Argue about which coding languages are bloatware (it's all of them)

[canalCrab]

I disagree, it's elegant and intimate. Like you're almost talking to the CPU.

Assembly is the lowest I've personally gone in terms of "close to the hardware". But there are a lot of fun things you can do when you actually talk to the cpu (basically writing out the program directly, instead of using an assembler. There are a lot of hidden/duplicate (with different encodings) instructions you can abuse to make a disassembler give up.

In fact, higher-level languages are usually a pain to read (but easier to write which is why they're so popular)

Depends on how high level. IMO f# (and ML-likes in general) are really pleasant to read and write.

 

[Meat Target]

I believe upper echelon fell for the insurrection January 6th meme too.

He also treated Kris Tyson with kid-gloves, and flipped more shit about Mr. Beast being a fraud than he and his buddy grooming minors.

I think he went off the deep end after bending the knee to Mario Nawfal's lawsuit.

(For the uninitiated, Nawfal is some grifting rugjockey Musk fanboy who bullies people with his obscene amount of Fuck You money. Think Ian Miles Cheong, but more vindictive, narcissistic, and litigious).

But that's neither here nor there.

Assembly is the lowest I've personally gone in terms of "close to the hardware".

Isn't that the language Chris Sawyer used to write Rollercoaster Tycoon? I don't know jackshit about programming.

 

[Hakase Shinonome]

Isn't that the language Chris Sawyer used to write Rollercoaster Tycoon? I don't know jackshit about programming.

Yes, but he's fucking autistic for doing so. He's not normal.

 

[Yapping1337]

Low-level languages are better if you want to learn to think programmatically because there is very little abstraction, you have to learn fundamentals of programming else you literally can't program anything.
C is a perfectly fine language as a beginner, or if you want a high-level option, C# is pretty good for a beginner.
Pick TypeScript if you want to write JavaScript, at least that way you will have types to teach you some basic fundamentals that are useful in most programming.

I don't really get the idea that shitting out code faster somehow teaches you anything. There are two hard parts about programming, thinking and muscle memory, and a lot of people never learn the thinking part.

 

[Meat Target]

Yes, but he's fucking autistic for doing so. He's not normal.

Are you implying that's a bad thing? It still holds up 25 years later.

And I already figured he's autistic. He toured amusement parks around the world for research. It's the good, impressive kind of autism.

 

[Frightened Rabbit]

Low-level languages are better if you want to learn to think programmatically because there is very little abstraction...

The very first problem when you teach someone who has 0 knowledge on programming, is to have them think about how a computer does things at a high level, if you jump into the fire fully at the starting line, you'll overwhelm a person.
Yes it's effective, but you could have much easely used a higher level language to teach the very basic fundamentals and then applied it to a much lower language and polished the starting concepts into actionable knowledge. The earlier will scare anyone who doesn't have a pretty strong will, the latter will more easely let someone know how thing's work before challenging them.

 

[canalCrab]

Isn't that the language Chris Sawyer used to write Rollercoaster Tycoon? I don't know jackshit about programming.

Assembly isn't really one language. But rather a label for a specific level of abstraction (not a lot of abstraction) where most instructions map effectively 1:1 to actual cpu instructions. And yes, it's what sawyer used.
There are 2 major "dialects" of assembly (intel and at&T)
and each cpu has it's own variation of those. For example ARM cpu's are a "risc" (reduced instruction set) architecture, where you use a lot of simple instruction, where x86 is a cisc (complex instruction set) architecture where you use fewer, but more powerful instructions.

And depending on each specific cpu there may be some available and others not be. (Like SIMD (single instruction multiple data) where you operate on multiple values at once) So the assembly you write for each specific cpu model can look quite different from other models still.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assembly_language

Low-level languages are better if you want to learn to think programmatically because there is very little abstraction, you have to learn fundamentals of programming else you literally can't program anything.
C is a perfectly fine language as a beginner, or if you want a high-level option, C# is pretty good for a beginner.
Pick TypeScript if you want to write JavaScript, at least that way you will have types to teach you some basic fundamentals that are useful in most programming.

I don't really get the idea that shitting out code faster somehow teaches you anything. There are two hard parts about programming, thinking and muscle memory, and a lot of people never learn the thinking part.

And if you use typescript, avoid "any" like the plague. Thats one of the very few strict pieces of advice I can give in relation to programming.

The very first problem when you teach someone who has 0 knowledge on programming, is to have them think about how a computer does things at a high level, if you jump into the fire fully at the starting line, you'll overwhelm a person.
Yes it's effective, but you could have much easely used a higher level language to teach the very basic fundamentals and then applied it to a much lower language and polished the starting concepts into actionable knowledge. The earlier will scare anyone who doesn't have a pretty strong will, the latter will more easely let someone know how thing's work before challenging them.

IME functional languages lend themselves the most to learning programming. Mutation is HARD to really wrap your head around.

 

[Der Fuhrry]

Depends on how high level. IMO f# (and ML-likes in general) are really pleasant to read and write.

I've only touched a little bit of SML and Ocaml long ago, and I think I agree with you on the "computer science level" but disagree on the "engineering level" if that makes sense. If you start asking questions like, "how does this look on the assembly level" and "what's the layout in memory" and so on, these languages are "hard to read". Also, language features like overloading, inheritance and generics can make the code hard to read because, say, a "+" operator might not be what it seems. I don't think being able to type your program in fewer characters is a readibility feature, but a writability feature.

 

[Nothing Is Written]

In fact, higher-level languages are usually a pain to read (but easier to write which is why they're so popular)

A pain to read insofar as you need to infer abstractions from the language, as opposed to being closer to the logic as you would in Assembly.

 

[Neodanthril]

Yes, but he's fucking autistic for doing so. He's not normal.

It was what he had experience with. He had been writing in assembly since the 80s and found modest success because he was able to write more efficient code than other languages which made a world of difference when you were working with hardware Of the day. Before going back to making his own games he ended up doing a lot of ports of arcade games to PC that were much more accurate to the original than competitors could come up with.

 

[ADHD Mate]

Yes, but he's fucking autistic for doing so. He's not normal.

When RollerCoaster Tycoon was developed writing assembly by hand wasn't that rare. Especially for someone like Sawyer who started in 80s.
It's like writing in C/C++ and then creating bindings for higher level language. Most programmers don't do it, but it happens.

I've only touched a little bit of SML and Ocaml long ago, and I think I agree with you on the "computer science level" but disagree on the "engineering level" if that makes sense. If you start asking questions like, "how does this look on the assembly level" and "what's the layout in memory" and so on, these languages are "hard to read". Also, language features like overloading, inheritance and generics can make the code hard to read because, say, a "+" operator might not be what it seems. I don't think being able to type your program in fewer characters is a readibility feature, but a writability feature.

Most probably should not ask those questions, as they are not that straightforward to answer nowadays. Also there is programming thread for those who want to discuss it further. Maybe not shit up Maldy's.

 

[Aurellia Spaghettellia]

The awful thing about programming discussions is this "nooo i prefer thiss!!1 yours is awful!!"
Ship your projects. Be kind to your fellow colleagues and clients.
Stop trying to find your identity on what syntax you like best.

 

[canalCrab]

I've only touched a little bit of SML and Ocaml long ago, and I think I agree with you on the "computer science level" but disagree on the "engineering level" if that makes sense. If you start asking questions like, "how does this look on the assembly level" and "what's the layout in memory" and so on, these languages are "hard to read". Also, language features like overloading, inheritance and generics can make the code hard to read because, say, a "+" operator might not be what it seems. I don't think being able to type your program in fewer characters is a readibility feature, but a writability feature.

I don't quite agree with you there. Sure, inheritance definitely tends to be more of a detriment than positive, but overloading and generics make the code easier to read, because you can have one function to iterate over any kind of list and do stuff with the element (the humble map). But obviously you can use those features to write absolutely unreadable code as well. Just IME, with functional languages you use the standard constructs most of the time (map, flatmap, filter, fold, etc) instead of relying on bespoke functions that are simpler to understand in isolation, but which are harder to understand in the big picture sense.

 

[Nothing Is Written]

The awful thing about programming discussions is this "nooo i prefer thiss!!1 yours is awful!!"
Ship your projects. Be kind to your fellow colleagues and clients.
Stop trying to find your identity on what syntax you like best.

Better yet: pick your language based on the intention of your project.

Automation? Python.

Game engines? C types.

Web? Java and PHP stacks etc.

Kernel scripts? Bash.

 

[Der Fuhrry]

because you can have one function to iterate over any kind of list and do stuff with the element (the humble map)

Which makes list iteration, map iteration, tree iteration, etc look the same. That's why I agree on the "computer science level" (you have an abstract container and want to go through its contents) and disagree on the "engineering level" (wtf why are you trying to make 3 totally different things look the same). I like that old John Carmack quote about him preferring to be constantly aware of the full horror of what he's doing
EDIT: sorry I'll shut up about coding now

 

[Dr. Künt]

When RollerCoaster Tycoon was developed writing assembly by hand wasn't that rare.

Nearly all console games up to 16 bit were written in assembly. They just had some more cool instructions specific to the hardware.

 

[canalCrab]

Better yet: pick your language based on the intention of your project.

Automation? Python.

Game engines? C types.

Web? Java and PHP stacks etc.

Kernel scripts? Bash.

Or you can just use your favourite language for all of those things.

I swear the moment Ikea brings back the RONA terracotta gnome, and they like bringing back old products from time to time, I am making a pilgrimage to Warsaw, Kraków, Katowice, Łódź, fucking any Ikea and going on a 2-2.5 hour drive just to obtain the holy grail.
View attachment 7622009
And maybe explore some of the bigger cities like a fucking tourist.

Just make sure to glaze it.

 

[Fat Nigga Fella]

I would not recommend learning about ReactJS/SCSS/TypeScript unless you find it interesting or absolutely require it, it's bloatware garbage.

TypeScript and React bloatware? what?

I mean, React, sure the infamous "node_modules" that goes over 600MB (that doesn't effect the final product, bundle sizes are in the KB, maybe a couple MBs if your code is shit or too massive), but this is just FUD from low-levels faggots who wants the web to be Terminal RSS and HTML pages made by people like Jason. I hate these types of comments because it makes me agree with Theo, and oh my God he's such a faggot, I don't want to agree with him, stop it.

TypeScript is not bloatware, I said this as someone that is currently working with vanilla JavaScript for a company (Their first project, the next projects were using TypeScript), and not only makes the project more robust, but it allowed React-Native to create Static Hermes which allows AOT compilation of JavaScript to native code, that's insane btw.

On today's web, if you want to do something COMPLEX, you need a framework: React, Vue, Svelte, etc. React for all its faults is a powerful "framework", that if you learn how to use it properly you can do a lot of good stuff with good performance.

My opinion? do whatever the fuck you want, the important are the fundamentals; learn to program not to code, understand patterns and architecture, languages are tools, not gang groups like creeps and bloods.

But TBH, avoid NextJS. Fuck that shit.

 

[Larka]

TypeScript and React bloatware? what?

I mean, React, sure the infamous "node_modules" that goes over 600MB (that doesn't effect the final product, bundle sizes are in the KB, maybe a couple MBs if your code is shit or too massive), but this is just FUD from low-levels faggots who wants the web to be Terminal RSS and HTML pages made by people like Jason. I hate these types of comments because it makes me agree with Theo, and oh my God he's such a faggot, I don't want to agree with him, stop it.

TypeScript is not bloatware, I said this as someone that is currently working with vanilla JavaScript for a company (Their first project, the next projects were using TypeScript), and not only makes the project more robust, but it allowed React-Native to create Static Hermes which allows AOT compilation of JavaScript to native code, that's insane btw.

On today's web, if you want to do something COMPLEX, you need a framework: React, Vue, Svelte, etc. React for all its faults is a powerful "framework", that if you learn how to use it properly you can do a lot of good stuff with good performance.

My opinion? do whatever the fuck you want, the important are the fundamentals; learn to program not to code, understand patterns and architecture, languages are tools, not gang groups like creeps and bloods.

But TBH, avoid NextJS. Fuck that shit.

Avoid all JavaScript frameworks when learning. They serve a purpose for getting work done faster, but will give you horrid habits.

If you want to do web development, learn HTML and CSS first. Understand it like it's the 90s. Then, learn what the browser does and how JavaScript is used to instruct it (now its the turn of the millennium). Then, learn what is going on with your server and how to tinker with it and eventually implement your own.

If you want to do something complex and novel, understand your tools and learn to implement solutions yourself instead of slaving yourself to someone elses' abstractions. The problems created by the web framework treadmill are far worse than the problems they were originally created to solve.

And I should add, once you've learned what's under the abstractions then you can use them if they are the right tool for the job. Otherwise it's like learning to use a calculator without learning how to do math.

 

[419]

If you want to do web development, learn HTML and CSS first. Understand it like it's the 90s. Then, learn what the browser does and how JavaScript is used to instruct it (now its the turn of the millennium). Then, learn what is going on with your server and how to tinker with it and eventually implement your own.

Genuinely off-topic, I know, but I have to clarify: at what point does PHP come into this flow you're outlining considering it still seems fairly prevalent today?

I ask this as "someone who does development outside of web altogether, and is finding himself begrudgingly having to consider at least some sort of hobbyist web project some day to fill a growing hole in some certain niche".