Wheel of Time - Discuss the Books and the Canceled TV Show

UnsufficentBoobage said:
No fire, but (to')raken Seanchan ride are these non-pterosaur flying lizards "realistic" pop fantasy dragons usually are. Come on, even that word sounds kinda like "dragon".
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It is implied that the seanchan beasts are domesticated blight spawn so they probably have names that predate the breaking.
 
UnsufficentBoobage said:
No fire, but (to')raken Seanchan ride are these non-pterosaur flying lizards "realistic" pop fantasy dragons usually are. Come on, even that word sounds kinda like "dragon".
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I think when most people think of dragon they think of actually intelligent creatures that tower over people, not something that can be domesticated. Since the only visual designs for Dragons in Randworld lack wings altogether and none of the characters have an analogue for what a dragon is, I don't think that's what they were intended to be either. You can say it's a meta cop-out and sure, but the point of the passage is to imply to the reader that Randworld isn't a generic fantasy setting where magical creatures are an everyday fact of life and I think it accomplishes that.
 
SouthernBitchBob said:
View attachment 7865524

They're still under the impression this will do anything.
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Oh it did something all right.
It may not be the end for fans of The Wheel of Time. However, it does look very much like it is an end. Of course, the news was not entirely unexpected. Back in May, Deadline reported that the streaming series based on Robert Jordan’s series of fantasy novels had been canceled. However, many fans of the show held out hope that the series would be able to continue in some form.

Many of us at Fellowship of Fans had been watching The Wheel of Time and, despite a certain amount of rivalry and bad blood between some fans of that show and The Rings of Power, we decided that it was in our best interest to promote good fantasy television wherever it may be found. Our efforts included a livestream to give publicity to a petition to save The Wheel of Time, as well as a watch-along of all three seasons of the show (just recently concluded which will soon conclude).

News from DragonCon​

Unfortunately, the latest news is that, with the cancellation of the show, and no plans to renew it, the rights have reverted to iwot productions limited. This means that Sony Pictures Television and Amazon MGM Studios no longer have any rights to produce a streaming series based on Robert Jordan’s fantasy series, The Wheel of Time. The chances of this particular adaptation continuing—with Rosamund Pike as Moiraine Damodred, Josha Stradowski as Rand al’Thor, and many other fine actors—seem to be effectively nil. (I personally will miss Ceara Coveney as Elayne Trakand.) The Wheel keeps turning, however, and actors, directors, crew and all need to find other projects to support their careers.

The news of the rights reverting was reported recently on Reddit, where it was attributed to the director of JordanCon, an annual convention devoted to the works of Robert Jordan. (To be clear, JordanCon is not going on at the moment. The news apparently comes from DragonCon, which recently concluded. Both are held in Atlanta, Georgia, in the United States.) Jennifer Liang, who is the co-founder and Chair of JordanCon, stepped in to confirm that the rights have reverted to iwot productions limited, and they “are not looking for another streamer to pick it up.” [UPDATE (Sep. 9, 2025): While Jennifer Liang is a prominent Wheel of Time fan who may have deeper insight than most, she is not a representative of Amazon, Sony, or iwot, and not all of what was shared in the Reddit post necessarily came directly from her (for example, the claim about rights reverting completely to iwot). As such, none of this should be taken as official confirmation.]

See also our video on the news, with Fellowship of Fans members Strider, Varking, and TheChivKnight:


The Current Rights Holders​

iwot productions limited was formerly known as Red Eagle Entertainment, LLC. Red Eagle has a somewhat notorious reputation in The Wheel of Time fandom. Robert Jordan sold them adaptation rights to the book series in 2004. They announced that a film series was in development, but nothing came of it. They sold the film rights to Universal Pictures in 2008. Universal developed a script, but ultimately decided against filming it, and the film rights reverted to Red Eagle.

Winter Dragon​

Red Eagle then tried to interest Sony in developing a television series. However, with the rights about to revert to Robert Jordan’s widow, they went ahead and hastily produced a 22-minute short film, titled Winter Dragon. The film aired unadvertised on February 18, 2015 during a late-night infomercial time slot. This move was highly reminiscent of the first film adaptation of The Hobbit in 1967 (more background on that at Tolkien Gateway).

According to Red Eagle, Winter Dragon was the “pilot” of a television series that was in development. Nobody believed them. Harriet McDougal, Robert Jordan’s widow, disclaimed knowledge of the production. A lawsuit and a countersuit ensued. The lawsuit was eventually settled out of court, the end result of which was The Wheel of Time streaming series produced by Sony and Amazon.

Future Adaptations​

With the rights reverting to iwot productions limited, the future of Wheel of Time adaptations is hazy. However, presumably they do wish to collect revenue from further adaptations. Indeed, with the streaming series having exposed Robert Jordan’s works to a larger audience, the property is likely as valuable now as it ever was. Two obvious routes to take at the moment would be feature films and video games. As streaming series increasingly compete with films in terms of production costs (and brevity), and make audiences wait two years or longer for a couple of months of television or less, the price tag of a film—or even a film series—becomes more attractive. Likewise a video game franchise.

About the Series​

The Wheel of Time television series was announced by Harriet McDougal on April 28, 2016. A year later, Sony Pictures Television was announced as the production company, with Rafe Judkins as showrunner. On October 2, 2018, Amazon Studios was announced as a co-production company, with Prime Video as the distributor.

Amazon’s involvement in The Wheel of Time was revealed nearly a year after the announcement of their deal with the Tolkien Estate to produce what became The Rings of Power. However, The Wheel of Time went into production earlier, with principal photography commencing on September 16, 2019.


Season 1​

Season 1 debuted on November 19, 2021. It attracted a large number of viewers, including some Tolkien fans like me, who were curious to see what an Amazon fantasy series might look like. Unfortunately, the first episode was fairly weak, which may have dampened the interest of many viewers. The series became progressively better over the next few episodes. Unfortunately, the quality dipped again. The season finale, in particular, was widely regarded as a disappointment.

Some of the issues with the last few episodes may be attributed to the effects of the coronavirus pandemic, as well as the actor for Mat Cauthon departing the production for personal reasons. Of course, there were also the usual controversies over adaptation choices as well, dividing fans of the book series into some who were opposed to the series, and others who felt it deserved a chance.


Season 2​

Season 2 aired beginning September 1, 2023. Unfortunately, the show’s audience size was much reduced, presumably because many of those who had failed to be impressed by Season 1 felt no desire to continue watching. It isn’t unheard of for shows with a lackluster first season to go on to become popular favorites. Star Trek: The Next Generation is an oft-cited example. However, in the current climate of streaming television, it’s much more difficult for shows to gain traction if they fail to make a good first impression.

I watched Season 2 primarily out of curiosity. I was particularly interested to see if the writers would address the matter of Moiraine badmouthing her hero Lews Therin in the first episode of Season 1, and then demonstrating that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, by essentially copying his plan that led to the “Breaking of the World”, in the last episode. (I don’t recall Moirane criticizing Lews Therin in the three books that I have read so far.) I received no such satisfaction from the writers; however, I had to agree with those of us who watched the second season that the show improved noticeably.


Season 3​

Season 3 aired from March 13, 2025. Those who watched it agreed that it was a great improvement even over Season 2. My favorite episode was Episode 4: “The Road to the Spear”. It was a lore-heavy episode, and potentially confusing, as Josha Stradowski, who plays Rand al’Thor, was reused to portray six of his ancestors of varying ages. However, the revelations were well paced, and the lore was not presented in an overloaded “Star Trek technobabble” manner. It does help to be familiar with earlier episodes of the show, however. I soon found that I was not alone in my opinion. A common refrain was that “The Road to the Spear” was “the best hour of fantasy television”. An example of such a review may be found on Collider.

Although Episode 4 was a stand-out episode, the other episodes were also quite good, and the season finale ended the season on a high note. Season 3 of The Wheel of Time received rave reviews overall from those who watched it. Unfortunately, the number of people who watched Season 3 was much reduced from that of those who tuned in to watch Episode 1 of Season 1. On May 23 the show’s cancellation was announced, barely a month after the last episode aired.

Cancellation​

Fans of the show understandably regarded the cancellation as an injustice. What other fantasy series currently in production is better? However, television production and distribution companies are not, as a rule, singular, wealthy patrons of the arts, judging works primarily by their quality and the prestige they bring to their brand. (Arguably, Amazon may have been acting as such when it purchased distribution rights to The Expanse. However, Jeff Bezos is no longer in a position to make such decisions.)

Instead, such entities are corporations—collections of individuals who have a shared interest in making a living and the responsibility of returning a profit to their shareholders. To them the most important metrics are those that show how many people are watching a show, and how much. And The Wheel of Time apparently just didn’t have the numbers to justify the continued expense.

What Next?​

Only time will tell how soon we will see another turning of the Wheel—and in what form it will appear. It probably won’t be as a live-action streaming series. Perhaps it will be a feature film, a video game, a graphic novel, an anime series, or—who knows?—maybe a theme park ride. In the mean time, if you haven’t watched The Wheel of Time on Prime Video, I recommend you do that soon. You can also follow our watch-along here.

For those who are a little bit more ambitious, now might be a good time to start reading the book series. I read the first three volumes in anticipation of Season 1, but then I decided it was probably best to watch the show first and read the books afterwards. Now that it looks like there is no chance the series will be revived, however, I might just go ahead and finish the series. It’s the only way I’ll be able to get to the Last Battle—for the time being.

UPDATE (September 6, 2025): I mistakenly wrote that the Fellowship of Fans Wheel of Time watch-along had recently concluded. In fact, there is likely one final Wheel of Time stream remaining to wrap up the watch-along series. (Probably not this weekend, but hopefully soon.) Also, several FoF members recorded a video on the subject of the rights reverting to iwot around the same time I wrote this article. We thought it best to include their video in this article so both are available from the same place.

There has been some justifiable criticism in that, although as a prominent Wheel of Time fan, Jennifer Liang may very well be in the know, she is not an official representative of either Amazon, Sony, or iwot. Therefore, what she says should not be taken as official confirmation of anything. Of course, there are still those who are not giving up hope that the show will continue. If we receive further news from an official source, one way or another, we will keep you updated.

UPDATE (September 9, 2025): Updated the body of the article with the above disclaimer, and emphasized that not everything in the Reddit post and ensuing discussion may be attributed to Jennifer Liang. In particular, there still seems to be some question regarding whether Sony retains at least some of the television adaptation rights.
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Computer God Autism said:
I think when most people think of dragon they think of actually intelligent creatures that tower over people, not something that can be domesticated. Since the only visual designs for Dragons in Randworld lack wings altogether and none of the characters have an analogue for what a dragon is, I don't think that's what they were intended to be either. You can say it's a meta cop-out and sure, but the point of the passage is to imply to the reader that Randworld isn't a generic fantasy setting where magical creatures are an everyday fact of life and I think it accomplishes that.
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I think the only hint ordinary people have to what a dragon is supposed to look like is something we'll see after winter night which I'll hold off on unless honka wants to mention it, but the only groups who probably know what a dragon looks like are Aes sedia, who are notorious for never sharing information with an outside group unless it's a way to manipulate them, the Aiel, who will sooner stab you with a spear then share anything with a wetlander, ogiers, who aside from one literally only cares about trees, and maybe an odd gleeman or two.
 
Something occurred to me rereading eye of the world, I can't really decide if Jordan using blood and ashes (and a whole phrases thanks to Uno) is just a creative way for characters to swear and not have to deal with any age rating limitations (although I've haven't heard of any age rating system to the same degree as movies and games) or are because of in universe events/stories such as the breaking.
 
vern said:
Something occurred to me rereading eye of the world, I can't really decide if Jordan using blood and ashes (and a whole phrases thanks to Uno) is just a creative way for characters to swear and not have to deal with any age rating limitations (although I've haven't heard of any age rating system to the same degree as movies and games) or are because of in universe events/stories such as the breaking.
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Bit of both added with the fact things are 4 ages away from our time so swearing would change.
 
Chapter 2 Strangers:
Summary

Rand and Mat begin to take the Apple Flavored Drink products into the Winespring Inn, we meet a few more of the Village Council and Bran’s wife. Rand and Mat do their chore and head back outside where Rand gets a feeling of being watched.

He is, by a Raven..he and Mat both fling rocks at the Raven but the Raven dodges like the main character in a bad mid 2000s Matrix Ripoff. The pair are rightly creeped out by the fact that a Raven is apparently The One then a female voice speaks to them from behind, the voice belonging to a strange traveler.

Enter Moraine, the boys introduce themselves to her (including one I haven’t mentioned named Elwin who is not important...except for a joke I will make 3 books from now) and she introduces herself as someone who is interested in the history of the Two Rivers. She gives The 3 boys silver coins and then walks off, being trailed by a swordsman who Elwin tells us is Lan and rightfully guesses that he is a Warder, but Rand and Mat shoot the idea down.

My Thoughts

We have a little early preview that despite being a lazy scoundrel Mat is kind of reliable, Rand said that Mat did not have to help with the Apple Cider delivery but Mat decided to stay and help anyways.

Elwin is a literal who so his scene is pretty skip-able, however it should be noted that originally he was going to be one of the main characters and Jordan’s wife said he was a pointless loser and to leave him behind. She wasn’t wrong, I think a 4th Two Rivers boy would have been a bit much, The Trio of Rand, Perrin (who we haven’t met yet) and Mat work pretty well.

We meet Moraine and Lan (sort of) here, and given what we learn about Aes Sedai and the Three Oaths later, apparently Moraine is looking for old Stories from the Two Rivers. We also learn that Moraine is fucking short. Everyone make fun of the Womanlet!

Chapter 3: The Peddler

A wagon enters Emon’s Field laden with various items, The rumored Peddler has arrived. The townsfolk gather around the Peddler who screws around with his wagon for a bit. We get the last of our main Trio introduced. Perrin Aybara the apprentice to the town Blacksmith, who we met in chapter 2 but haven’t had much interaction with.

The Peddler, named Padan Fain announces the news of the continent. Winter has been harsh everywhere, and a War has broken out. Someone has declared themselves The Dragon Reborn. Who we know is the Savior of the past age, but 3000 years is a long time for human memory and the fact that Lews Therin was on the side of the light has been lost to townsfolk like the Two Rivers people.

The news worries everyone and Tam (there he is doing sensible things again) suggests that the Town Council talk with Fain personally. The boys gather up and discuss events, with Mat bringing up that some think that The Dragon would be reborn in humanity’s darkest hour and that he would save humanity.

As they talk The Town Healer, called The Wisdom enters the conversation and chides Mat for being a trouble maker and talking about The Dark One, and with her Egwene Al’vere. The Wisdom named Nyneave Al’mere continues to scold Mat until the trio inform her about Fain and his news..which causes her to go into the Inn because the Town Council are “going to ask the wrong questions”

Egwene and Rand talk..as Mat and Perrin back off because the most entertaining thing possible is making a young man talk to his crush by himself. Egwene reveals that her hair is now braided which means she is of marriageable age...Rand’s flight or fight instinct kicks in and then he makes a complete fool of himself as young men are want to do.

Once Rand makes Egwene angry enough for a day, Mat and Perrin return and reveal that Perrin has also seen the Rider, as have some of the other boys their age. Egwene overhears the discussion and declare that the boys are retards, then someone exits the Inn, an Older man of a dignified air.

My thoughts
We meet lots of characters in this chapter.

Padan Fain is pretty generic so far, but he does what he needs to do and informs us of the world outside, and makes it seem like a dangerous and mysterious place.

Nyneave and Egwene make very bad first impressions. Nyneave less than Egwene this time around. In retrospect you can kind of understand why Nyneave has a bad temper sometimes, her being a channeler means she looks young for her age so she has to be a bit aggressive sometimes because her perceived young age affects how she is treated.

Egwene is just kind of rude here, but unlike some folks I don’t quite hate her. She is a young woman and doing young woman things with the man she thinks she is going to get married to, and technically we are seeing things from Rand’s POV, so I think we empathize with him a bit more than if this had happened in a third person perspective.

We also meet the last of our main(ish) trio, who is introduced as very big and very careful. Much of his carefulness is supposedly from how big he is and how much he wants to avoid hurting other people, but I think some of the writing misses out on the fact he is a Blacksmith which is probably very delicate work despite using heavy hammers. After all fucking up and smashing your hand or breaking something you are making is something a Blacksmith doesn’t want to do.

From a setting perspective we learn that Male Channelers go insane, get sick and die, which is rather important, it means that the Male half of the source is still tainted and is a massive sticking point for whoever will be The Dragon..which we have no idea at this point at all.

Chapter 3: The Gleeman

The conversation between our 4 main characters (Yeah Egwene counts, I am sorry) gets interrupted when an older man roughly exists the Winespring Inn. He looks around and very loudly begins complaining about the treatment he has received since he arrived in the Two Rivers. Including the phrase “I sit down to smoke my pipe by the fire and everyone looks at me as if I am their least favorite brother coming to ask them for money.”

The man introduces himself as Thom Merrlin a former Court Bard and now a Master Class Gleeman. The villagers once again gather around to hear Thom hype up his stories, music and other performances, however Thom very abruptly cuts his preening off when Moraine and Lan appear in the crowd. Thom and Moraine talk for a few moments, and it is very clear that there is something about Moraine that Thom is not comfortable with.

The Village Council and Nyneave come out from the Inn and announce that after Bell Tine there will be a patrol started, and that messages will be sent to the other Villages in the Two Rivers suggesting they set up Patrols. Tam tells Rand that they are heading back to the farm, which surprises Rand as they were originally planning on staying in the Village for the holiday evening.

As Tam and Rand travel back to their Farm in the Westwood, Tam lets Rand know that many of the village’s young men have seen the Black-Cloaked Rider, and that the Village Council believes them now because several of the more responsible (IE. Not Mat) village boys have seen him around and that word will be spread around the village about the Rider.

My Thoughts.

We have met our last major player for a while (really we have one more main character to meet, but they show up way later in the book)

Thom is a GOAT, he has one of my favorite character archetypes, the Wandering Bard and this is a setting that takes the Bard seriously. A Gleeman is a rare thing for most villages to see so one showing up is a big deal and means that in a sensible place you will be able to get room and board at an Inn for your troubles.

Of course you get more if you are hired by a town to come for a specific holiday. It is funny that Thom outright states he used to be a court bard...and exactly zero of our main characters remotely remember that fact and often think that The Old Bard is just a Gleeman and was never anything more until Elayne puts 2 and 2 together in Book 4.

We learn a bit of the legends of the Third Age, which are many real world references, and we get Moraine who probably instantly identified Thom as the former court Bard of Camelyn.

Then we get to the first meeting of Thom and Moraine, who have a strange bit of plot way later in the series, but it is something I can kind of see making sense given the details of each character. Also Moraine 100% knows who he is from the outset.

Tam once again proves he is the best Dad, unironically I think Tam might be the best Dad in fiction, I can’t THINK of a fictional Father I would want over Tam Al’Thor. Tam even teaches Great Responsibility without having to get shot by a mugger. See: when he made Mat help Rand with the Apple Cider.

With Tam and Rand arriving back on the farm, the stage is set and it’s time for the plot to start kicking in.
 
Honka Honka Burning Love said:
Thom is a GOAT, he has one of my favorite character archetypes, the Wandering Bard and this is a setting that takes the Bard seriously. A Gleeman is a rare thing for most villages to see so one showing up is a big deal and means that in a sensible place you will be able to get room and board at an Inn for your troubles.
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One of the things about Wheel of Time that I always appreciated is this fact. A lot of fantasy tropey shit just treat being a bard/troubadour/minstrel as any other job when hearing live music was historically such a rare thing, something we really take for granted in the current year of people playing trap music on public transit at full volume . The world of WoT feels really lived-in and natural especially compared to so much that came after it.
 
Nynaeve al'Meara said:
One of the things about Wheel of Time that I always appreciated is this fact. A lot of fantasy tropey shit just treat being a bard/troubadour/minstrel as any other job when hearing live music was historically such a rare thing, something we really take for granted in the current year of people playing trap music on public transit at full volume . The world of WoT feels really lived-in and natural especially compared to so much that came after it.
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I've never really tied the fact that "Gleeman" are rare to see in most places to the fact that civilization is in a decline period.
 
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