Argue about Christianity and the Jews

[Unzen]

That is the absolute surface level take I'd expect from a bait post, so good job proving my point. It's one of those "I've never actually read Job with any level of comprehension," tells. Especially since there's commentary on Job from all kinds of source, both religious and not. Even fucking Carl Jung. There's no point in arguing with the willfully ignorant, it's just casting pearls after swine.

Literally no reason provided. (Spoiler: No reason will ever be provided by theists in regards to book of Job)

And all that he lost is restored to him ten fold.

Guess god can resurrect Job's family now or something.

 

[gay porn is the best porn]

It's not negligent if it's by design.

If you intentionally make something that is horribly designed when you are capable of making something better then you are being negligent.

 

[societyguy01]

He's all powerful so he's capable of making it happen and he's all knowing so he knows to do it.

I think the issue here is that we're getting caught in a specific view of God within a very fixed set of ontological constraints. This is a common complaint that has been had by the Atheist throughout the ages - "If God is so powerful why then does he tolerate evil?" A better question would be thus: if evil were to completely cease existing tomorrow how would we know what is 'good' and 'righteous'? In order for good to exist, so must evil as they are two parts of the same whole, this in short is the nature of non-dualism. There is also the operating assumption with the complaint being made that it is up to God to micromanage the actions of every single human being on planet earth to make sure they're not evil, which is something that would in fact go against free will. In my humble belief God sets the stage and lays out the rules of the great 'game' of life, but it is up to humanity to follow his precepts and either descend towards hell or rise towards heaven in accordance with their own actions.

Granted my beliefs would certainly divert from the typical Christian, as my conception of 'God' is fundamentally different. But it simply goes to show that the existence of evil and of sin is not a viable avenue to shake one's fist against God in an effort to either prove his negligence or lack of existence. The law of Karma is universal and as they say, "what comes around goes around." In the end every single human being in existence is going to get precisely what they deserve - what they do deserve is entirely up to the fate they have crafted with their own actions. If you've ever found yourself having a terribly shitty day with bad thing after bad thing happening to you with no rational explanation it might not be coincidence - it might just be you cashing in on evil deeds or sins you've committed in the past. But that's just food for thought.

 

[Quiet Guy]

Like if they get into heaven, they're no longer retarded or black? Reminds me of what the Mormons used to say about the Lamanites.

Maybe it's something like the end of this clip:

 

[Catch The Rainbow]

Literally tortures a guy for no reason. Book of Job is the weakest part and there's no defending it.

The Talmud suggests that Job was one of three royal advisors to the Egyptian Pharaoh who deliberated over the plot to murder all the male Jewish newborns. He didn't care either way and didn't oppose the plan so he was punished later in life.

There's other theories but it's agreed that Job was:

1. Not Jewish
2. Extremely righteous

 

[Levitcus prime24]

View attachment 7674354
Pretty much every argument on-line about Christianity, and I'd assume Judaism, pretty much turns into that. Almost every internet atheist I've ever discussed religion with has never bothered to look at any of the discussion or debate about those topics that Christianity has had over the last two thousand years and I've never known one to accept an answer no matter how well supported or argued it is. I think you're right and it's mostly daddy-issues all the way down and until they resolve those there's no point in debating anything with them. I spent a long, long time trying to do just that.

On the other hand, I love the book of Job and I suppose I find God's answer to Job to be good enough.

Why are talking about religion on this thread i just wanted to post about the trump and politics shenanigans

 

[WelperHelper99]

Guess god can resurrect Job's family now or something.

At the end of days, yes. They are certainly in heaven for what happened, they aren't burning in hell. Your logic only works if death is the End and not the Beginning.

 

[George Lucas]

The Talmud suggests that Job was one of three royal advisors to the Egyptian Pharaoh who deliberated over the plot to murder all the male Jewish newborns. He didn't care either way and didn't oppose the plan so he was punished later in life.

There's other theories but it's agreed that Job was:

1. Not Jewish
2. Extremely righteous

The Talmud isn’t real bruh.

 

[>IMPLYING]

Isn't there a paradox related to something being all powerful?

Null has the capability of leaking your email, your password to your kiwifarms account, and your IP address. Just because he doesn't, does not mean he can't. Same premise with God.

But still, what prevents God from creating a world that has free will AND no sin? The consensus for Biblical scholars is that God is all knowing and all powerful so what could possibly explain this outside of negligence or evil since incompetence is ruled out? This is where the conclusion that I mentioned before is made, that God has a reasonable explanation for it, it's just that we cannot comprehend it due to his logic being different than ours and therefore you need blind faith.

He did create a world with free will and no sin.
Humans created sin.
Since humans created sin, the right to commit sin cannot be impeded because that would violate free will.

 

[Quiet Guy]

Maybe it's something like the end of this clip:

Wait...so The Boondocks is right?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PidAAOdwa0M

Looks like you beat me to it by less than a minute.

 

[Catch The Rainbow]

The Talmud isn’t real bruh.

Probably shouldn't have dropped 2k on that book set then

 

[Schpoots]

God is real and this thread is our punishment

 

[Gregis]

The Talmud suggests that Job was one of three royal advisors to the Egyptian Pharaoh who deliberated over the plot to murder all the male Jewish newborns. He didn't care either way and didn't oppose the plan so he was punished later in life.

There's other theories but it's agreed that Job was:

1. Not Jewish
2. Extremely righteous

Thanks, I hate it.

 

[NuII's Clitty💦]

I do not think everyone has a soul.

I don't have a soul.
Problem, liberals?

words words words

You know what else "doesn't make sense"? Creating matter out of nothing and turning water into wine.

There's no point in arguing with the willfully ignorant, it's just casting pearls after swine.

You are very smart, and your position is well-argued.

 

[inetsone]

Probably shouldn't have dropped 2k on that book set then

What was the final verdict from my comment over the weekend: are you or are you not allowed to catch the rainbow? I'm reliably informed you're not allowed to stare at it. Looking out for your eternal soul, bro.

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2770455/jewish/What-Is-the-Significance-of-a-Rainbow-in-Judaism.htm

However, since the rainbow represents the beauty of the divine presence and the glory of the Creator, the Talmud12 teaches that it’s not proper to stare at a rainbow. However, it is permitted to look at a rainbow for the sake of making the special blessing on it.

 

[RiceofSkywalker]

You’d think an omnipotent being could figure out a workaround that avoided a bunch of blasphemy and bloodshed.

Christians really wrote themselves into a corner by insisting that god is all-knowing and all-powerful because now they have to reconcile how a morally perfect and all powerful being is content to watch us suffer and die for his own amusement.

I always found that to be the weakest argument against Christianity. "Why did God give me free will? Why not make me a believer from birth? Why not start me off straight into Heaven?"
Think of it as God's homework to you: live life having faith and doing good deeds. You can't complain that he isn't giving you the answers or doing your homework for you.

 

[More AWS-8Q Than You]

More people need a dad like I had who thought his catholic highschool was bullshit but only expressed it by intentionally getting a D in Religion class by giving just enough wrong answers on the tests. Show those knuckle slapping nuns what you think of them. That seems far more fun than le redditor atheism. He also enjoyed stringing along Indian scam callers before it was cool. Having fun doing a little trolling and being a general net positive to society while leaving the big theological questions to others is much better for your health than being a le redditor atheist.

Those are always the fun ones, but most internet atheists are just the flip side of the fundies they hate, it took awhile for the young, naive, trying to be helpful me to realize it was never about finding truth with a lot of them. Did sometimes get most honest seekers asking questions from the sidelines and those discussions could be good. Honestly it's the same thing with neo-"pagans," most of them are just le reddit atheists with extra steps. If you try to nail them down on actual beliefs it's always just vibes and shit.

The same thing happens in Christian denominational sniping. How many people in the Catholic/Prot shitfests have actually read the 95 Theses do you think? I'm pretty sure most of the time it's none of them. And it's the same thing with a lot of modern political issues, just look at this thread over the last two weeks. Alone from the Last Psychiatrist talks about this in Sadly, Porn. People have been trained to trust secondary sources and never actually read the primary ones and AI is just going to make that worse. They won't even read the secondaries, they'll just trust Grok.

 

[Blewberry Nausea]

I always found that to be the weakest argument against Christianity. "Why did God give me free will? Why not make me a believer from birth? Why not start me off straight into Heaven?"
Think of it as God's homework to you: live life having faith and doing good deeds. You can't complain that he isn't giving you the answers or doing your homework for you.

I dunno dude I am just like
God is the Creator
Man is his creation
Man is also flawed
When creators find a flaw they tend to fix that flaw.
If I built a rickety bridge I don’t just leave it as is and let people figure how not to die. That’s a crime.

Now I understand there’s been thousands of years of thunking about the whole thing and obviously as an outsider I am not nearly educated or enmeshed enough to take these surface takes and go ‘heh, guess religion ain’t shit’ like a 14 year old
But I also understand in the exposure to religion I have had I have not see really anything that spoke to me or pulled me in to get all up in the holy scripture.
I dunno, I ain’t trying to be edgy at all just conveying my perspective as mishmash and unstudied as it is.

 

[>IMPLYING]

Due to him being all knowing, he made Adam and Eve such that they both would sin or was negligent in how he designed them. It all comes back to God because of him being all knowing and him being the origin of all things.

The self-limitations would've applied from the onset of human creation. In theory, God could've known the entire stretch of the history of reality itself with perfect clarify and thus would have no real reason to create anything, but he still did. And he did so not knowing the consequences of such because he either chose not to know everything or he doesn't possess omniscience, but considering he told Abraham what'd occur in the next 400 years of his descendants, it's more he's selective about what he allows himself to see (or he's just a phenomenal predictor). The paradox also does not factor the individuality of God, which might irk some Christians since it's personifying him, but still. Why would he bother if he knew everything from the start? Likely because he chose not to. God's capable of emoting, and if he weren't, nor would humans in theory, since we're meant to be in his image (be it our basic shapes or what we're like and capable of).

Genesis 6:2-8

2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

6 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

7 And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

God expresses anger and regret at the wickedness of humanity, planned to destroy everybody, but then Noah effectively saved the world (or humanity & some animals at least) by being an exemplar of good.

Exodus 32:9-14

9 And the Lord said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:

10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.

11 And Moses besought the Lord his God, and said, Lord, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?

12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.

13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.

14 And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

God was going to force Moses' people into being good, which the verse itself describes as an "evil", and this is another instance of God choosing not to do something he was more than capable of due to being talked out of it.

Hosea 11

11 When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

2 As they called them, so they went from them: they sacrificed unto Baalim, and burned incense to graven images.

3 I taught Ephraim also to go, taking them by their arms; but they knew not that I healed them.

4 I drew them with cords of a man, with bands of love: and I was to them as they that take off the yoke on their jaws, and I laid meat unto them.

5 He shall not return into the land of Egypt, and the Assyrian shall be his king, because they refused to return.

6 And the sword shall abide on his cities, and shall consume his branches, and devour them, because of their own counsels.

7 And my people are bent to backsliding from me: though they called them to the most High, none at all would exalt him.

8 How shall I give thee up, Ephraim? how shall I deliver thee, Israel? how shall I make thee as Admah? how shall I set thee as Zeboim? mine heart is turned within me, my repentings are kindled together.

9 I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.

10 They shall walk after the Lord: he shall roar like a lion: when he shall roar, then the children shall tremble from the west.

11 They shall tremble as a bird out of Egypt, and as a dove out of the land of Assyria: and I will place them in their houses, saith the Lord.

12 Ephraim compasseth me about with lies, and the house of Israel with deceit: but Judah yet ruleth with God, and is faithful with the saints.

God comes close to destroying Israel (not Judah, these are the tribes) but chooses not to in the end, because he is God and God still loves his children. To me this demonstrates that despite his capability to do much of anything, he makes conscious choices not to do so. You can put it down to his promise made with Noah to not intervene anymore, or because he still loves humanity in spite of the occasional bout of faithlessness and evil.

Genesis 2:16–17

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:

17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Genesis 4:6-7

6 And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Genesis 6:5

5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

From the very start God pretty much hammers home to people that the choice of evil is yours, and even with warning, people still commit to it and this is God telling them himself. And even though he tells Cain directly that if he does something evil, he'll get fucked, Cain still does it anyway, because that was his choice to make. You can get into an regressive cycle here of, "why didn't God job him killing Able?" but again, the entire premise is hinged on the idea that God created evil and that man should be deprived of free will to commit that evil, when in reality man created evil and God promised not to interfere with man. It was only when he saw that all of mankind was drawn to committing evil in their hearts and it's all they thought of that he decided to wipe the slate clean, until Noah - because God would rather go back on his decisions than let a single good person die as the result of his (direct) action.

There isn't too many instances in the Old Testament, but the New Testament and an epistle provides some direct examples of God being able to limit himself:
Mark 13:32

32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

I.E. If Jesus is an incarnation of God, then this incarnation has limited what he knows, which is distinct from the Father who does know.
Philippians 2:6-8

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

I.E. Jesus voluntarily sets aside divine privileges to enter the human condition fully, even if he hasn't ceased being divine.


TLDR: He chose not to know. His lack of action thereafter is primarily the result of mercy and being talked out of it by man because, like man, God is capable of emotion. Jesus was self-limiting, meaning God can also self-limit. God also practices restraint when it comes to his wrath, and if he's capable of restraining his power, he's capable of restraining his own access to knowledge too, probably.



Even from my non-religious perspective, even if God does not possess true omniscience, it still not invalidate his capabilities nor the religion as a whole (the same view I have of the trinity) because ultimately what difference does it honestly make?

Aquinas also proposed another way of looking at it:

“God understands all things, not discursively, but as one whole, eternal act.”

God sees everything, simultaneously, everywhere all at once. God knows everything with perfect clarity but not disseminate or discriminate with details and particulars, not does he scrutinise things individually, because he sees everything as though it's occurring all at the same time. His limitation therein is choosing not to employ scrutiny

There's also the concept of God's "perfection". A way of looking at his omniscience is less "all knowing" and more "perfect knowledge". His understanding of all things is complete and perfect, that rather than it being a sort of future sight, it's more he's fully able to understand the complexity and capability of all things. I.E. God sees Cain and knows Cain is capable of committing sin, but also knows Cain is capable of not committing sin, ergo he knows both of these things at once without it contradicting omniscience.

There's also, and this might irk some Christians because of it's fanficky nature, possible that the perception of God exact capabilities might be outright wrong since many of his capabilities are ascribed by man rather than outright stated by God himself most of the time. He does describe in detail his power and omnipresence, but his omniscience is more of in inferred capability of his omnipotence and omnipresence rather than one that's outright stated by him.

 

[SITHRAK!]

Since people are still talking about religion... in Leviticus is says a man shall not lie with another man, but it says man, not women. So does that mean being a lesbian is not a sin?

Fun fact: when HRH Queen Victoria was presented the bill criminalizing homosexuality, she didn’t believe that lesbianism was a thing. So before signing it into law, she simply crossed out all references to lesbianism, functionally making it the only not-illegal form of homosexuality in the British Commonwealth.
And the rug munchers will still go on endlessly about their ‘oppression’.