Star Wars Griefing Thread (SPOILERS) - Safety off

[Safir]

and the whole bomber should be filled with nothing but a hard vacuum and the floating, shock-frosted body of a hot asian chick.

Oh god no, awesome effortpost and then this.
Vacuum doesn't shock-frost anything because there's no conduction or convection. It's not common-sense "cold", temperature as a physical property has an extremely complicated definition that kind of matches the common-sense concept in daily life (and even then, people say metal surfaces in winter are "colder" than wooden ones).

The only way things can cool off in vacuum is radiation, which is T quadrupled and laughably small on a mundane scale. A human in vacuum (with a breathing apparatus in a pressure suit) is going to die from heat stroke.

Laws of War only really applied when you are on the losing end.

Laws of War is how you win. Star Wars as a setting is not dumb enough for ultimate evils and destroying the universe; at the end of the day, you want the enemy faction to join your society and positively contribute to it, and that is only going to happen if they understand they were beaten fair and square. If the population is instead killing your tax collectors, putting jawa poison in your blue milk, and blowing up your planets, you haven't actually won.

 

[Ghostse]

The modern version of diplomatic immunity is commonly attributed to Genghis Khan, who responded to the murder of his ambassadors with the Mongols' signature "mountains of skulls" deal. You're right in that faking a diplomatic envoy is a dick move, but the Empire and Rebellion are already in a state of total war; it's only because these movies require their antagonists to be utterly exceptional that Hux doesn't just cut Poe off with a turbolaser salvo. Risking an enemy being galvanized to your total destruction isn't a big deal when that's what they're already in the process of trying.

If Star Wars was a gritter narrative, you'd be right. But its space opera. The in-universe logic is meant to be consistent only as a mechanism for providing tension for what's happening. If the in-universe logic goes against what the audience expects, then it is the in-universe logic that is wrong.
edit: That is, the universe should FEEL realistic, but not necessary BE realistic. These are sometimes two separate things.

Also, while you talk about two sides going at it, no holds barred, you're ignoring the audience - both the theater going audience who, due to their lived moral framework, will expect both sides to behave as though it isn't a war of total annihilation, and the wider in-universe Galactic audience of Systems and Races, who might view one side or the other being untrustworthy and have it hamper future negotiations.

If you look at human history, there are periods where the established order has broken down into pure chaos (crusades, periods in china, Mongols to an extent), but zero-morals total war is a very unsustainable state of affairs, so soon order starts to arise. And the order that comes out it is generally very Geneva-convention like.

Also there are plenty of real-world instances of one of side or the other using a truce or peace negotiation as cover for maneuvering their forces.

Anyway, the whole line of thought is arguing around the real problem: Man Baby Johnson was 100% "Guns and military are BAD and ICKY" and didn't consult anyone who actually knew how military shit works in the real world, so you end up with THIS IS WHAT HOLLYWOOD ELITE ACTUALLY BELIEVE.

 

[RomanesEuntDomus]

Fair enough; I didn't have the same reaction, but I suppose that's just some form of values dissonance between us. The cloned mamluks from the prequels really rubbed me the wrong way, for example, but that didn't seem to be a common reaction.

Truth being told, it took me some time to figure out just why that scene felt so utterly wrong myself. When I first saw it, I knew something was off, but it took me a day or two to figure out the reason was that Poe had essentially violated a very basic concept of diplomacy.

The modern version of diplomatic immunity is commonly attributed to Genghis Khan, who responded to the murder of his ambassadors with the Mongols' signature "mountains of skulls" deal. You're right in that faking a diplomatic envoy is a dick move, but the Empire and Rebellion are already in a state of total war; it's only because these movies require their antagonists to be utterly exceptional that Hux doesn't just cut Poe off with a turbolaser salvo. Risking an enemy being galvanized to your total destruction isn't a big deal when that's what they're already in the process of trying.

That's certainly true, it really doesn't matter in the Resistance - FO conflict.
I'd just point out that the Resistance is only one of many players in this setting, the whole movie hinges on them hunkering down in some abondoned base and trying to phone some old friends and hoping they will come to their aide.

So, the whole galaxy isn't split into only 2 camps, there's several... but since neither Abrams nor Ruin felt a need to establish anything about this movie, we have no clue what is going on politically.
The OT didn't need to cover that aspect, but the ST should really address it one way or the other.
The Resistance will be forced to negotiate with someone who's not the FO sooner or later and they might even have an armed conflict or the threat of an armed conflict to deal with.

There's a traitor in the Resistance, which is how the tracker got there; Holdo couldn't be sure it wasn't Poe.

Since Poe is the guy who blew up the Megadeathstar, that's not an issue.

Or even if she was sure it was Poe, Poe has shown himself to be reckless and disregarding orders, he might unintentionally let knowledge of the plan slip.

Well, that last part makes a little more sense. Given Poe's actions in TLJ itself, just presenting him with any plan would have been sufficient and a somewhat decent one would not cause any issues whatsoever. He was reckless and disregarded orders, but that lead to a significant strategic victory.

As a counterpoint, I would present this idea:

How about Leia orders him to abondon the Dreadnaught, so they can get away quicker, Poe ignores that order, he destroys the Dreadnaught, but then the Supremacy with the tracker shows up and the fleet is fucked due to Poe's decision not to retreat. The point could be that causing casualties to the enemy was less important than to haul ass ASAP, this could highlight a difference in goals between Poe and Leia. Poe is focused on being a hero that fights the enemy, Leia's main priority is to keep her fleet safe.
Both want to win against the FO, but both have different priorities, based on their different positions. Poe has to order around a few squadrons, Leia has to take care of an entire fleet with some ships that aren't even armed.

That would set up a certain conflict for Poe and give him an organic direction to grow...

Oh god no, awesome effortpost and then this.
Vacuum doesn't shock-frost anything because there's no conduction or convection. It's not common-sense "cold", temperature as a physical property has an extremely complicated definition that kind of matches the common-sense concept in daily life (and even then, people say metal surfaces in winter are "colder" than wooden ones).

The only way things can cool off in vacuum is radiation, which is T quadrupled and laughably small on a mundane scale. A human in vacuum (with a breathing apparatus in a pressure suit) is going to die from heat stroke.

I am aware that vacuum has no temperature, however the atmosphere within the bomber would expand as it leaks out and thus cools down significantly. If I'm not mistaken, water on the skin also would freeze... I guess I was overdoing it by saying it would be "shock frosted", guess it would be more correct to refer to it as bloated, anyway.

 

[SuperSheep]

There's a traitor in the Resistance, which is how the tracker got there; Holdo couldn't be sure it wasn't Poe. Or even if she was sure it wasn't Poe, Poe has shown himself to be reckless and disregarding orders, he might unintentionally let knowledge of the plan slip. If the traitor tells the FO Holdo's wise to their tracker but isn't doing anything about it, FO might suspect a trap, call off the pursuit, and the whole plan to take out the Dreadnaught fails.

Poe did blow up Starkiller Base, which could have annihilated the Resistance base the previous movie. I doubt if Poe was the traitor, he'd have destroyed that super-massive base just to get in good with the Resistance when he could have let it wipe out the Resistance.

Her seeing him as being a loose-lipped glory hound, however, works.

 

[Godzilla@1989]

I think both you and @Dom Cruise are right in different ways.

I'd say the late 2010's probably is the lowest point of pop culture in living memory for most people, which is part of why the quality works of this era such as Joker and Chernobyl tend to really stand out above and beyond. Blade Runner 2049 was a box office failure, but was a great movie that earned its cult following.

Hell, even Detective Pikachu could end up as one of the better films from the late 2010's. It didn't really have any SJW baggage and was a good popcorn comedy flick, and it's also probably the first live-action video game movie to truly succeed at both box office sales and audience reception. The fact that it was a video game movie that "broke the curse" is notable in and of itself, but overall I'd say the best movie of the current era is probably Joker.

Honestly, I'd say the massive success of Joker will be a major turning point for the direction of pop culture in the 2020's, especially if Rise of Skywalker turns out to be a massive flop.

My best guess is that Rise of Skywalker will be to The Last Jedi what Attack of the Clones was to Phantom Menace.

Episode II was the worst of the prequels and was probably the worst Star Wars movie before the Disney films, but in retrospect, it doesn't get as much hate as Episode I did because The Phantom Menace torpedoed all the good buzz and hype surrounding the prequels.

The Force Awakens sucks too, but it wasn't as much of a "franchise killer" as The Last Jedi was. Episode VII was a bland derivative retread, but it wasn't quite as full-on "woke" as Last Jedi and was able to skate by on people looking forward to a revived Star Wars after the prequels had faded from memory.

If George Lucas of all people somehow manages to save Episode IX at the last minute, that would be the ultimate form of ironic karmic justice.

The last part of the decade was nothing but cringe, the best films out of that era though in my opinion were Dunkirk, Blade Runner: 2049, Into the Spider-Verse, and Joker.

 

[Ghostse]

I am aware that vacuum has no temperature, however the atmosphere within the bomber would expand as it leaks out and thus cools down significantly. If I'm not mistaken, water on the skin also would freeze... I guess I was overdoing it by saying it would be "shock frosted", guess it would be more correct to refer to it as bloated, anyway.

Small hard vacuum sperg:
- WARNING - The reality will ruin lots of fiction! - WARNING -

First, due to low pressure, any liquids will sublimate (that is, "boil"/vaporize) not freeze.
Sci-fi where you see everything in space frozen can be accurate: it is very likely that before the atmosphere vented that the heaters went off. Once the water in the air has frozen, it will still sublimate, just at a much slower pace, until it gets cold enough that sublimation at zero pressure isn't possible. And it will get there. Eventually.

If immediately plunged into hard vaccuum, you won't freeze. Shit gets colder the higher up you go in Earth's atmosphere because there is still enough conductive atoms to pull away heat. That stops once you hit actual vacuum.
Do you know why Thermoses are so good at keeping hot things hot and cold things cold? Because they are vacuum bottles. Vaccum is the ultimate insulator because there is nothing to conduct heat. Heat in space is only lost via radiation.
(So why all the need for heaters on the ISS? Because the inside isn't vaccum. Its dry air with a lot of heat-sucking metal radiating into space)
IF your corpse is placed in space, far enough away from a source of heat (IE: the sun) the it will eventually freeze; well, unless its been pre-frozen it'll freeze dry first as all your liquids boil away. Your living, endothermic body will not; you'd likely feel very cold as your sweat instantly sublimates due to the zero pressure, but you'd definitely not flash-freeze.

Space is at zero (or nearly zero) pressure. That isn't enough to make the human body explode like a ripe tomato. If it was, trying to give yourself an arm hickey would cause your skin to catestrophically rupture. IIRC if you were to put on a sealed helmet and stroll otherwise naked out of an airlock, it is enough to give you some slight bruises, due to the capilaries in your skin being fully open (which when you return to pressure can trap bloodcells which can't escape once you're back in presure)

The major thing you'd need to worry about in space is the air in your lungs rapidly expanding.


Paige laying at the bottom of the ladder, passed out from the shock of having her lungs rupture and blood boiling out of her mouth from massive internal bleeding that is sublimating into the vacuum of the compromised bomber is how it would look.

Since Poe is the guy who blew up the Megadeathstar, that's not an issue.


Well, that last part makes a little more sense. Given Poe's actions in TLJ itself, just presenting him with any plan would have been sufficient and a somewhat decent one would not cause any issues whatsoever. He was reckless and disregarded orders, but that lead to a significant strategic victory.

As a counterpoint, I would present this idea:

How about Leia orders him to abondon the Dreadnaught, so they can get away quicker, Poe ignores that order, he destroys the Dreadnaught, but then the Supremacy with the tracker shows up and the fleet is fucked due to Poe's decision not to retreat. The point could be that causing casualties to the enemy was less important than to haul ass ASAP, this could highlight a difference in goals between Poe and Leia. Poe is focused on being a hero that fights the enemy, Leia's main priority is to keep her fleet safe.
Both want to win against the FO, but both have different priorities, based on their different positions. Poe has to order around a few squadrons, Leia has to take care of an entire fleet with some ships that aren't even armed.

That would set up a certain conflict for Poe and give him an organic direction to grow...

That's a better arc (and hews betterto the "protecting what we love" barf-inducing moralizing), but again I'm trying to stick to the "Holdo has a plan, success of that plan involves not telling that plan to anyone, but especially not Poe" narrative. Its less about creating a the best movie, and more about showcasing Ruin being a completely incompetent hack.

(Poe also wouldn't be the first war hero to potentially turn traitor. Maybe Holdo has evidence that the traitor is in Poe's squadron.)

 

[Syaoran Li]

The last part of the decade was nothing but cringe, the best films out of that era though in my opinion were Dunkirk, Blade Runner: 2049, Into the Spider-Verse, and Joker.

Dunkirk was pretty awesome, I'd say it's one of the three best films this year, alongside Blade Runner 2049 and Joker.

I mainly gave Detective Pikachu an honorable mention for being a video game movie that actually turned out good and did well. It's a great family comedy, but it's not as great as Joker or Dunkirk.

 

[SuperSheep]

(Poe also wouldn't be the first war hero to potentially turn traitor. Maybe Holdo has evidence that the traitor is in Poe's squadron.)

I doubt Poe would turn traitor inside a week.

 

[Ghostse]

I doubt Poe would turn traitor inside a week.

Fair point. I keep forgetting how fucking dumb Ruin was, and forgot he had the TLJ take place immediately after TFA instead of giving us a few years for everyone to grow a bit off-screen.

 

[Marissa Moira]

I think both you and @Dom Cruise are right in different ways.

I'd say the late 2010's probably is the lowest point of pop culture in living memory for most people, which is part of why the quality works of this era such as Joker and Chernobyl tend to really stand out above and beyond. Blade Runner 2049 was a box office failure, but was a great movie that earned its cult following.

I never cared for blade Runner 2049, I'm just not a big fan of documentaries.

 

[Optimus Prime]

So, rumor mill and outlets suggest that the still ongoing reshoots have now completely changed the ending, from 'Rey literally stomps a mudhole in the Emperor's ass' to 'a SECRET SKYWALKER appears in the third act somehow'.

This changed test audience reception from, out of 100, from a 4 to an 88.

Iger also is apparently micromanaging the shit out of Star Wars to the point of deflecting HARD during the latest Q4 conference call. We're in for a fucking show, folks, once RoS comes out. And I don't mean the actual movie which is going to be ass no matter what.

 

[Antipathy]

So, rumor mill and outlets suggest that the still ongoing reshoots have now completely changed the ending, from 'Rey literally stomps a mudhole in the Emperor's ass' to 'a SECRET SKYWALKER appears in the third act somehow'.

This changed test audience reception from, out of 100, from a 4 to an 88.

Iger also is apparently micromanaging the shit out of Star Wars to the point of deflecting HARD during the latest Q4 conference call. We're in for a fucking show, folks, once RoS comes out. And I don't mean the actual movie which is going to be ass no matter what.

Doomcock said that, yeah, but I'm thinking that there'll be some stupid fucking reveal about how REY was the secret skywalker, and then she'll beat the shit out of Palpatine with this asspull. The sudden lack of audience score details act-by-act for the second and third revisions, as well as a lack of confirmation about audience composition makes me wonder about those scores, too.

 

[Honka Honka Burning Love]

Star Wars is a story based on -our- moral principles. Pretending to be on a diplomatic mission to prepare a surprise attack is amoral. It is dishonorable, evil and it can and will backfire in the long run if you get the reputation of pretending to enter peaceful talks, just so you can slaughter the other side. Also, even though there is no Geneva Convention in Star Wars, there still have to be similar rules, since these emerge not out of some politician's whims but rather out of a diplomatic necessity.
Similar rules predate the Geneva Convention by centuries, if not millenia, in the past it relied on an honor system, which shows us how fundamental they are.

Therefore, Poe's actions are a dick move.

And yet, A Military Religious Organization that kidnaps children in order to make them into child "Peacekeepers" is just fine morally according to the setting.

but we can assume something similar exists because we know how people work, even in a galaxy far far away. sure, you can always argue war is war and who's gonna care, star wars the hague?

No, no we can't because the Republic has been such an entrenched power for thousands of years that we have no idea what actual laws they have. The Old Republic did after all send people with Mind Control powers into peace talks with The Trade Federation.

 

[Prompt Critical]

I wonder why this guy privated his account

View attachment 1001689

Slightly late here but holy shit this could not possibly be more wrong.

In the real life military, senior officers explain their decisions including the rationale behind them to everyone who has to execute those decisions. They do it all the time. It's considered a sign of effective leadership. It's especially important for your immediate subordinates since they're expected to give you feedback on your ideas and they're the ones who will have to execute them, so it's generally a good thing if they're kept in the loop.

If a nuclear aircraft carrier gets re-tasked and has to change the previous deployment schedule, the very first thing the CO (or the commander of the carrier strike group) does is get onto the general announcing circuit and tell everyone on board down to the lowest junior enlisted sailor exactly what is happening, why it's necessary, and what they can expect going forward.

The reasons for this are pretty obvious- it keeps everyone on the same page, prevents rumors from spreading that could damage morale, makes everyone feel invested in the ship's mission, allows the various departments to start adjusting their planning to accomplish the new task, etc. etc.

It's really astonishing to me that people (even stupid people like Disney Wars fans) could possibly not understand this. You don't need to have military service to get it. Any type of group enterprise where the leader isn't communicating their intentions to the people who are tasked with actually doing the work is doomed to failure.

 

[Optimus Prime]

Slightly late here but holy shit this could not possibly be more wrong.

In the real life military, senior officers explain their decisions including the rationale behind them to everyone who has to execute those decisions. They do it all the time. It's considered a sign of effective leadership. It's especially important for your immediate subordinates since they're expected to give you feedback on your ideas and they're the ones who will have to execute them, so it's generally a good thing if they're kept in the loop.

If a nuclear aircraft carrier gets re-tasked and has to change the previous deployment schedule, the very first thing the CO (or the commander of the carrier strike group) does is get onto the general announcing circuit and tell everyone on board down to the lowest junior enlisted sailor exactly what is happening, why it's necessary, and what they can expect going forward.

The reasons for this are pretty obvious- it keeps everyone on the same page, prevents rumors from spreading that could damage morale, makes everyone feel invested in the ship's mission, allows the various departments to start adjusting their planning to accomplish the new task, etc. etc.

It's really astonishing to me that people (even stupid people like Disney Wars fans) could possibly not understand this. You don't need to have military service to get it. Any type of group enterprise where the leader isn't communicating their intentions to the people who are tasked with actually doing the work is doomed to failure.

This is partially the reason why Holdo pisses me the fuck off. Nobody can see that shit and think it's rational, for some dumb bitch to randomly take command and her strategy of getting out of that shithole is ligitamately "do nothing". At the time she tells Poe to 'just believe' (which sounds horseshit), she seems completely ignorant of his position within the entire crew - namely, he's the guy everybody will die for and not her. Look at how fast he staged a mutiny!

Plus, the fact everything went to shit sits squarely on her shoulders. Had she actually told her brilliant 'do nothing because x' plan to Poe, then literally the entire movie does not happen.

 

[Ghostse]

Slightly late here but holy shit this could not possibly be more wrong.

In the real life military, senior officers explain their decisions including the rationale behind them to everyone who has to execute those decisions. They do it all the time. It's considered a sign of effective leadership. It's especially important for your immediate subordinates since they're expected to give you feedback on your ideas and they're the ones who will have to execute them, so it's generally a good thing if they're kept in the loop.

If a nuclear aircraft carrier gets re-tasked and has to change the previous deployment schedule, the very first thing the CO (or the commander of the carrier strike group) does is get onto the general announcing circuit and tell everyone on board down to the lowest junior enlisted sailor exactly what is happening, why it's necessary, and what they can expect going forward.

The reasons for this are pretty obvious- it keeps everyone on the same page, prevents rumors from spreading that could damage morale, makes everyone feel invested in the ship's mission, allows the various departments to start adjusting their planning to accomplish the new task, etc. etc.

It's really astonishing to me that people (even stupid people like Disney Wars fans) could possibly not understand this. You don't need to have military service to get it. Any type of group enterprise where the leader isn't communicating their intentions to the people who are tasked with actually doing the work is doomed to failure.

100% agree ont his, want to add another reason why in military hierarchies its very, very important your orders and reasoning are understood by your lower level commanders: Because you might die. and someone might have to take over.
If the entire Pussy-Power Resistance leadership had been wiped out, no one would know there was a plan, let alone how to execute it.


Of course for drama reasons I'm fine with Holdo, or any other fictional commander, playing secret squirrel games. The issue I have with Holdo is, as discussed, her plan didn't NEED to be secret - nothing was gained. Hell, given the size of the Resistance fleet, if you were worried your comms were tapped you could have just sent runners to deliver the message to the captains. She also kept it secret when there were very serious reasons TO communicate it AKA stopping a mutiny.

 

[neverendingmidi]

100% agree ont his, want to add another reason why in military hierarchies its very, very important your orders and reasoning are understood by your lower level commanders: Because you might die. and someone might have to take over.
If the entire Pussy-Power Resistance leadership had been wiped out, no one would know there was a plan, let alone how to execute it.


Of course for drama reasons I'm fine with Holdo, or any other fictional commander, playing secret squirrel games. The issue I have with Holdo is, as discussed, her plan didn't NEED to be secret - nothing was gained. Hell, given the size of the Resistance fleet, if you were worried your comms were tapped you could have just sent runners to deliver the message to the captains. She also kept it secret when there were very serious reasons TO communicate it AKA stopping a mutiny.

If they had made Holdo a secret FO plant in the Resistance, would anything in her actions (save the suicide run) need to change? This is why she sucks.

 

[verissimus]

And yet, A Military Religious Organization that kidnaps children in order to make them into child "Peacekeepers" is just fine morally according to the setting.


No, no we can't because the Republic has been such an entrenched power for thousands of years that we have no idea what actual laws they have. The Old Republic did after all send people with Mind Control powers into peace talks with The Trade Federation.

When did the Jedi ever kidnap any child?

 

[Creep3r]

kidnaps children in order to make them into child "Peacekeepers" is just fine morally according to the setting.

When did the Jedi ever kidnap any child?

Only one instance of Jedi Council-approved "kidnapping" comes to mind. The Baby Ludi case.

"The Jedi done kidnapped mah baby after I left her in that there ol' ditch while I bought some booze went to get help durin' a quake." - Concerned mother of "kidnapped" Baby Ludi

"Please understand. We didn't kidnap her. We saved her. I swear! ... Also if that dumb bitch gets the kid back, then the kid could literally force-choke her mother while she sleeps." - Jedi Master Trebor

In all seriousness though and for context, the above is just a parody of a short story/article from both old canon and Disney canon where a jedi saved a baby after an earthquake and assumed her parents were dead after they could not be found and so took her in to the Order. But then her real parents turned up much later demanding their kid be returned despite that the kid was now already taught how to connect to the Force and could therefore grow up to be dangerous if left unchecked, which led to a huge anti-jedi sentiment which gave Palpatine a hard-on.

But to be fair, jedi were only allowed to take a kid if it was an orphan. Otherwise, modern Jedi did always ask permission from parents (they would even take in Force-sensitive teens if they were orphans or had no strong relationship ties) and they had the freedom to say 'no'. But Obi-Wan once did get into a slap fight with a corrupt jedi who was kidnapping kids to forcefully train them into the Order, showing that some jedi would kidnap kids for their own twisted views or to raise their own status within the Order (which was honestly becoming more political and bureaucratic than religious and spiritual). Also only reason they even preferred to use babies and toddlers in the first place is because they were less likely to form any strong emotional bonds with anyone, which was the main reason Anakin got rejected, having already become too emotionally attached to his mommy. There's other things that could be said, but I'd rather just leave it off there and post this instead:

 

[Honka Honka Burning Love]

When did the Jedi ever kidnap any child?

How many of the Children training in Attack of the Clones were there? Because I tell you what if the Religious Order that the Republic sucks off at every point shows up at a parents house saying "Oh hey we need to take your kid away because they got the Force, say goodbye you don't ever get to see your child again." they aren't exactly going to argue.

That is one of the reasons I soured on the setting before Soy Wars started coming out, the entire thing is a gigantic dick measuring contest between two sets of assholes.