Legend of Zelda thread - Lorefags GTFO!

I don't get Ganon vs Ganondorf at all.
One's the pig demon the other is his human form. No I don't get it either that's just how it is.
Ganondorf is exclusively used for the human Gerudo. Ganon mostly refers to the pig demon/monster/Calamity form, but it also used as a more informal name for Ganondorf (mostly in Wind Waker). I think the main reason they did it was to have "Ganondorf" as the main bad guy for all of OoT, then at the end it would be this cool moment when he transforms and the boss title just reads GANON.
 
Wasn't Ganondorf mentioned ever since aLttP, as the man that went to the Golden land, obtained the Triforce and turned it into the Dark world or something like that?
I think the manual. I don't recall the intro name dropping Ganondorf at all. I know for a fact I had never heard of "Ganondorf" prior to OoT because I had a copy of ALttP from a neighbor without the manual.

An edit, I decided to check the SNES transcript and Ganondorf is mentioned by the Maiden after clearing the Swamp/Misery Mire dungeon. I could never get that far as a little kid and never read it myself when watching my dad and older brother play. So Ganondorf is in the game outside the manual - Dragmire was an invention of NoA though, Which is why it's never appeared again.
 
Yup, which is why Ocarina was created as a prequel to ALTTP. It's showing who Ganondorf was and how he got the power. And I'm pretty sure ALTTP was created as a prequel to 1.
Originally ALTTP was prequel to LoZ and LoZ2, and then Ocarina was a prequel to ALTTP and then obviously you had MM which was a sequel to the prequel of the prequel of the original's prequel. But then later I think that they changed it to where ALTTP actually took place after LoZ and LoZ2. I honestly can't remember anymore and frankly who cares? It's a legend, it could have taken place in any order at any time, or it could be entirely made up.

I'm just going to post this video here again because it will never not be relevant to this discussion and it makes me laugh:
 
There are charts with the timeline. I think the Hyrule Historia has a pretty good one but it hasn't been updated since BOTW
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Looking at this updated one, a logical conclusion is that the events of Ocarina split the timeline into three different alternate realities, which slowly began to degrade as they were represented by only one of the Triforces with the other two being weakened. The Fallen Hero had most of the Wisdom Triforce, the Child Hero had the most of the Courage Triforce, and the Missing Hero had the Power Triforce dominant. The events of ALBW, while repairing the Lorule Triforce incidentally re-linked the three original timelines which slowly began to merge, hence why BOTW had relics from all three timelines. It might have been a catastrophic merger, which basically shattered all three timelines that formed around a new one based on the lowest common denominator of primitives, with the other parts of the timeline slowly being stitched back in - explaining why Zelda and Zelda II are missing so much, as the new timeline was still reforming and it didn't have all it's history yet. Zelda going back in time to the very beginning of the timeline completely threw things off the rails and drew the attention of the Zonai who became more involved in Hyrule.
 
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What is wrong with it?
I hate the four timelines and I hate the whole "Three timelines becoming one" thing. But I've also always been in the camp where the timeline doesn't really matter since it's the Legend of Zelda and so I've always seen each game as only tangentially related to each other except for the obvious direct continuations. Sort of like how the Mad Max films are ostensibly a collection of stories that various peoples tell about the legendary Max and not necessarily continuations of each other, or how various mythologies and religions throughout the world will tell stories that feature recurring characters and themes but are not collectively all one unbroken chain of events.

The Legend of Zelda is connected by many things; recurring characters, recurring places, recurring themes, but that's because they are legends passed down generationally by the people of Hyrule (or a potential successor civilization of Hyrule) and so while they all share common threads they are not all one yarn.
 
ate the four timelines and I hate the whole "Three timelines becoming one" thing.
All in all the whole timeline is just a poor excuse for goytendo to recycle characters, change the map while keeping the name and keep the IP.
Zelda's timeline is retarded, and the only times recycling characters worked was with MM and Link's awakening.
 
The "Downfall" Timeline was always a mistake, but it was a way to handwave the old games that no longer fit with Ocarina and the stuff that came after it. Funny enough, the Downfall timeline has had more games added to it than the others (ALBW, EoW, and TFH).

A timeline merge is patently retarded; the only way to argue for it is to say that Hyrule Warriors is canon and Cia's shenanigans merged the timelines.

The timeline/s doesn't/don't matter, but I've always had fun talking about and speculating over them.
What is wrong with it?
Oracles being an interlude between ALttP and LA is the most egregious thing, it was never thre case and people latched onto MUH BOAT. Even the Encyclopedia - which came out after Historia - puts them after LA as a different hero (though within the same "era"). The Encyclopedia largely matches the current website (missing the games that weren't out at the time). Of course, Nintendo's official timeline/s are always dubious because they can change them whenever they want.

I'll argue to my death that FS should be directly before FSA, and even feature the same Link.
 
recurring characters, recurring places, recurring themes
Back references being sprinkled throughout the game only really started outside of main characters with Wind Waker, and that was entirely because you could contrast the drastically different setting.

the only times recycling characters worked was with MM and Link's awakening.
Those games don’t even recycle characters. Majora’s Mask recycles character models, but the visuals are where the similarity largely ends.
 
I've thought about this before, but I feel like it get tedious while the games are designed the way they are. It would make more sense if the game world had a more Metroidvania or Soulslike design where it's basically a giant interconnected dungeon, so no massive fields would need to keep crossing to get from one part of the map to another. Traversal would have to be more about routing than about feeling expansive.
So basically Darkworld from LTTP, but in 3D. It'd be interesting to try.
Not really. The issue is that the lack of a time limit combined with the lack of a central plot makes the game feel very static and dead. "Yeah, sure, go spend 40 hours unlocking every shrine and gathering up 600 Korok Seeds. Ganon and Zelda will both wait patiently while you do and the gamestate of the map won't change at all in the meantime either."
To be fair, you can say that about just about every game in the series outside Majora's Mask.

"Yeah sure, go collect Poes in Hyrule field. Zelda and Gannondorf will wait in the meantime."
Its just me or Zelda fans have a love-hate relationship with BotW?
Like, they admit its a great game, maybe the best of the series, but they do so reluctantly, because of its changes and what impact the game had on both the series and goytendo?
Never played it anyway, I only know the final boss is ass and its a open world slop done right.
I really like BOTW. I think the 3D series was getting stale because there hadn't been a shakeup in the design in around 20 years by the time BOTW came out outside of things like "It's 3D Zelda but now he has a boat!" I'm not saying the formula they came up with in for OOT wasn't great, but the series had become stagnant.

I feel like with BOTW they were trying to create a post apocalyptic wasteland in the Zelda style and they did a great job of it. They just nailed this lonely, atmospheric setting where it feels like you're living in a world that has suffered some sort of horrible calamity and only a few on the outskirts of that world have survived. It's very clearly a world on the decline where people are still trying to scrape out an existence. A lot of people complain about the lack of a story, but it really doesn't need one because the world speaks volumes. You'll com across a random burned out house surrounded by broken guardians and you're reminded that this is a world that has been destroyed in some long ago conflict. I really feel like it's the kind of thing they were going for with the future in Zelda 64 where you you never actually see what happens after you get the Master Sword, you wake up after seven years and everything is just all fucked up and decaying. There's been a war and your side already lost. BOTW isn't perfect, though. The divine beasts are kind of a joke, and there really should have been four proper linear Zelda dungeons accessed from this gigantic overworld they set up. I think they were trying to go for something different with the Divine Beasts, but it just doesn't work.

TOTK is still a pretty good game, but they did away with the empty, lonely feeling of BOTW. Now instead of a tower being in a giant bog hole that will suck you in and you have to figure out how to get to the top without any real direction, a guy will be there and he'll directly tell you an elevator is broken and you have to fix it to get him to the tower so he can fix it. It does have the depths, which I think saves the game, but besides that it's just BOTW with a lot of what made BOTW special stripped out of it and a bunch of complicated physics crammed in to compensate.

If the next game is similar to BOTW formula, I feel like the series would just be stagnating again. BOTW was a moment in time where their ambitions got reigned in by the limitations of the Wii U and helped them captured lightning in a bottle, giving people this stripped down, atmospheric experience. They need to do something different again now. I think marrying BOTW with more traditional 3D Zelda design as others have mentioned here would be an interesting project.
 
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To be fair, you can say that about just about every game in the series outside Majora's Mask.
I feel it less with the other games because those collect-a-thons take place in between major story sections and so the stakes have typically changed.
 
To be fair, you can say that about just about every game in the series outside Majora's Mask.

"Yeah sure, go collect Poes in Hyrule field. Zelda and Gannondorf will wait in the meantime."
This is a problem with a lot of games in general, but Ocarina is a bad example IMO. There's no impending threat in the adult timeline. Ganondorf has essentially won and is just waiting for Link and Zelda to bring the other two pieces to him.
 
I've thought about this before, but I feel like it get tedious while the games are designed the way they are. It would make more sense if the game world had a more Metroidvania or Soulslike design where it's basically a giant interconnected dungeon, so no massive fields would need to keep crossing to get from one part of the map to another. Traversal would have to be more about routing than about feeling expansive.
This is what the Depths should have been, Let the main world map and sky be this large, open, free area that's easy to traverse. The Depths should have been tightly designed, full of ruins and shit getting in your way. Basically a huge subterranean dungeon that you need to enter from different points to "connect" all of it together. I've wanted a huge sprawling underworld dungeon for a very long time. Take a Souls map and stick it down there, but give it that Zelda flair of puzzles and shit.
 
This is a problem with a lot of games in general, but Ocarina is a bad example IMO. There's no impending threat in the adult timeline. Ganondorf has essentially won and is just waiting for Link and Zelda to bring the other two pieces to him.
I think part of the issue with BOTW is they needed a way to keep Zelda busy to explain her absence, so they made her actively containing Ganon. It probably would have been better to just frame Calamity Ganon as a force of nature that has no need to leave the castle, but is actively causing Guardians to attack and monsters to pop up across the land, and Zelda is stuck in a slumber that can only be broken if Calamity Ganon is defeated or some bullshit.
 
I think part of the issue with BOTW is they needed a way to keep Zelda busy to explain her absence, so they made her actively containing Ganon. It probably would have been better to just frame Calamity Ganon as a force of nature that has no need to leave the castle, but is actively causing Guardians to attack and monsters to pop up across the land, and Zelda is stuck in a slumber that can only be broken if Calamity Ganon is defeated or some bullshit.
So like if they had her trapped in a crystal where she couldn't move or age but could communicate with Link telepathically, and weakening Ganon breaks her out?
 
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