Ukrainian Defensive War against the Russian Invasion - Mark IV: The Partitioning of Discussion

Haven't tried parsing through what all was talked about today, but mostly sounded like the US went on about sanctions can be lifted after war ends and everyone wants elections when things are settled, which I'm not sure is that unreasonable.

Russia went on with its usual wishlist, but I don't see how it'd work if the US really wants to get anything regarding those mineral rights since that'd require Russia not occupying Ukraine and the US having some sort of security forces in the region. So unless the US is giving up on being paid back for the lend-lease deals or getting future payments from the region, they'd have to be trying to push back on some of Russia's demands.

And if they give up on the mineral rights then Trump ends up in a similar position as the failures in the Middle East where he's said repeatedly we should have gotten the oil. So I'm feeling like watching over the next few days/weeks for what all else comes out.
 
I was listening to an interview with the head of the Azov Ideology Department who is a former University professor. He was asked what the ideology of Azov was and he said that they don't say "Ideology" anymore, they now say "Corporate Culture" because some people in society view the term "Ideology" negatively.

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"Did you not get the memo? Western media is coming through to film an interview and the boss does not want any Swastika flags hanging around the office for at least the next 24 hours."
 
Rumors that the EU is prepping a 700 Billion dollar aid package.
For comparison, that would dwarf the amount already sent. And eclipse US contributions by 7 to 1. More, if you don't count what was sent to weapons manufacturers.
Except for the civilian DIYers who're continuously supplying drones, drone parts and casings for bomblets. Everything else by the euro govts is still arriving in penny packets for the near immediate future.
 
Except for the civilian DIYers who're continuously supplying drones, drone parts and casings for bomblets. Everything else by the euro govts is still arriving in penny packets for the near immediate future.
Czechia's shells (coordinated by them mostly) arrive regularly as they have to. Aid announcements are good, but the Congressional aid took a year to arrive. Words can be good to raise morale tho.

Trump saying of Ukraine: 'You should never have started it. You could've made a deal', after the Saudi meeting might be a notable of words that harm. It's a grotesquely wrong statement. Again early days. Actions not words count most.
 
Honestly, what's the fucking play at this point?
Trump did say yesterday he would not object to European peace keepers in Ukraine. His goal is to make Russia Europe's problem instead of an American problem. He also said he would not remove American troops from Europe too. A lot of people don't listen to everything Trump says, but focus on the dumb shit he says (which is a lot at times) so they miss some of the other tidbits that are important.
 
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Haven't tried parsing through what all was talked about today, but mostly sounded like the US went on about sanctions can be lifted after war ends and everyone wants elections when things are settled, which I'm not sure is that unreasonable.
Nothing that's been said is unreasonable, and everyone focus on the Planned End State (lifting tariffs/Elections) and not the Conditions for that state to come about(after the war ends) and also don't notice there's no Timeline for them to be implemented (it could be when the ink dries, it could be Russia gvien a 10 year plan for sanctions relief.) because that's not what creates clickbait headlines nor gets that seratonin rush.

A lot of people don't listen to everything Trump says, but focus on the dumb shit he says (which is a lot at times) so they miss some of the other tidbits that are important.
SAD! Many such cases.

The Hungarians will veto is as usual.
Frenchgigabrains insert a clause that 10% of the aid will use Hungarian cargo rail for deliveries. Hungarian objections vanish in a puff of graft.

Except for the civilian DIYers who're continuously supplying drones, drone parts and casings for bomblets. Everything else by the euro govts is still arriving in penny packets for the near immediate future.
That's another good point, per my Timeline thing above. IF TRUE 700 billion over how many years?
I don't think the US has actually maxed out any of the approved Ukraine aid package ceilings.
 
Well fuck.
I hope the EU can uncock itself and do something good, or at least this leads to proper cleaning up of Europe so we can be the bulwark against the uncivilized hordes that we are supposed to be. Proper military spending will make fortress Europe a reality.
I did not think I would live to see the day that America became the biggest pussies in the world who, literally right now, is driving more and more business into the hands of their direct enemies.

Russia's primary goal is to break the Western hegemony so they can use their lesser power to get what they want and where the West can not provide a strong counterpoint.
So Trump has pissed off the Europeans, who are too passive but have a massive economy, so if they don't follow Americans' lead, it is far easier to ignore American influences as you still have access to a rich market.

Growing up with American movies, culture, and everything. That I would see the day that Americans would turn full bitch boy pussy is sad.
I don't want to do more business with China, but hey, at least I can have a bit of hope that the EU can unfuck itself. But at this point, who the fuck knows.

The West. We had a good run.
 
Not maxed out but not much space left before hitting the ceiling. For America that particular ball is in Trump's court now. With roughly half of the U.S. aid supposedly not reaching Ukraine, damn near certain Trump is not going to send any more aid until after his DOGE team find out where the missing aid went to.
You stop getting your "news" from Russian bot farms. We know where the aid went. It was spent on building American factories, procuring weapons for the US military and some was spent on American military research projects.
 
A lot of people don't listen to everything Trump says, but focus on the dumb shit he says (which is a lot at times) so they miss some of the other tidbits that are important.
Dumb and important are not mutually exclusive when the US President makes the egregious claim that Ukraine started the war. This isn't only a complete rewriting of history which plays directly into the hands of Russian state propaganda, but is perhaps the worst insult one can possibly make to the Ukrainian people who have fought and suffered terribly at the hands of Russian war crimes for the past 3 years.

It is immensely charitable to write this off as an offhanded comment which will bear no relation to future negotiation, because in the world of international diplomacy, a public statement like this amounts to a diplomatic concession. People are absolutely right to call Trump out for this, because whatever his true intentions may be, the practical reality is that he is acting as an appeaser to Putin and Russia.
 
It is immensely charitable to write this off as an offhanded comment which will bear no relation to future negotiation
It's not merely charitable.
If someone finds themselves having to handwave away 99% of the statements made and actions taken, then most likely the framework they interpret things through is wrong, and they need to come up with a new theory of the underlying mechanics.
 
So, has anything actually come from these negotiations, or is it just noise currently?
They were fundamentally a negotiation to normalise communications between the US and Russia. All that has been released has been "four principles", which amount to: open US and Russian embassies, appoint negotiation teams, start to discuss potential post-ceasefire economic issues (i.e. what is necessary to lift sanctions), and commit to future talks. In other words, establishing a framework in which to commence the ceasefire negotiations.

Then Trump said some loud things, because he likes to throw out off-the-cuff oddities, and everyone has latched on to that. The risk is that Trump has been listening to the wrong people, which wouldn't be unprecedented, but there's not yet any proof he's about to carry out all the lurid fantasies of the ziggers and TDS-afflicted.

The negotiations themselves seemed to have been the bare minimum necessary to keep Russia engaged. If they got out a map and re-drew the borders of Ukraine between them, they're keeping very quiet about it.
 
There are competing articles coming out, opinion piece and otherwise, about how Ukraine doesn't really have minerals worth talking about and how it does.

Rare Earths in Ukraine? No, Only Scorched Earth.​



What Ukraine has is scorched earth; what it doesn’t have is rare earths. Surprisingly, many people — not least, US President Donald Trump — seem convinced the country has a rich mineral endowment. It’s a folly.

It's not the first time that Washington has gotten its geology wrong in a war zone. Back in 2010, the US announced it had discovered $1 trillion of untapped mineral deposits in Afghanistan, including some crucial for electric-car batteries, like lithium. The Pentagon went as far as describing Afghanistan as “the Saudi Arabia of lithium.”

All very important stuff, the kind of geo-economic shock that redraws the global political map. But it was, as many said then, and as everyone knows now, a complete fantasy. The same applies to Ukraine’s alleged riches.

If the focus in Afghanistan was largely copper and lithium, key to the electrification of everything, the spotlight in Ukraine is on rare earths, a collection of 17 elements that high school chemistry students would remember for their tongue-twisting names. The list includes the likes of praseodymium, dysprosium and promethium.

For Trump, the importance of rare-earth reserves comes from the fact that China dominates global supply. In tiny amounts, the elements are used in exotic alloys. Though often presented as essential to high-tech applications and weapons production, their uses are far more prosaic. Dyson Ltd., a popular British maker of home appliances, boasts that it uses the element neodymium in the magnets of its vacuum cleaners, for example, so they “spin up to five times faster than a Formula One engine.”

The hype about the Ukrainian rare earths began with Ukrainians themselves. Desperate to find a way to engage Trump, they miscalculated presenting the then-incoming president a “victory plan” in November that talked up — way, way up — the potential of the country’s mineral resources. Soon, they lost control of the narrative.

On Feb. 3, Trump emphatically said the Ukrainians had “very valuable rare earths.” Always keen to be perceived as a dealmaker, he added: "We're looking to do a deal with Ukraine where they're going to secure what we're giving them with their rare earths and other things." He doubled down a few days later, telling Fox News on Feb. 11 about his talks with Ukrainian officials: “I told them that I want the equivalent like $500 billion worth of rare earth.”

I was puzzled. To the best of my knowledge, Ukraine has no significant rare-earth deposits other than small scandium mines. The US Geological Survey, an authority on the matter, doesn’t list the country as holding any reserves. Neither does any other database commonly used in the mining business.

Simply put, “follow the money” doesn’t work here. At best, the value of all the world’s rare-earth production rounds to $15 billion a year — emphasis on “a year.” That’s equal to the value of just two days of global oil output. Even if Ukraine had gigantic deposits, they wouldn’t be that valuable in geo-economic terms.

Say that Ukraine was able, as if by magic, to produce 20% of the world’s rare earths. That would equal to about $3 billion annually. To reach the $500 billion mooted by Trump, the US would need to secure 150-plus years of Ukrainian output. Pure nonsense.

I see two possibilities: that Trump is right — and I’m very wrong — and Ukraine has, in fact, lots of rare earths; or that he misspoke, and rather than “rare earths” he meant other minerals. Or perhaps he took the small potential of a single element — scandium2 — and extrapolated.

Let’s explore the second option, because at least it would make some sense. While Ukraine doesn’t have commercial rare-earth deposits, it does have mines housing other minerals. Before its war with Russia, Ukraine produced significant amounts iron ore and coal. Neither are strategic, but the country had been making decent money from both. Problem? Some mines lie now in territory conquered by Russia.

Maybe Trump conflated “rare earths” with the much broader concept of “critical minerals.” Of the latter, Ukraine has some commercial mines of titanium and gallium. Both are fairly valuable and have some strategic importance, but then again, controlling either wouldn’t alter geo-economics. And they certainly aren’t worth Trump’s expressed $500 billion.

Still, the American president steadfastly referred to rare earths; not once, but several times. So then, perhaps he knows something the commodity world doesn’t. But I found no credible source that says Ukraine is brimming with reserves.

Every document someone has pointed out to me regurgitates the same conspiracy-theory claims found on the blogosphere. They tend to mistake accumulations of some rare-earth-bearing minerals as equating with a commercial mine. Many highlight the Novopoltavske deposit, discovered by the Soviets in 1970, as a potential source. While tiny amounts of rare earths are present there, digging them out seems impossible — hence why the site remains an unproductive deposit rather than a mine more than 50 years after its discovery. The Ukrainian government has described Novopoltavske as “relatively difficult” to mine and said that any rare-earth yield would be “off balance,” meaning that it’s not economical to exploit them at current prices. Worse, the mineralogy goes against it: The host source is a mineral that makes extracting the elements very hard.

The worst of the pamphlets claiming Ukraine has a rare-earths cache bears the North Atlantic Treaty Organization imprint and has been widely shared as the “Trump-is-right” proof. It was produced in December 2024 by the NATO Energy Security Centre of Excellence, based in Lithuania. Although affiliated with the military alliance, bearing its name and logo, the entity and its counterparts are autonomous bodies outside the command chain. The document is provocative: “Ukraine emerges as a key potential supplier of rare earth metals such as titanium, lithium, beryllium, manganese, gallium, uranium…” The list should ring every alarm. Anyone with a passing knowledge of chemistry knows none of those minerals are rare earths.

Why NATO’s imprint is attached to the report, which appears devoid of basic fact-checking, is beyond comprehension. A spokesperson told me the views reflected those of the author rather than NATO — something the document doesn’t say. The report, uncorrected, is still available online.

If that’s the source Trump’s advisers used to convince him of Ukraine’s rare-earth riches, it would be depressing — global politics based on copy and paste. It would suit the Kafkaesque year of 2025 well.


What are Ukraine’s rare minerals and why is Trump eyeing them?​

The Trump administration has floated a deal that would secure U.S. access to half of Ukraine’s mineral resources, amid a broader set of negotiations intended to end Russia’s war and guarantee future U.S. support to Kyiv.

Although Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky rejected the proposal, his officials have continued to mull alternatives, according to Ukrainian officials. Days after the U.S. proposal was introduced, Zelensky said he discussed “the joint development of critical minerals and rare earth resources” with U.S. senators in Munich.

The proposal has brought renewed attention to Ukraine’s untapped reserves of lithium and graphite, critical for producing electric car batteries, as well as Europe’s largest uranium ore deposits, which Zelensky himself has raised as business opportunities for allies in his vision for postwar Ukraine.


Here’s what to know about Ukraine’s mineral resources and why they are so valuable.

In a meeting in Kyiv last week with Zelensky, Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent floated a proposal that Ukraine hand over 50 percent of its mineral resources, according to officials familiar with the discussions, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to talk frankly about the sensitive issue.

The details of the White House’s original request, including a list of the resources and the nature of the rights requested, have not been made public. According to one Ukrainian adviser, the U.S. proposal focused on securing access to Ukrainian deposits of rare metals and critical materials, including lithium, graphite and uranium.

Bessent said the proposal would deepen economic cooperation between the two nations while guaranteeing future U.S. support for postwar Ukraine. “The more the investments the U.S. has here, the more security it will give the Ukrainian people,” Bessent said, describing the proposal as a “long-term security shield” for Kyiv.

The elements reportedly included in the proposed U.S. mineral deal differed from those referenced by Trump earlier this month, when he sparked confusion by expressing interest in Ukraine’s “rare earth” minerals. “We’re looking to do a deal with Ukraine, where they’re going to secure what we’re giving them with their rare earth and other things,” Trump said.
However, Ukraine does not possess noteworthy quantities of “rare earths,” an official category of 17 elements used as high-tech magnets to power cellphones, electric vehicle batteries and certain defense systems.

Which rare metals and critical materials does Ukraine possess?​


Ukraine’s rare metal and critical material deposits include some of the world’s largest reserves of titanium and fields of untapped lithium. Collectively, they are estimated to be worth trillions of dollars, although their precise value and distribution across the country are not publicly known.


The European Commission has described Ukraine as a potential source of more than 20 critical raw materials, including deposits of kaolin, gallium, manganese and germanium. They are also of interest to Russia, with analysts estimating that Moscow has seized more than $12 trillion worth of Ukrainian energy assets, metals and minerals (that figure includes oil and coal deposits). One of Ukraine’s key lithium reserves is only about 10 miles from the front line.
Although Ukraine does not produce a dominant global share of these materials, demand for them is expected to increase over the next decade — potentially causing their value to spike.
The U.S. Geological Survey considers the minerals lithium and graphite to be “critical to the U.S. economy and national security.” China — the United States’ primary economic rival on the global stage — is the world’s top producer of graphite and processes vast amounts of lithium.


“These three elements are at the epicentre of the energy transition and have significant strategic and industrial value,” Pierre Josso, deputy director of the U.K. Critical Minerals Intelligence Center, said in an email Tuesday, referring to lithium, graphite and uranium.
All three, he noted, are expected to become more valuable in the coming years, as demand increasingly outstrips supply.
Josso also noted that although Ukraine hasn’t produced any gold in the 21st century, it has estimated geological gold reserves of close to 3,000 metric tons — roughly equal to the United States’ reserves.

Lithium​

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According to Ukraine’s State Geological Service, Ukraine has an estimated 500,000 metric tons of lithium reserves — among Europe’s largest deposits. The soft, silvery metal extends the life of batteries and enables them to hold a longer charge, making them crucial for the powerful batteries used to power EVs.


“Lithium is coming from a very low base of supply,” Frances Wall, a mineralogy professor at England’s University of Exeter, said in a phone interview Tuesday.
For years, she said, global supply chains had required lithium in only small quantities for smaller gadgets. Since demand for EVs has soared, however, there has been greater pressure to find new sources of lithium.
Wall projected that lithium demand could increase by over tenfold globally in the next decade. “Lots more new deposits will need to be brought into play, and that’s why everyone is looking for lithium deposits,” she said.

Uranium​

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This naturally radioactive element is used as the main source of fuel for nuclear reactors. According to the International Atomic Energy Agency, an egg-size amount of uranium fuel can provide the same amount of power as 88 metric tons of coal. It is valuable, but it is not considered rare.


According to the World Nuclear Association, Ukraine possesses the largest uranium ore deposits in Europe, amounting to over 107,000 metric tons.

Graphite​

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Graphite is a soft form of carbon used in almost all electric car batteries, as well as semiconductors and nuclear reactors. Wall explained that graphite is used in the anodes in lithium-ion batteries.
“Every battery needs graphite, and without that, it’s not going to work,” she said. “We’ll need lots more than we’ve used before.”
Before the conflict began, the U.S. Geological Survey counted Ukraine as one of the world’s top 10 graphite producers.
At one mine in central Ukraine’s Kirovohrad region, mining firm BGV has forecast the deposit to contain 500 million metric tons of graphite.

Titanium​

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Ukraine has some of the world’s largest reserves of titanium, a silver metal that is as strong as steel but 45 percent lighter. Its most critical modern use is by the aerospace industry, but it can also be used in a range of products including paints and body implants.


In 2023, the U.S. Geological Survey estimated that Ukraine had 8.4 million metric tons of titanium reserves. As of September of last year, Ukraine was a leading provider of rutile titanium to the United States, accounting for 8 percent of imports.

Beryllium​

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BGV operates a beryllium mine in northwestern Ukraine’s Zhytomyr region, which it said has proven reserves of 5,512 metric tons of the rare metal.
Beryllium’s range of applications include use in computers and cellphones, medical imaging equipment, automobile components and airplane equipment.

So sounds like an argument over how you define rare whatever.
 
Tad bit off topic but why is it the other thread on the war in Ukraine a borderline a Russian circle jerk? There's some worthwhile conversation to be had in both but in the other one it seems to be mostly people talking about how Russia is absolutely in the right and the Ukies are all hohol piggers that deserve to be ground in to dust. I understand of course having a pro Ukr or Rus spin but to that extent is surprising. I'm not advocating being a fence sitter but not a lot of people seem to really look at it objectively. Maybe I'm just retarded but it feels like twitter almost.
 
Locksneed bros...:
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🇺🇸🤔 US defense stocks are falling.

Over the month:
• Lockheed Martin: -16.41%
• Northrop Grumman: -13%
• General Dynamics: -10.93%
• Raytheon Technologies: -2.66%

European defense stocks are rising:
🇩🇪 Rheinmetall: +36.4%
🇫🇷 Thales: +22.66%
🇬🇧 BAE Systems: +10.17%
🇪🇺 Airbus: +5.85%

❗️The fall in US defense stocks may be related to news that the US Department of Defense is preparing for cuts ahead of the audit of DOGE, led by Musk.

‼️ In contrast, European defense stocks are rising as investors have positive expectations for increased European defense spending.
Source.

Germany delivers new military aid package to Ukraine (archive), 17.02.2025:
This private information is unavailable to guests due to policies enforced by third-parties.
The latest update to the list (February 17, 2025).
 
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So sounds like an argument over how you define rare whatever.
They're clearly mixing up "rare earths" and scarce minerals. A lot of people think "rare earths" just means they exist in small quantities, or think that it's a synonym for rare (as in small and hard to find) mineral deposits, like lithium or cobalt. Rare earths are called rare because they don't form easily mined deposits, but instead are "rarefied"; they are spread out across vast volumes, in compounds forms that aren't easily mined by themselves. They are generally extracted alongside some other mineral, or harvested from slag and run-off ponds.

Tad bit off topic but why is it the other thread on the war in Ukraine a borderline a Russian circle jerk? There's some worthwhile conversation to be had in both but in the other one it seems to be mostly people talking about how Russia is absolutely in the right and the Ukies are all hohol piggers that deserve to be ground in to dust.
They've broken their brains with culture war bullshit. Russia (the multicultural mafia empire where corruption is universal, the military literally runs on homosexual buckbreaking, and AIDS and alcoholism are rampant) pretends to be the saviour of trad white christianity and is opposed by the globohomo niggerfaggot rainbow tranny west. Ukraine is supported by the west, so it must be ontologically evil, and Russia is going to cleanse of the nazis.
 
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