YABookgate

[WelperHelper99]

Hey I got a rejection letter from them too! lol

(Alas, robots are not seen as marginalized enough yet. We're still waiting for Robo Lincoln to free us.)

Is "Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction" a big deal? My experience is with agents. If I sound bitter... yeah.

 

[Gnillik Yot]

How many rejection letters have you had? Just asking.

I'm not the one you're asking, but I'll answer it anyway:

Rejections: At least 89, but I lost count.

Acceptances: 10

Most of these are short stories

 

[asceticHedonist]

That's one of the nicest rejections I've seen. Nevertheless. You know there's a problem. Yet you refuse to acknowledge it. You shift the blame to men when it's obvious that it's the mongolids in charge of publishing that are the problem.

To be clear, that wasn't the text of the rejection I received. What I actually received was much shorter, just a few sentences; but Finlay had three standard rejections he would send and elaborated on Twitter what each one meant.

I'm not sure what you think I'm not acknowledging. Could you clarify?

Here are the cluster of problems as I see them:

• the sit-down-and-shut-up model of education tempramentally favors girls (due to girls' prefrontal cortices developing slightly earlier)
• social justice ideology that pathologizes male behavior/thinking infecting teacher training
• scholarships for women—but not men—are allowed to exist despite US federal law outlawing gender-specific scholarships
• reinterpretation of Title IX beyond its original intent, the most egregious results of which can be seen in examples like the infamous Mattress Girl case at Columbia University among others.

These might not be the whole of the problem, but they create a pipeline issue where men are outnumbered at every level of post-secondary education and thus fewer go into publishing (not to mention publishing doesn't pay, so why bother if you can get a job on Wall Street or as an engineer). With fewer men behind the scenes in publishing, there are fewer men to select and promote books written by men for men and boys.

Is "Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction" a big deal? My experience is with agents. If I sound bitter... yeah.

They are the oldest continuously published F&SF magazine in America—possibly the world. In their heyday, they were a huge deal. Even now, in a time when most people don't even know such magazines exist, that one has been looked at as a standard to which the others aspire.

 

[asceticHedonist]

I'm not the one you're asking, but I'll answer it anyway:

Rejections: Around 89, but I lost count.

Acceptances: 10

Nice!

Where have you been published?

 

[Gnillik Yot]

Nice!

Where have you been published?

Nice try, buddy.

I'll give you one for free though: Hellbound Books.

 

[Flexo]

Is "Magazine of Fantasy and Science Fiction" a big deal? My experience is with agents. If I sound bitter... yeah.

Dunno how big of a deal it was - but it was one of my favorite story magazines out there. I think I still have a big stack of issues. I was subscribed for awhile.

 

[WelperHelper99]

be clear, that wasn't the text of the rejection I received. What I actually received was much shorter, just a few sentences; but Finlay had three standard rejections he would send and elaborated on Twitter what each one meant.

I see

I'm not sure what you think I'm not acknowledging. Could you clarify?

Here are the cluster of problems as I see them:

• the sit-down-and-shut-up model of education tempramentally favors girls (due to girls' prefrontal cortices developing slightly earlier)
• social justice ideology that pathologizes male behavior/thinking infecting teacher training
• scholarships for women—but not men—are allowed to exist despite US federal law outlawing gender-specific scholarships
• reinterpretation of Title IX beyond its original intent, the most egregious results of which can be seen in examples like the infamous Mattress Girl case at Columbia University among others.

These might not be the whole of the problem, but they create a pipeline issue where men are outnumbered at every level of post-secondary education and thus fewer go into publishing (not to mention publishing doesn't pay, so why bother if you can get a job on Wall Street or as an engineer). With fewer men behind the scenes in publishing, there are fewer men to select and promote books written by men for men and boys.

At least half the agents I submitted to were men if memory serves. There are men behind the scenes. The problem is the system surrounding them. I can't tell you how many times on agents blogs I would see "looking for black/LGBT/ whatever" creators or something to that effect. You have a idea of it. You don't understand the scale I think.

They are the oldest continuously published F&SF magazine in America—possibly the world. In their heyday, they were a huge deal. Even now, in a time when most people don't even know such magazines exist, that one has been looked at as a standard to which the others aspire

Interesting.

Dunno how big of a deal it was - but it was one of my favorite story magazines out there. I think I still have a big stack of issues. I was subscribed for awhile.

I guess I'll look them up.

 

[Raconteur Press]

I should probably give you this advice, although I don't know who needs to hear it. I am in Discord servers with dozens of other "Slush readers" (basically what @Fandom Pulse used to be) of indie magazines. And let me tell you something, while it is true that there is a bias towards women, that bias is nothing compared to the bias against conservatives in general.

If you have an account on X where you're retweeting Devon Erickson, or laughing at Elon Musk owning the libs, and you use that account to talk about your writing, you WILL be found! I know of one person who made it into the finalist round of a cosmic horror anthology, only to be eliminated when one slush reader found a "red flag" that this author was subscribed to X with a blue checkmark.

When the reader saw that the finalist in question was retweeting Devon Erickson, the reader announced she/he wasn't even going to read the story, and the finalist was rejected and then BANNED from submitting through Duotrope to that press again.

So if you really want to be published in anthologies and magazines, I recommend not having an X account at all.

 

[asceticHedonist]

At least half the agents I submitted to were men if memory serves. There are men behind the scenes. The problem is the system surrounding them. I can't tell you how many times on agents blogs I would see "looking for black/LGBT/ whatever" creators or something to that effect. You have a idea of it. You don't understand the scale I think.

I don't doubt you. I looked at a lot of agent wishlists over the years, while brainstorming novels. I never got the impression any of them were intersted in what I wanted to write. When I took the advice to look at the agents of authors I admired, I found well-established agents with stables of well-established authors—ofen, they had associates working for them who had that same bullshit wishlist.

I sometimes wonder if this isn't all an artifact of the economics of publishing. It's always been a rich person's hobby-career. Publishing and writing have only really paid livable salaries through part of the twentieth century (at the lower/entry levels), so a lot of people in the industry get their start while living off of family/spouse money. In that context, it makes sense that it would be taken over by the luxury beliefs of Ivy Leaguers.

 

[COME ON OUT YOU RAPIST]

Sorry, I'm unclear on who "he" is in the first sentence.

The guy I was replying to. Obviously there's just writers who haven't found the right publisher or haven't struck the right cord with any audience. At the same time, anyone who denies that the current state of publishing is in the toilet is either gaslighting or delusional. This man said it best:

What's left of male-oriented literature is in self-publishing. Without the support of publishing houses, only the lowest common-denominator litRPG slop can survive. Palahniuk, Ellis, Alan Furst, William Gibson, and Neal Stephenson, these guys wouldn't survive if they were starting today (maybe Stephenson would find a way to sniper shot his way onto Amazon's bestseller list, because he'd turn that into an interesting reverse-engineering problem).

Self-publishing as it currently exists doesn't support quality writing. It moves too fast and gives too little. And right now, there's nowhere else for male writers who don't have MFAs or someone else's money to live off of.

Even if I disagree with a lot of what he said after. Women genuinely don't make good writers 99% of the time. Yes, I know Florence Nightingale existed. She'd agree with me.

 

[asceticHedonist]

The guy I was replying to.

You mean @Space Police or me?

I get the impression Space Police is of the vaginal variation of the human species as evidenced by the mention of "men" complaining. For all the promotion of diversity in the world, the only two that matter in intellectual and creative pursuits are ideological diversity and sexual diversity, for exactly the reason that progressives are loathe to admit—men and women think differently.

Every other kind of sociopolitical diversity is just window dressing.

 

[WelperHelper99]

I don't doubt you. I looked at a lot of agent wishlists over the years, while brainstorming novels. I never got the impression any of them were intersted in what I wanted to write. When I took the advice to look at the agents of authors I admired, I found well-established agents with stables of well-established authors—ofen, they had associates working for them who had that same bullshit wishlist.

I sometimes wonder if this isn't all an artifact of the economics of publishing. It's always been a rich person's hobby-career. Publishing and writing have only really paid livable salaries through part of the twentieth century (at the lower/entry levels), so a lot of people in the industry get their start while living off of family/spouse money. In that context, it makes sense that it would be taken over by the luxury beliefs of Ivy Leaguers.

First I apologize for my mood. That was rude of me.

As for the economics of publishing, eh. There were times where books were treated literally as toilet paper- the penny dreadfuls come to mind. You were basically writing all year to break even, but it was a living. I would argue it was with the rise of movies and TV that the author pool in the book market shrunk. You didn't need a million writers anymore, everyone is watching The Brady Bunch now. The market got more selective, and over time, even MORE incestuous.

 

[COME ON OUT YOU RAPIST]

You mean @Space Police or me?

I get the impression Space Police is of the vaginal variation of the human species as evidenced by the mention of "men" complaining. For all the promotion of diversity in the world, the only two that matter in intellectual and creative pursuits are ideological diversity and sexual diversity, for exactly the reason that progressives are loathe to admit—men and women think differently.

Every other kind of sociopolitical diversity is just window dressing.

Not you. I understand dismissing all womens' literature as "You're only getting your foot in the door because of your gender" sounds like the bitter and delusional griping of hopeless wannabes, and I'm sure this has been the case many times before, but it's undeniable these large publishing houses are plagued by the same illness as western academia. A sickness I'll summarize as "woke", mostly because that word is being overused right now by people who are just as insufferable. But one side being annoying faggots doesn't mean the other group of annoying faggots do not also exist. The problem in literature (specifically publishing) right now is not misogynists. As you said, many published male authors who succeeded in the past would be passed over nowadays for idiotic and prejudiced reasons.

 

[Space Police]

Because there's been a concentrated effort by publishing companies to not produce anything boys, teen boys or men would enjoy reading.

And that's because there's very little demand from them to begin with. It's dumb to invest in a market that's ignoring you already when you could make much more from a market that does care about you.

If you're a male and read as a hobby it's extremely likely that you are digging through the annals of history for material, not reading new releases.

I always did that. Sturgeon's Law holds true -- for every Heinlein and Bradbury, you get tons of L. Ron Hubbards (and I unironically like some of his stories, so he's more mediocre but fun than bad).

What's left of male-oriented literature is in self-publishing. Without the support of publishing houses, only the lowest common-denominator litRPG slop can survive.

I'll grant you, this is a big issue that needs to be fixed, but the same would have happened with big publishing houses. These are corporations at the end of the day, and all they care about is making money. No matter how many passionate people are in there, they'll gladly pass up the next Lovecraft for the same slop they know will sell. Maybe this wouldn't be an issue if there were no ebooks.

but it's undeniable these large publishing houses are plagued by the same illness as western academia.

I have never seen this problem in academia. Outside certain fields like gender studies, you won't get discriminated against for being male or white or whatever. The extent of any DEI or woke stuff is an occasional seminar or journal or required course (that's not discrimination, and it can be interesting depending on what you take). It's not like you'll be told "Sorry, we know your paper has useful information, but we got a paper from a disabled black lesbian with kids, so we can't publish you" or that you won't be allowed to get a degree if you're a straight white man. It's like claiming academia is biased towards Asians when Asians work harder in school because their parents push that.

A sickness I'll summarize as "woke", mostly because that word is being overused right now by people who are just as insufferable. But one side being annoying faggots doesn't mean the other group of annoying faggots do not also exist. The problem in literature (specifically publishing) right now is not misogynists. As you said, many published male authors who succeeded in the past would be passed over nowadays for idiotic and prejudiced reasons.

"Woke" is only a thing because of profit. There may be some lower-level people who think they're changing the world, but that's never the real reason. For example, people say cartoons are woke now, but behind every bad bean mouth cartoon is a nepobaby and a guaranteed Twitter fanbase that will rewatch every single episode for meme screencaps and Tiktok edits and buy any overpriced, poorly-made merch. It's not a coordinated effort to drive straight white men out of society or whatever.

 

[Flexo]

And that's because there's very little demand from them to begin with. It's dumb to invest in a market that's ignoring you already when you could make much more from a market that does care about you.

It's dumb and yet companies for the last half decade have been spending tons of investment in markets ignoring them instead of the one that does.

Star Wars is by far the most glaring obvious example where they have been aiming for (apparently) the black lesbian market instead of the billions of males (and MANY straight women) who have loved it for decades.

 

[Krokodil Overdose]

Outside certain fields like gender studies, you won't get discriminated against for being male or white or whatever.

The Sokal Hoax and Grievance Studies Affair demonstrated this to be not the case. There is a proven strain of groupthink within the academic community that they will absolutely gatekeep to make sure only approved opinions/people get published.

It's like claiming academia is biased towards Asians when Asians work harder in school because their parents push that.

My brother in Christ, the recent affirmative action Supreme Court case was literally about this- an Asian needed to do like 300 points better on the SAT to get the same odds of a spot as a black.

I'll grant you, this is a big issue that needs to be fixed, but the same would have happened with big publishing houses. These are corporations at the end of the day, and all they care about is making money.

They already make money off their back catalogs, you don't need to cultivate new talent when you can publish evergreen authors like Tolkien, Jordan, Card, etc. So it's absolutely possible for this monopolistic squatting in the popular culture to lead to all the dysfunction of monopoly.

 

[COME ON OUT YOU RAPIST]

And that's because there's very little demand from them to begin with. It's dumb to invest in a market that's ignoring you already when you could make much more from a market that does care about you.

I'm not tempted to read any more. Cutting off one of the two genders because "Why would a man ever care about books?" is a top contender for dumbest thing I've read on this website.

 

[Alexander Thaut]

I'm not tempted to read any more. Cutting off one of the two genders because "Why would a man ever care about books?" is a top contender for dumbest thing I've read on this website.

also acting like video games and movies cater towards men anymore when we've consistently had that topic pop up over and over and everyone agrees that USAID funding basically gave Western AAA devs and Hollywood free reign to make things as unappealing to the average dude as possible.

The Sokal Hoax and Grievance Studies Affair demonstrated this to be not the case. There is a proven strain of groupthink within the academic community that they will absolutely gatekeep to make sure only approved opinions/people get published.

Yep. I've literally seen midwits who just repeat trendy points and fail upwards. They just have to, at least, be a woman. Or a faggot.

My brother in Christ, the recent affirmative action Supreme Court case was literally about this- an Asian needed to do like 300 points better on the SAT to get the same odds of a spot as a black.

Yeah, we've had smart jeets listing themselves as black to get into med school.

They already make money off their back catalogs, you don't need to cultivate new talent when you can publish evergreen authors like Tolkien, Jordan, Card, etc. So it's absolutely possible for this monopolistic squatting in the popular culture to lead to all the dysfunction of monopoly.

Pretty much. It's why Heinlein stays in print even though you know the lefties would cut him outta history if they could. (Card too, but Heinlein's kinda the "classic" SF writer that gets Overton Window'd into retroactively becoming a Nazi)

But, to be fair, with Baen getting fucked up and all that, I'd like at least one example of traditional publishing house that's still somewhat known for a niche in SF/F to exist. Maybe it's too much to ask. The SFBC is still around but they sure don't do anything cool.

 

[asceticHedonist]

I'll grant you, this is a big issue that needs to be fixed, but the same would have happened with big publishing houses. These are corporations at the end of the day, and all they care about is making money. No matter how many passionate people are in there, they'll gladly pass up the next Lovecraft for the same slop they know will sell. Maybe this wouldn't be an issue if there were no ebooks.

Setting aside the point others have made that publishers rely on their back catalogues, publishers do seem to prop up a bunch of unpopular "prestige" books or crap like Lindsay Ellis's novel, which, if I recall, sold an abysmal amount but got on the NYT "Bestseller" list.

As much as I dislike Larry Correia, he regularly points out that he sells far more books than a lot of the SF/F award winner types. I'd love to see BookScan numbers for his book alongside something by the likes of N. K. Jemisin.

everyone agrees that USAID funding basically gave Western AAA devs and Hollywood free reign to make things as unappealing to the average dude as possible.

I haven't paid very close attention. Did USAID give money to publishers and game studios? Where did you hear this?

 

[asceticHedonist]

First I apologize for my mood. That was rude of me.

Maybe the Internet has desensitized me, but I didn't detect rudeness so much as a bit of defensiveness, presumably at the impression of being misread. It's all good, man. I know as well as anyone how hard it is to bear in mind that there's a person behind the avatar.