AI Derangement Syndrome / Anti-AI artists / Pro-AI technocultists / AI "debate" communities - The Natural Retardation in the Artificial Intelligence communities

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So when i ask the thread if anyone actually enjoys stuff mainly created with generated assets, what I am asking is does watching that stuff adds to anything on your own mind and soul? Or is it always some slapdash garbage made to be scrolled by without a second glance?
Why do you ask that question in the first place?
What's the problem? Is it cause it's inhuman, something made by nature you would also reject? Is it cause it's mundane so you wouldn't find something to appreciate if it was too basic?

If the generated object or media is of good quality why would you care? Could you even tell in the first place that it was generate and not made if it was good enough?
 
I personally do not consume anything that i can perceive as majorly made with AI-generation because it strikes me personally as something the creator did not want to be completely responsible for. It lacks intentional decision of the creator, who instead of looking and building every detail of something just hand-waves it as not important for the totality of what is being made. Given that the author does not think it was worthy to engage with all aspects of what they made, it just feels dumb to have myself then consume something that not even who created it put their all into it, so i would rather just go somewhere else where i know that even if not great i can safely try to gleam what the author wanted to show me knowing that in the end it was an actual real person responsible for it.
I am not saying every content made by real people is then worthy of being consumed, there is plenty of shit made by all sorts of people that is not worth the bytes of data used to transport it to my computer, stuff like ads, marketing material, content farm articles and whatnot always existed and I do not concern myself with paying attention to what some random ad is trying to sell me.
Big disagree there. AI generated stuff can be very full of "the intentional decision of the creator". Who's to say the creator didn't "put their all into it?". Maybe what someone wants to create is beyond their current technical skills of budget to do so through traditional means, but that doesn't mean you can't see and appreciate their vision through their creation.

I don't have many examples of AI media I can share that I find truly outstanding, but one thing I am a big fan of is Songs in the key of CWC's Kino Casino Felted AI PPP saga. I view the series as an incredibly kino piece of art. It is very much full of intent, has a cohesive theme and overarching plot that even plays into the fact that it's made with AI, in fact, it really couldn't exist otherwise since the whole story is about shitty AI generated characters.
Also, it's interesting how the videos get better production in the newer releases. If I remember correctly, they have some degree manual editing/post production too. If you'd watch only one video I'd recommend the 4th one. Yeah, it's full of weird glitches and it's dumb in a lot of ways, but it's part of its charm.

It is true that AI can be used to create easy cash grabs of dubious quality and "soulless slop", but it can also be used to create quality entertainment and even art. I think the felted AI PPP saga is a kind of art. Woaaaaah buddy!

TL;DR: Six fingers good, five fingers bad!
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Right now people are raving about SeedDance, and normies impressed with the technology are reposting this video, and I think a substantial portion of them are sharing it without unmuting the video.
 
it strikes me personally as something the creator did not want to be completely responsible for
As an artist, you have to specialise. There's a reason TobyFox games are in childish pixel art- He's not an artist, he's a talented musician, he's enough of an autist to code, but he can't draw. Same for Minecraft. You get the same in other configurations- A great programmer who can't draw for shit, and great artist who doesn't have an ounce of musical talent, etc.

People can argue that the need to work against limitation forced them to innovate but the truth remains, those art styles were a compromise. If they could have had artwork that looked professional, they would have. Why should we have to compromise? Why should we not strive for the best quality we can achieve, using all the tools at our disposal?

Specialising takes years and years of work. You can be really good at one thing, but it wil lcome at the expense of others; or you can be kinda good at a few things, but you'll never be truly great at any of them that way either. You can't be good at everything, and you certainly can't do it while you are grinding at a 9-5 and doing whatever it is as your passion project.

AI is perfect for actually giving life to those visions, at least when the tool is used right. AI can help turn all those "one day, one day" unfinished pet projects of depressed 30-something nerds, into something real.

The creator still has to think of the ideas, AI doesn't do that part for you.
 
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One question that is always on my mind when talking about AI generated stuff is: Do anyone actually enjoys consuming those? Or is it always on the same level as throwaway media?

I personally do not consume anything that i can perceive as majorly made with AI-generation because it strikes me personally as something the creator did not want to be completely responsible for.
What works are creators "completely responsible for?"

Most authors aren't good artists or graphic designers and will have someone else do their book cover. Is that a personal failing on their part, because they weren't personally responsible for it? Any degree of responsibility they would have over it would be identical whether they commissioned a person or asked AI, both are getting another entity to make it for you because you know you can't do it yourself. And in fact, an AI cover might even demonstrate more personal involvement, because you don't have the interpersonal dilemma of wondering if you're bothering the artist for too many revisions, or just settling for the best they're able to do even when it doesn't totally satisfy you. With AI, you can work with it endlessly until you're fully satisfied. It also represents more of the user's own tastes and expression, because with them being a non-artist, it's likely to have mistakes, poor layout, bad lighting, which a traditional artist wouldn't have done. In other words the author is fully responsible for the AI cover with all its mistakes, it represents what they thought it should look like completely, with no one else involved to "fix" their vision.

We discussed on an earlier page of the thread that the vast majority of hit songs from the past few decades were all written by a tiny cabal of songwriters who just pass out the songs to astroturfed artists to perform. Those bands aren't "completely responsible for" their albums, right? So you ought not to enjoy them. You have to deeply research every song you listen to in order to make sure the band is fully personally responsible for every aspect of production.

Tons of game devs buy assets from asset stores, or use middleware like SpeedTree to give them serviceable trees that they don't have to build themselves. Do you know which games these are, and avoid them? What if they use tools like FMOD? You'd better not enjoy those games, the creators were too lazy to write their own sound engine and be fully responsible for their own creation.

It lacks intentional decision of the creator, who instead of looking and building every detail of something just hand-waves it as not important for the totality of what is being made. Given that the author does not think it was worthy to engage with all aspects of what they made, it just feels dumb to have myself then consume something that not even who created it put their all into it, so i would rather just go somewhere else where i know that even if not great i can safely try to gleam what the author wanted to show me knowing that in the end it was an actual real person responsible for it.
Sometimes the only part of the work that matters is the intentional part made by the creator.

I Glued My Balls To My Butthole Again was the first popular AI song. Its creator wrote the lyrics, which is the important part. This is someone who knows how to come up with a funny idea, but doesn't have the means to fully realize it. A decade ago he would've sent a chat message to a few friends to say "hey guys I wrote these funny lyrics, what do you think" and that would be the end of it. Who has the money to write a stupid-ass song like this and then hire a group of singers and musicians and master it as if it was an old 50s song? It's not meant to be deep and moving, it's meant to be funny, and the humor is increased by the fact that it has an air of authenticity, to imagine that people back then would've actually sang this song. It only exists as it does due to AI.

NeuralViz's creations were the first popular AI video series. The creator actually puts significant work into it. If you know anything about AI video generation, you know that you can only get 5 to 10 seconds from it at a time, which means you have to generate a lot of individual parts and then edit it together. He also uses a program to capture his head and face movements and casts it onto these weird aliens, also performing all the voices himself with a voice changer. Above all, he's good at writing comedy. Every word out of his character's mouths and every bit of comedic timing is fully designed by him, and it shows, which is why it became popular. This is a series that would've required 3D modelers and animators, musicians, all sorts of other people involved just a few years ago. But with AI he was able to make all of it himself. Doesn't that give him even more ownership over it? Hell, he never has to compromise his vision, which often comes from working with others. No blue-haired autist 3D modeler lady getting triggered by this or that comment, no HR or focus groups telling him to tone down the weirdness. It's unabashedly his vision.

And more like this is cropping up as more people learn to use AI to bring their ideas to life.

Are you going to stop using Kiwi Farms because Josh is too lazy to have full ownership over the forum code, and is using Claude to write fixes for him and enhance things?
 
Are you going to stop using Kiwi Farms because Josh is too lazy to have full ownership over the forum code, and is using Claude to write fixes for him and enhance things?

I agree with all of your points, and I think what amuses me the most about this is that some form of AI is in fucking EVERYTHING that these alleged anti-AI types use on a daily basis. I've noticed the masses often conflate generative AI and LLM with "AI" as well, but it's baffling to me they don't realize how much if it is embedded in everything from transportation and navigation systems and medical devices to the algorithms that gives them more social media content to sperg/chimp out over and junk to browse and consoom.

On top of that, they don't appreciate how most of this stuff makes their lives markedly BETTER and easier, and how whiny they'd get if they had to suddenly do without it as anyone living in the modern world has adapted to life with AI in some form since the '50s.

I'd be willing to bet the majority are also unwilling to part with Instagram, Xwitter, fast fashion, fast food, or anything else they gleefully enjoy under this "horrible capitalist society" they live in.

With the sanctimonious way these types talk about the ~ethics of AI, you'd think they'd all be proponents of totally living off the land and being virtually isolated from everything and everyone, but no, they are average consoomers who consoom and barely (if at all) educate themselves on the very basics of AI itself.
 
One question that is always on my mind when talking about AI generated stuff is: Do anyone actually enjoys consuming those? Or is it always on the same level as throwaway media?

I personally do not consume anything that i can perceive as majorly made with AI-generation because it strikes me personally as something the creator did not want to be completely responsible for. It lacks intentional decision of the creator, who instead of looking and building every detail of something just hand-waves it as not important for the totality of what is being made. Given that the author does not think it was worthy to engage with all aspects of what they made, it just feels dumb to have myself then consume something that not even who created it put their all into it, so i would rather just go somewhere else where i know that even if not great i can safely try to gleam what the author wanted to show me knowing that in the end it was an actual real person responsible for it.
I am not saying every content made by real people is then worthy of being consumed, there is plenty of shit made by all sorts of people that is not worth the bytes of data used to transport it to my computer, stuff like ads, marketing material, content farm articles and whatnot always existed and I do not concern myself with paying attention to what some random ad is trying to sell me.

So when i ask the thread if anyone actually enjoys stuff mainly created with generated assets, what I am asking is does watching that stuff adds to anything on your own mind and soul? Or is it always some slapdash garbage made to be scrolled by without a second glance?
Ai is a tool, like any other. It can be used to make content farm slop or low-effort shit posts, but that doesn't mean an artist can't also use ai to fulfill his vision or that he can't be particular about what ends up in the final version. Runch has already mentioned Neural Viz, but Aze Alter in another youtuber who uses ai to make his videos.


All of his videos were clearly made with a vision of what he wanted, none of them are slapdash garbage or lacking intentional decisions.
 
And also consider how many artists already talk about "happy accidents" or finding the piece along the way. Bob Ross always advocated for this. Doesn't that mean he didn't create with perfect intent for every aspect of the image? You paint a tree and it comes out more prominent than you had wanted, but then you shrug and decide you like it better that way anyway. Or you'll rework the surrounding imagery to make it work better.

There are whole disciplines like watercolor where the point is to skillfully sacrifice control to the watery paint and let it do its job to convey a more ethereal look. You don't have precise control over its subtle gradients, and that's the point.

AI can be on a different level in terms of sacrificing control, but I'm saying you have to word your criticism more carefully to make sure you're not accidentally condemning entire artistic disciplines.
 
So the wall textures in a hero shooter are supposed to add to your mind and soul? AI is perfectly fine for shit like that.
Why do you ask that question in the first place?
What's the problem? Is it cause it's inhuman, something made by nature you would also reject? Is it cause it's mundane so you wouldn't find something to appreciate if it was too basic?

If the generated object or media is of good quality why would you care? Could you even tell in the first place that it was generate and not made if it was good enough?
I can't give you any completely logical explanation of it, since its just a idiosyncrasy of mine, but i just feel like when i personally open myself to a piece of media i'd like to gleam the authors brain from what they chose to show me, and in that case seeing an aspect of it that was AI-generated basically signals that part is WYSIWYG, so there is no point of spending time looking deeper into it. What ends up happening is that the more of something is AI-generated, the more it feels just like random textures that do not matter, so the less i incentive i have to keep myself open to it.

That is not to say everything i consume is peak art that i fully immerse myself in, but i personally just did not find anything i could perceive as majorly AI-generated that i could do that with, and i doubt i could given what i explained above, so maybe i am just a luddite *sigh*

AI is perfect for actually giving life to those visions, at least when the tool is used right. AI can help turn all those "one day, one day" unfinished pet projects of depressed 30-something nerds, into something real.
Thats fine, theres nothing wrong with that. At most i would say that AI a lot of times makes people settle for something without giving it another pass. So that pet project might get done, but not worked on beyond it, which is fine i guess.
It is true that AI can be used to create easy cash grabs of dubious quality and "soulless slop", but it can also be used to create quality entertainment and even art. I think the felted AI PPP saga is a kind of art. Woaaaaah buddy!
Are you going to stop using Kiwi Farms because Josh is too lazy to have full ownership over the forum code, and is using Claude to write fixes for him and enhance things?
I don't think generated code or generic textures for padding scenery is the same as generated art, even though some forms of it can be considered art by means of ingenuity and problem solving, most of it is just made to be functional and not meant to be processed. Coding is one of the "better" uses for AI exactly for that, but even then a bunch of issues that are inherent to how quickly these tools can generate stuff (specially when the one piloting it can produce even more by disregarding common sense) starts to happen, and this more often than not ends up ruining stuff such as Curls bug bounty program.

I'm not particularly against people enjoying AI art, by any means. There is stuff that is even more soulless than the most farmy content-farm AI-generated reels can get you being aired on cable TV, and the worst part is that it was made by a real human. At most I think it is very annoying how saturated every place with user submitted content is now that AI generators are easily available, but thats less of an AI thing and more of a current state of the internet issue.
 
I actually think that Gen AI requires a lot of creativity and knowledge to use well and effectively, and I wish more people stopped foaming at the mouth with moral outrage for a moment to slow down and actually consider this. Unfortunately, the moral panic gets in the way of people experimenting with it and finding this out for themselves. Ironically, they all too often end up acting just as parrot-like and non-sentient as the LLM models, repeating the same stats and party lines as their peers as to why AI is "bad" and "harmful" and "theft."

A lot of people seem to they think it's as shallow as "write an 800 word essay on Shakespeare and why he's a genius lol," before copying and pasting that into a Word document and calling it a day.

Sure, you can easily do that, but that's also frankly fucking retarded.

A good writer and creative person can absolutely use something like ChatGPT very creatively. Because it's an amalgamation of all general human knowledge (which is frankly really fucking cool), you can use it as a super fast, super specific "idea thesaurus" in a million different ways and then some, and because it keeps track of your ideas (as well as your suggestions and corrections), it's infinitely more helpful than "lol just ask reddit" as some suggest.

You can also tweak and tailor each tiny idea until its to your liking. You can ask it to revise specific passages in a specific way while referencing or imitating other writers (before then REVISING those yourself in meticulous detail). You can have it organize your outline, YOUR custom outline, and it does it quickly and effectively and exactly how you want it to. It's whatever you want it to be, and I think that's really innovative and exciting. I hate this idea that all art and creativity is dependent on the slavish, mind-numbing grunt work elements in order to qualify as art and creativity. That's absolute reductive nonsense. We might as well get rid of Google and go back to only browsing individual library volumes to find a single quote or source.

Bottom line is, if you use it to help you write, you have to also ALREADY BE A GOOD WRITER to discern which suggestions are remotely worthwhile or well-written or interesting, and sane enough to know it's a robot, it's going to make errors and spit out retarded things sometimes, and it needs to be consistently challenged and corrected.

So basically, this idea that it's a total creativity killer is utter nonsense, and that's just touching on ONE aspect of its uses. I've seen some truly talented visual work done too by people who may have an in-depth knowledge of theory and concept but lack the equipment and/or drawing ability to bring their ideas to life otherwise. It's really no different to me than using pre-recorded sounds and templates to create electronic music, and no less "lazy."
 
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That is not to say everything i consume is peak art that i fully immerse myself in, but i personally just did not find anything i could perceive as majorly AI-generated that i could do that with, and i doubt i could given what i explained above, so maybe i am just a luddite
Test your perception by trying the AI Art Turing Test (archive). The answers are here (archive) but don't peek. Keep in mind that any AI images shown are a few generations behind the capabilities of today's top models, so a more recent equivalent of this test would probably be a lot harder.

I think most would agree that most of the time things with obvious AI artifacts, that display a lack of care by the person showing it, are not worth looking at. Slop is a real phenomenon, most people don't like it. But whether something is slop says more about the skills and taste of the person who prompted it than about the capabilities of AI writ large, especially very capable modern models. A lot of people also overrate their own ability to even tell if something is AI generated.

At most i would say that AI a lot of times makes people settle for something without giving it another pass.
But AI makes it way easier to do another pass than just about anything else. You can rerun your prompt, or spend ages tweaking stuff with a model like Nano Banana, let alone something like the Krita AI diffusion plugin.

Coding is one of the "better" uses for AI exactly for that, but even then a bunch of issues that are inherent to how quickly these tools can generate stuff (specially when the one piloting it can produce even more by disregarding common sense) starts to happen, and this more often than not ends up ruining stuff such as Curls bug bounty program.
The flipside of this is that security researchers who know what they're doing are using AI to find and confirm real bugs much faster than would otherwise be possible. It's a force multiplier for what you put into it.
 
i just feel like when i personally open myself to a piece of media i'd like to gleam the authors brain from what they chose to show me
I try not to be pedantic but you've said it a few times now. It's glean, and it basically means gain, so you wouldn't be "gleaning" the author's brain. Sounds like you just want to say you want to get insight into their thought processes.

But you can still easily do that just as much with AI. Again, listen to I Glued My Balls To My Butthole Again. Imagine that song was genuinely recorded by a live band. Does that really give you better insight into the creator in any way at all? A dude wanted to make a ridiculous song. That comes across whether it's AI or not.

What you're saying is kind of cope. No one genuinely sits around saying "mmm yes, quite, the fact that Jamal Browningham the Third was one of the backup singers on IGMBTMBA truly speaks to his state of mind as an artist, it informs the listener of the kind of man he is, and provides a greater interpersonal connection with his body of work, perchance, per se." You want to imply you engage with art like that, but you almost certainly don't.
 
You want to imply you engage with art like that, but you almost certainly don't.
There are levels to it, but i'd say I do a pretty good job at looking and why's and how's of stuff that I enjoyed a lot, and maybe not to the level you imply because yeah, sometimes it really is not that deep, but I'd say most of the time when looking up why some piece of media struck a chord with me I do also find material pointing as to what kind of circumstances and life experience brought an author to write what they wrote the way the did, such as how Tolkien's experience in the great war helped shape the way he wrote about conflict in Lord of the Rings, or how David Simon's experience as a journalist covering crime helped him make The Wire a very visceral experience on comparison to your usual crime drama. That is not always the case of course, not everything is made with that much heart poured into it.

So basically, this idea that it's a total creativity killer is utter nonsense, and that's just touching on ONE aspect of its uses. I've seen some truly talented visual work done too by people who may have an in-depth knowledge of theory and concept but lack the equipment and/or drawing ability to bring their ideas to life otherwise. It's really no different to me than using pre-recorded sounds and templates to create electronic music, and no less "lazy."

But AI makes it way easier to do another pass than just about anything else. You can rerun your prompt, or spend ages tweaking stuff with a model like Nano Banana, let alone something like the Krita AI diffusion plugin.
I do agree that good artists can make anything work for them, and there will always be people pushing the envelope of what one can do using AI in their workflow, which is nice, but I just find hard to be optimistic about the average person using AI as a force multiplier instead of a full replacement for their artistic needs when the path of least resistance is the one usually picked by most.

Maybe when the dust settles a bit more the good AI-generated stuff will rise to the top instead of being thrown together with the insane amount of sludge around.
 
I can't give you any completely logical explanation of it, since its just a idiosyncrasy of mine, but i just feel like when i personally open myself to a piece of media i'd like to gleam the authors brain from what they chose to show me, and in that case seeing an aspect of it that was AI-generated basically signals that part is WYSIWYG, so there is no point of spending time looking deeper into it. What ends up happening is that the more of something is AI-generated, the more it feels just like random textures that do not matter, so the less i incentive i have to keep myself open to it.
@dezazlop

Yes, there are people that just throw keywords into the prompt and see whatever happens, generate dozens of works, and pick one that they like to show off as if it was the result was their vision all along.

But there are also people that spent hours tweaking their prompts and hundreds of credits just to get an image to their idea of perfection.

You are making a lot of assumptions to justify your feelings. Nothing wrong with that, but it also exposes that you are making armchair sweeping observations without really knowing what happens in AI creation.
 
So the wall textures in a hero shooter are supposed to add to your mind and soul? AI is perfectly fine for shit like that.
I think the ideal solution for a lot of games going forward with be AI with a competent senior to tard wrangle the outputs.

You could probably use concept artist sketches as inputs and then use touched up art from Nano or wherever as inputs for high poly models to use for bakes.

There's an entire strata of people from outsourced bugmen to bitchy diversity managers on SSRIs that simply doesn't need to be involved in this process anymore.
 
I'd say most of the time when looking up why some piece of media struck a chord with me I do also find material pointing as to what kind of circumstances and life experience brought an author to write what they wrote the way the did, such as how Tolkien's experience in the great war helped shape the way he wrote about conflict in Lord of the Rings
If AI had somehow existed in Tolkien's time and he'd used it to assist with writing and it had somehow resulted in LoTR as we have it now, you could still infer that he shaped the text to represent his experience and subsequent philosophies stemming from the war.

Talking about this almost feels like a trivia question, like "did you know that Viggo Mortensen broke his foot for real when he kicked that helmet?! Did you?!" While it may be true, it doesn't necessarily mean that you really KNOW the person.

Watch this Neural Viz video. It's made with AI, but it still informs you of the creator's views and experiences. You know that this person has some understanding of "Minnesota nice," you know some of their opinions on current events. You might even infer that Minnesota is where they're from and they've known lots of people like this. What is lost, in the fact that this is AI?

Watch this other Neural Viz video. It also helps inform you of the creator's views and experiences and what they find funny. Only someone brought up on a diet of national TV news could've made this.

Even the fact that these were made with AI helps tell you something about their creator! The time period they live in, the attitudes that allow them to think "I can use this in an expressive way" rather than to swiftly reject it...if you want reasons to examine this guy's mind, you can find them.

Read this article about him, you can dive deeper into his mindset if that's what you want to get from any media you consume.
 
What ends up happening is that the more of something is AI-generated, the more it feels just like random textures that do not matter, so the less i incentive i have to keep myself open to it.
Sounds to me like you have some kind of autism that makes you focus on the details over the bigger picture or something.

Bottom line is, if you use it to help you write, you have to also ALREADY BE A GOOD WRITER to discern which suggestions are remotely worthwhile or well-written or interesting, and sane enough to know it's a robot, it's going to make errors and spit out retarded things sometimes, and it needs to be consistently challenged and corrected.
While I like AI as a tool, what you are talking about here is why I sometimes have some apprehensions about it too. As you say, to properly use AI you already have to be good at what you do and understand what it is it's generating and how to incorporate it into your envisioned project.

But what happens when you have countless young people that are relying on it entirely instead of learning the basics? Will we end up with a generation where fewer and fewer people are competent enough to even make good use of AI?

On the other hand, it's not like people weren't already cheating the system way before AI. There are people who make a living writing bachelors or masters thesis papers for others who can't be arsed to put in the effort themselves and just want their degree to move on with their lives.

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Test your perception by trying the AI Art Turing Test (archive). The answers are here (archive) but don't peek.
I was curios so I took the test so to speak. I got 31 right and 19 wrong. For the ones I got wrong I was slightly more likely to think a human made piece was AI lol.
right: 1, 2, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9, 10, 13, 16, 19, 20, 21, 23, 24, 26, 27, 29, 33, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 46, 47, 50,
wrong: 3, 6, 11, 12, 14, 15, 17, 18, 22, 25, 28, 30, 31, 32, 34, 35, 45, 48, 49,
 
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