Death Stranding - Hideous Kojumbo does it again

The problem with this is that 505 is a publisher of this game too. We might not know the full details of the deal, if its just distribution rights or anything, but it is safe to assume that since 505 partially funded games like MN9 and Bloodstained, it is safe to assume that 505 has some controlling stake too compared to just publishing rights like Raw Danger.

Honestly considering how 505 games is just handling the PC port, I doubt they had that much say. Also 505 is extremely incompetent on how they function as a publisher half the time. This is Kojima in his truest form, much like Lucas was during the prequels.
 
20 hours in and then some. Starting on the mountains but gonna go back and take my time and complete some more tasks before continuing.

Reading through all the comments I avoided before playing and it makes me glad I went in with zero expections and mostly blind beyond the trailers shown because holy hissy fit some of you are throwing. No idea what was expected, but funny enough once the game gets going it feels like MGSV part 3, so it's confusing what the issue is other than people expecting instant gratification from what little gunplay was shown in the trailers rather than a slow burn game that wants you to explore your options.

Only nitpicking I have is BT's could of been implemented better and the opening story bits are clunky and worried me initially but otherwise in a world of annual releases of the same shit, rereleases, remakes, I'm happy this even exists.
In a world where Kojima fanboys are giving this game a 10/10, sometimes I enjoy people who straight out say this is a 6/10 or 7/10 game. I think it's unfair to say that the criticisms of this game amount to instant gratification.
 
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I love it when I press the PS4 face button and Sam calls out, there's a statement being made about human need for recognition.
Koji just slips that autism in like an eggplant in the DMs
 
I haven't been following this but all the bad reviews coming out have just made me more curious.

How bad can it be when it's the sequel to Yoshi's Island apparently?
 
I haven't been following this but all the bad reviews coming out have just made me more curious.

How bad can it be when it's the sequel to Yoshi's Island apparently?
hey, that;s pretty good
 
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Just to clear up a possible misunderstanding, this isn't an apologia for Kojima so much as a more general blanket statement that happens to involve him as an example. I'm neutral towards him, if anything. For the purposes of this discussion, let's operate under the assumption that he's a complete hack who doesn't know his head from his ass.

It can go either way. Being a slave to one's own whims is no more or less deleterious to the overall creative process than being a slave to commercial and/or social/political imperatives. If self-indulgence is masturbatory, servility to commercial demands can just as easily be called prostitutional. One has to pick one's poison, so to speak, and I'm in favor of encouraging the choice either way rather than denying it. The consequences will be whatever they'll be, and that's fine too.

Existence within the commercial space of art and entertainment industries is more about politicking, nepotism, and marketing savvy than the sort of meritocracy you imagine it to be, which hasn't really existed since the 70s or thereabouts. Maybe the early 00s if we're being extremely generous. On the topic of respect, on the contrary, I don't think any artist deserves to be respected, in fact, most people should spit upon most artists by default. It's the artist's lot in life to be spat upon and denigrated, whether they deserve it or not (they usually do regardless of what kind of work they produce). You wouldn't respect a masturbator and you wouldn't respect a prostitute, same goes for both underground and mainstream artists. To be an artist (which I have to reitirate can be a shitty one or a great one in this context) is to be a sinner, regardless of how successful, well-made, or socially acceptable one's art is.

On a side note, Vonnegut's writing is actually fairly tame, even somewhat conventional and bland if you dig further than the cutesy, cartoonish, aspects of it.

When it comes to big-budget, highly commercial productions, the irony of your consumer-oriented take here is that's where it's easiest for hacks to prosper and even run roughshod over consumers in spite of all the oversight you'd assume should go into anything that costs so much money to produce and market. Taking Kojima as an example, the market has decided that his name and the prima donna attitude you hate so much, which his name is synonymous with, is a hot commodity at this point in his career. By your logic the commercial space itself has rewarded him for being a hack and he gave the space itself what it wanted. Is this the beginning of his downfall? Maybe, maybe not, it doesn't matter to me either way, but the fact of the matter is that a man who you consider to be a talentless hack fraud who writes on a middle school level was given millions of dollars to jerk off with by the very commercial space you hold in such high esteem.

I think the real issue here is in the disconnect between commercial viability, market demand, and audience reactions. If recent years should've taught us anything, it's that this isn't a direct or instantaneous pipeline and that all sorts of things that are bemoaned will continue to be made for years on end regardless of consumer reactions so long as there's a vested interest in maintaining the status quo that caused those negative reactions. Sure, there's a breaking point to artificially sustained demand but by the time it's reached you'll have had at least 5 years of shit shoveled down your throat by the market that was ostensibly supposed to cater to your demands.

I don't see it as an issue of ego vs humility or even art vs commerce because all of those things can, have, and will be subverted to suit whatever purpose whoever's employing them wants them to. You seem to have romanticized the notion of the audience into something that's immune to having unwanted things shoved down it's throat by market and socio-political forces beyond its control. My take isn't that hacks are good or that leaving everyone to their own devices will necessarily result in anything better, it's more that everyone involved on every level of every creative endeavor, from the artist, to the editor, to the audience, and any middleman inbetween any of them is far more incompetent, fallible, and easily corrupted than you'd like to think they are.

You can pick. Kojima is in an intensely commercial space which the audience has specific demands of you. Kojima created a genre, and for that I give him props. But he's created expectations in a commercial space and has (more or less) followed them. He's always been cheeky about who you're playing or the story, but the gameplay (for the most part) has been solid.

The problem with this time is that he's basically flouted audience expectation by lying to his audience. I don't believe for a second that his vague intentions were not knowing what he was doing. He knew exactly what he was doing. He was already prepared with 'You just don't get it' out of the gate. He can flout expectations and do something different, but in this sort of atmosphere, you don't lie about it.

And of course in a commercial market, hacks are king. Because its the money that matters, not the art. I don't really hold the space in any sort of esteem. It is what it is. I'm talking about the person who spends $60 on it or spends the money. I mean, worse people have been given more money to produce worse shit. The problem I have is that you can see through these people and most of them don't pretend to be some artistic genius. They know exactly what they're doing. Kojima pretends to be above all that, when in reality, he's just the same. I just don't think lying to your audience and manipulating them can be excused so simply as just 'oh, I was doing art'. Like you said, this is a commercial space, where hack frauds are king. My thing is Kojima is pretending he's someone he's not, proceeded to lie to people in order to profit. So to me, he's not a genius he's just another fucking hack relying on old nostalgia to sell copies rather than try to be honest and risk losing an audience.

Because Kojima is quirky Japanese man, he gets away with it in the eyes of some people because he's not like Todd Howard or Bobby Kotick. And of course they are. I'm just tired of bullshit artists and pretend geniuses. But the gaming community and its fandom are fucking nauseating and perpetuate this shit, so I'm not shocked by it.

The Kojima worship has always made me roll my eyes though, because I've always known he was pure garbage (This is an extremely, minority opinion in the gaming community. I am aware). But the outright lying he did with this game and the pass he gets for it when others would have been eviscerated for it pisses me off. And I'm always pissed by good concepts being ruined by people. But really, any concept by Kojima is going to get ruined because all Kojima can write is exposition. He can build a world, but for the life of him does not understand how to use it effectively without bluntly explaining every single thing and emotion.

"Gameplay was still sorting itself out" like we have mastered video games and there is a formula you can follow to make a good video game, which I assume has something to do with loops because loops are all anyone ever talks about these days. You may not remember this, but there was a time when people laughed at the very idea of a stealth game - 'lol let's play a game where you don't shoot people, how fun!'

Anyway I don't disagree with you regarding kojima needing an editor, but that is Sony's failing, not his. They gave him an unlimited budget and no oversight, and when he went into the Sony offices and said 'haha me make big times clazy game wit hirarious ploduct pracement serring sungrasses and cans of poison' they said 'great! Put all this Sony shit in there too' instead of 'knock it off idiot'.

An artist makes art. Nothing else is required of them. They can be crazy, vain, greedy, stupid, vicious - art doesn't just need adversity, it needs you to put everything you have into it, including your fuck ups and personal failings. It is the editor's job to make it palatable.

The thing was that there were stealth games before Kojima, but they were extremely badly implemented, implemented as an after-thought or faced the limitations of technology. Kojima basically codified the genre itself, got around these limitations and made something fun and engaging with a decent story for the time period. Obviously there exists no formula and Kojima took a long time to build this, but it was innovative.

The problem is there's nothing innovative about Death Standing's game play. Its a bad physics walking simulator with a complete narrative disconnect to game play. Kojima hasn't done anything revolutionary here. He's been dishonest with the audience and has made trash and is now whining people don't 'get it'.

Oh, it is Kojima's failing as well. An artist needs to recognize when his project is getting away from him. Excellent creators always have people they go to when they realize this. There's a lot of reasons why creative teams stick together closely, for one because their ideas work well with each other and they're also able to curb each others excesses. All art has excesses and you need someone else to take a look and cut it down. This is almost always the case, with the exception being genius level, legendary artists which are few and far between. Kojima bought into his own genius, didn't think he needed one, and fucked up. He has no one to blame but himself. You can give Sony some flack for not recognizing Kojima needs a handler or an editor, but the responsibility is entirely on Kojima. He needed someone to either reign him in or tell him to be honest and that if he was doing something different, fucking with people would only earn them bad will.

I mean, they're required to not be a fucking hack. I would say that's a basic minimum standard. But besides, yes, editors are needed and editors do create adversity or challenge. They challenge the nature of art, to cut it down and help form it. It might not be adversarial, but its a critical process that's almost always required. A failure to recognize that you need this process is a failure of an artist. Of course, you also need a competent editor as well. Not an idiot. Editors can fuck up works a lot too.

Sony desperately wanted Kojima, so they had already conceded total creative control to him. There's really nothing they can do if they've already handed over control as part of a deal, only make recommendations. They could have recommended Kojima get an editor or a writing team, but he could have easily just rejected them outright or Sony just be too hesitant to do so because they'd put all this money on this fucking idiot's ideas.

You can say Sony takes the blame for giving him total control without expectations, but its ultimately Kojima's entire vision and his responsibility at the end of the day. Sony cannot give an editor to someone they've already given total freedom to. Kojima, however, could have taken one on. It isn't like he worked in a bubble before. Its Kojima's failure to recognize that he needed one, and obviously a continual one, regarding his extremely arrogant statements and suppositions.

To be fair, its also the fault of some of his most ardent supporters in sucking his dick that he bought into his own genius to the level and extent he did.

This might sound exceedingly obscure here but...
Is it possible that Death Stranding might be the video game equivalent of Fernando Pessoa's 'book of disquiet'?

I'd say it's closer to American Psycho (the book, not the movie version) in that an extremely uncharitable take on it would be "A laundry list of brand names that's sometimes broken up by inane edgy rambling." Though it's obviously not a perfect comparison either way. The Book of Disquiet is more of an equivalent to the "my diary, tbh" shitpost that used to be popular on /lit/ a couple of years back.

Far closer to Book of Disquiet. But to be fair, it was published after he was dead. I find it kind of hard to shit on a book published posthumously, because someone else had to look at it and go, 'yeah this is good, lets do it'. Kojima is very much alive and very much has his head up his own ass.

Oh, and American Psycho is nowhere NEAR as bad as some others. Try to get through William Gibson's 'Pattern Recognition'. Every brand is described in aching fucking detail like he was looking through a catalog. I had to stop a third of the way through because I couldn't fucking take the endless brand descriptions down to stitching and color. Yeah, I get that its a future dystopia about brands and the metaphor and all but CAN YOU PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF CHRIST GET TO THE FUCKING POINT. I came to read a sci-fi novel, not a fucking fashion blog, Jesus.
 
You can pick. Kojima is in an intensely commercial space which the audience has specific demands of you. Kojima created a genre, and for that I give him props. But he's created expectations in a commercial space and has (more or less) followed them. He's always been cheeky about who you're playing or the story, but the gameplay (for the most part) has been solid.

The problem with this time is that he's basically flouted audience expectation by lying to his audience. I don't believe for a second that his vague intentions were not knowing what he was doing. He knew exactly what he was doing. He was already prepared with 'You just don't get it' out of the gate. He can flout expectations and do something different, but in this sort of atmosphere, you don't lie about it.

And of course in a commercial market, hacks are king. Because its the money that matters, not the art. I don't really hold the space in any sort of esteem. It is what it is. I'm talking about the person who spends $60 on it or spends the money. I mean, worse people have been given more money to produce worse shit. The problem I have is that you can see through these people and most of them don't pretend to be some artistic genius. They know exactly what they're doing. Kojima pretends to be above all that, when in reality, he's just the same. I just don't think lying to your audience and manipulating them can be excused so simply as just 'oh, I was doing art'. Like you said, this is a commercial space, where hack frauds are king. My thing is Kojima is pretending he's someone he's not, proceeded to lie to people in order to profit. So to me, he's not a genius he's just another fucking hack relying on old nostalgia to sell copies rather than try to be honest and risk losing an audience.

Because Kojima is quirky Japanese man, he gets away with it in the eyes of some people because he's not like Todd Howard or Bobby Kotick. And of course they are. I'm just tired of bullshit artists and pretend geniuses. But the gaming community and its fandom are fucking nauseating and perpetuate this shit, so I'm not shocked by it.

The Kojima worship has always made me roll my eyes though, because I've always known he was pure garbage (This is an extremely, minority opinion in the gaming community. I am aware). But the outright lying he did with this game and the pass he gets for it when others would have been eviscerated for it pisses me off. And I'm always pissed by good concepts being ruined by people. But really, any concept by Kojima is going to get ruined because all Kojima can write is exposition. He can build a world, but for the life of him does not understand how to use it effectively without bluntly explaining every single thing and emotion.
There's no real choice, at least not these days. Unless your intent is deemed socially acceptable or you've been legitimized by your industry/cult following, whether it's in a mainstream capacity or in an underground one (which entails its own set of social and political, rather than primarily artistic, demands) there's no real "choice" when it comes to being in the "commercial space". In other words, the only choice is between making mainstream "product" and making underground "product", which is no choice at all. Both industry gatekeepers and consumers can be rētarded in their own ways, driving away those who'd otherwise make exactly what they claim to want. Neither of them can be trusted nearly as much as you'd like to think they should be. The atmosphere, climate, or what have you itself, which is established by both industries and audiences, is what can go suck a dick.

This is going to sound like heresy to most people here, but there are times when both the audience and the industry, not just one or the other, deserve whatever "mistreatment" they get as a result of the decisions they've collectively made. If you say he lied to the audience, fueling Kojima's prior success with the metal gear games is the collective choice the audience made that led to this outcome, because they trusted him for around two decades when there were multiple red flags in his work that should've told them not to. No one's blameless when things go "wrong" on this scale even if one party bears more of the responsibility than another.

Every artist, whether they're competent or a hack, is a bullshit artist because art is illusory by nature. The goal of art isn't necessarily to create a convincing, well-crafted, or even entertaining illusion so much as one that leaves a lasting impression. Whether it's a positive or negative impression is irrelevant, and in that sense Kojima has succeeded because both those who love and hate what he does for whatever reasons tend to have strong opinions about him. Whether he knows what he's doing or is an incompetent dunce who stumbles into that end result by accident doesn't matter at this point since he's been doing it with more or less the same reactions since at least the 90s (ps1 era).

Part of the reason audiences for anything highly commercial are shat on as much as they are nowadays is that there's always going to be a lack of any genuine collective introspection in any consumer base. Consumption is a mindless activity. Effective marketing is a magic trick meant to take as much conscious thought out of the purchasing process as possible in order to create the ideal consumer for a given product. To be an ideal consumer is to be a mostly brainless walking ATM that'll only refuse access to those who can't get past its security features with marketing tactics. There does come a point when industries eventually get too brazen with their thievery and consumers begin mistrusting them, but again, it takes years rather than weeks or months to achieve any real results with these boycotts when there's enough money flowing around to prop things up. Collectively, consumers of anything are a low IQ mass of drooling rētards. That collective should absolutely never be respected even if it contains individuals who aren't as dumb as the whole within it. Said individuals are few and far between, but every consumer wants to think they're one. Consumers are worthless. Consumers are trash. Consumers are scum. In one way or another, consumers, as a collective, are to blame for all their own grievances with the industries they support just as much as the industries themselves are.
 
You can say Sony takes the blame for giving him total control without expectations, but its ultimately Kojima's entire vision and his responsibility at the end of the day. Sony cannot give an editor to someone they've already given total freedom to. Kojima, however, could have taken one on. It isn't like he worked in a bubble before. Its Kojima's failure to recognize that he needed one, and obviously a continual one, regarding his extremely arrogant statements and suppositions.
It's full of weird dumb shit and product placement, but death stranding is, from all the information available, exactly what kojima wanted to make. How can he have failed if he made the game he wanted to make? Because it wasn't the commercial success tpp was? So what? That's your metric, that's Sony's metric, that may be most people's metric - but I guarantee it isn't kojima's. His metric will be how well it lives up to the insanity in his head, because that's how artists work. And from what I've seen him say, it matches his vision pretty well. And Sony bankrolled it, and gave him full creative control? Haha suck shit Sony. Like @ScamL Likely said, it's not like there weren't clear bloody warning signs of what was going to happen. I can't believe you're defending them, like poor little Sony couldn't tell big bad kojima not to make a game about norman reedus pissing and shitting. Give me a break.

Let's export it to a different setting - do you think youtubers should ensure all their material is safe for viewing by anyone and everyone, no matter what? Because that's what you are advocating for here.
 
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It's full of weird dumb shit and product placement, but death stranding is, from all the information available, exactly what kojima wanted to make. How can he have failed if he made the game he wanted to make? Because it wasn't the commercial success tpp was? So what? That's your metric, that's Sony's metric, that may be most people's metric - but I guarantee it isn't kojima's. His metric will be how well it lives up to the insanity in his head, because that's how artists work. And from what I've seen him say, it matches his vision pretty well. And Sony bankrolled it, and gave him full creative control? Haha suck shit Sony. Like @ScamL Likely said, it's not like there weren't clear bloody warning signs of what was going to happen. I can't believe you're defending them, like poor little Sony couldn't tell big bad kojima not to make a game about norman reedus pissing and shitting. Give me a break.

Let's export it to a different setting - do you think youtubers should ensure all their material is safe for viewing by anyone and everyone, no matter what? Because that's what you are advocating for here.

That's like asking if Homer failed when he designed his car on the Simpsons. No shit he failed. If the expectations are, "Well, its what I wanted to make." Then you never fail. "Oh, well, I just wanted to be lazy and copy paste something from wikipedia. Why did you fail me? Its what I wanted to make." Reality doesn't work like that. "Its his vision." Is not a defense for art. There are some things that are objective failures.

Death Standing fails as a narrative, it fails as a game and it fails as a work of art. It is overly pretentious, bloated with excessive cutscenes that are just exposition, dialogue that is just fucking abysmal ("I'm Princess Beach", "I'm FRAGILE, but I'm not fragile". Like please, this shit is objectively bad. This isn't just misunderstanding the English language, its misunderstanding basic writing conventions on dialogue). Again, there is objectively bad storytelling in this game. There is objectively bad dialogue, in this game. There is objectively bad gameplay, in this game. People may like it or forgive it or overlook it, but it is objectively a failure on his part.

Its why you need analysis, because you don't get to determine if your vision succeeded. It didn't. Whatever he tried to make was a failed, muddled mess. Just because you're an artist doesn't excuse whatever you make as your 'vision'. Visions fail all the time. You don't get to go, "Yeah, this is total dogshit, but its what I wanted so I succeeded." Nigger, no. I don't buy the line everything is subjective, especially from pretentious cunts and especially from art.

I'm not defending Sony. Why would I ever do that? Just because I'm tearing Kojima a new asshole doesn't mean I'm defending them. Nor is that what I'm advocating.

Its like I'm saying a gaming Youtuber who has always made gaming videos and walk-throughs put out a KickStarter for a mysterious new video guide and it would be 'unique' and 'innovative' and took money from people who always expected his current content. Then it turns out a video of him knitting while on a toilet while Flash Games play in the background talking about different knitting techniques.
 
"Its his vision." Is not a defense for art.
Yes it is, it's the only defense. This is going to sound like a cop out but the fact you don't understand that says you don't get art. Some people just don't - I'd argue around half of the planet don't, but you are putting up restrictions that just can't exist for artists to make art. Art is the expression of the artist. Yes that means they get away with calling literal shit art. Yes it means they can get caught in a self destructive cycle of making shit, defending said shit and in defending the shit getting inspired to make more shit that everyone hates. And it means Death stranding is art, despite entirely failing as a video game.
 
Yes it is, it's the only defense. This is going to sound like a cop out but the fact you don't understand that says you don't get art. Some people just don't - I'd argue around half of the planet don't, but you are putting up restrictions that just can't exist for artists to make art. Art is the expression of the artist. Yes that means they get away with calling literal shit art. Yes it means they can get caught in a self destructive cycle of making shit, defending said shit and in defending the shit getting inspired to make more shit that everyone hates. And it means Death stranding is art, despite entirely failing as a video game.

I get art plenty. The simple fact is that "Its my vision" is a bullshit defense that doesn't work for anything else excepting art. Art isn't the special snowflake discipline. It wants to be, it wants a pass for mediocrity, for failure, but I'm sorry, it doesn't get one. There are objective standards. To pretend otherwise is patently idiotic.

The whole post-modernist view that 'everything is art' and 'its what the artist intended so its ok' is justification of modern art's own mediocrity and failure. And the massive void of talent that's around, which allows hacks to dominate. You can fail utterly at expressing yourself. You can fail utterly at your vision. If you fail to properly communicate it, its obviously not what you intended, no matter how much you try and justify it. I'm not going to give one profession a pass because it thinks itself free of it.

Ultimate freedom of creativity and expression is not a license for whatever you do to be just, valid and good. Artists get that massive leeway and want to be free from failure when they massively fuck up. Sorry, no. You don't get to have your cake and eat it too. You want ultimate freedom of expression, you have to take responsibility when you crater into the ground.

Art isn't an intrinsic good, ever. Art fails and art is bad and it is like this all the time. Death Standing, as Kojima's vision, is a failure. He has failed to communicate it properly. He has failed to express himself properly. Its art, but its bad art that goes in the bargain bin. He can say whatever he wants in his dumbfuck head, stick his head up his ass, whatever. His opinion is moot. He was allowed vast creative freedom and he failed. Objectively. He created bad art. He doesn't get to turn around and say, 'You don't get it.' I don't give a fuck if it 'worked for him'. He didn't do this for charity. He did this to get paid. I'd still say it failed if he did it for free, but I would be a lot more forgiving. Once you start asking for money, that equation changes very fucking quick. Its no longer 'just for you'. If I write fiction and its terrible but free, I can justify it and say 'You know, I just wanted to write this for me.' Once I start writing and expect to be paid for it, you are no longer doing it for yourself. The justifications you can make to yourself and for your art narrow immensely. Because previously I was doing it for my own self-expression and not expecting compensation. I can take donations and offer it for free with still little expectation. But once you start asking for money, you are no longer doing this for yourself. Hell, once you put it out there, this defense is going to falter. I still think the defense is dogshit no matter how you cut it. There's objective good and objective bad. You're making excuses for producing something terrible at the end of the day, for profit or for yourself.

Oh, I get it. You just failed at what you were trying to do and lied to your audience while doing it. So not only did you fuck up, you lied to the people while you were fucking up. In no other profession on Earth does that get a fucking pass. I'm not giving art an exception for it. Everything is a human endeavor. And part of being human is failure. Art doesn't get to be separate from failing just because its 'emotion' or 'expression'. Just like an essay fails, a drug fails to work, art fails at what it is trying to do. Kojima has not only failed, he lied while doing it. That's inexcusable.
 
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That's like asking if Homer failed when he designed his car on the Simpsons. No shit he failed. If the expectations are, "Well, its what I wanted to make." Then you never fail. "Oh, well, I just wanted to be lazy and copy paste something from wikipedia. Why did you fail me? Its what I wanted to make." Reality doesn't work like that. "Its his vision." Is not a defense for art. There are some things that are objective failures.

Death Standing fails as a narrative, it fails as a game and it fails as a work of art. It is overly pretentious, bloated with excessive cutscenes that are just exposition, dialogue that is just fucking abysmal ("I'm Princess Beach", "I'm FRAGILE, but I'm not fragile". Like please, this shit is objectively bad. This isn't just misunderstanding the English language, its misunderstanding basic writing conventions on dialogue). Again, there is objectively bad storytelling in this game. There is objectively bad dialogue, in this game. There is objectively bad gameplay, in this game. People may like it or forgive it or overlook it, but it is objectively a failure on his part.
Everytime someone pulls out the objectivity card concerning art or media I feel as though they mean "subjective, but it's accepted as a virtue by society so it's an objective fact" when in reality that's the furthest thing from objective. If objectivity is based on societal opinions and methods then it can't be objective, it would be opinion one that's inherently subjective and fluid. our society could easily (hell maybe it has) accept mediocrity as a satisfying method to deliver a story. So trying to define something as objectively good seems like a waste when it changes with the times or based on the culture receiving it. Because there is no one true objective good just extrapolations of what we value.

This is especially true when you try to quantify the success of the artistic endeavor. It's why people pour tons of money into artists. The art takes on the value of what people pay for it. Which you could argue is an objective measure of success in our world. So yeah it's a cop-out, but it's also society's fault for championing money as the metric rather than virtues of storytelling or composition.

That being said i don't even like the game that much lol, but in terms of objectivity it could be called a success. And Kojima is a genius for once again separating me from the money I could've used to get a nice steak dinner.
 
Everytime someone pulls out the objectivity card concerning art or media I feel as though they mean "subjective, but it's accepted as a virtue by society so it's an objective fact" when in reality that's the furthest thing from objective. If objectivity is based on societal opinions and methods then it can't be objective, it would be opinion one that's inherently subjective and fluid. our society could easily (hell maybe it has) accept mediocrity as a satisfying method to deliver a story. So trying to define something as objectively good seems like a waste when it changes with the times or based on the culture receiving it. Because there is no one true objective good just extrapolations of what we value.

This is especially true when you try to quantify the success of the artistic endeavor. It's why people pour tons of money into artists. The art takes on the value of what people pay for it. Which you could argue is an objective measure of success in our world. So yeah it's a cop-out, but it's also society's fault for championing money as the metric rather than virtues of storytelling or composition.

That being said i don't even like the game that much lol, but in terms of objectivity it could be called a success. And Kojima is a genius for once again separating me from the money I could've used to get a nice steak dinner.

There are actual objective standards. Not societally, but by what follows logically and deductively. You can follow objective conventions and still fail, but it's more likely you will fail less hard than if you ignored them. They're standards for a reason, because they more often than not produce good art. This is over all cultures and over all society.

For example, there are objective standards of beauty. Symmetry is an objective standard of beauty, not only just defined by society but by nature itself. Symmetry is inherent down to the quantum level and nature loves it. Part of beauty is symmetry and there's no going around it. Can you have beauty without symmetry? Yes, but it is far harder to accomplish. Certain math equations are actually objectively beautiful by what they produce by nature and plants (see the fractal equations for which plants bloom or the golden ratio). These are objective standards. Obviously literature is a bit harder but still, symmetrical stories flow better and are generally better than asymmetrical narratives or disjointed works. So there are objective standards that go beyond society into the natural world itself.

The thing is you can flout convention or follow it. The point is, at the end of the day, does it accomplish what you want? Do you use symmetry and asymmetry with competence to evoke what you want to? Do you use harmony and disharmony properly? Is your narrative consistent thematically with the devices you want and use? These are objective questions we can ask. Of course there's always the fact the idea was garbage. But bad stories have been risen to brilliance for the tools used to express them. The same for good ones, gone to utter shit because of misuse of devices.

We can make objective conclusions based on these things. Sometimes no matter what an idea, story or piece of art will just simply be mediocre. No matter the brilliance of the artist. Sometimes that's just inherent in the work. If something, despite everything being done right and the brilliance of the artist, is mediocre, it's very difficult to say objectively whether it failed or not.

If the idea itself was mediocre on its face and nothing could elevate it, you could argue either way. But I feel if an idea is naturally mediocre and goes as high as possible, it's a success. Because it could have gone horribly wrong. That's where subjectivity comes in. Because if something is just always going to be meh no matter what, it's a lot harder to say its objectively good or bad. Or if it failed at its vision.

Ita different if an idea has potential and can rise above mediocre but either fails or hits that level. Then we can analyze why it failed and critically think through the matter. We look at why things are great and why things aren't, why stories work and others don't. It's like an autopsy. We go in and dissect over and over again. We go beyond one era and look at works as a whole. We go beyond culture and beyond society.

Yes, all too often you are right, people use current societal standards to define objectivity in art. This is a mistake. There are, however, objective constants that make things work in all eras and cultures. That's why we know showing and not telling works far better than blatant exposition. Why there's a way works flow consistently through time. We've dissected and analyzed thousands upon thousands of creative endeavors and learned from successes and failures. Not just financially, but works that last despite how archaic they may be and are referenced constantly.

So yes, I believe there is definitely a way to define things and art objectively, even things that defy conventional wisdom or ideas. And someone out there is always going to like terrible shit no matter what.
 
You can pick. Kojima is in an intensely commercial space which the audience has specific demands of you. Kojima created a genre, and for that I give him props. But he's created expectations in a commercial space and has (more or less) followed them. He's always been cheeky about who you're playing or the story, but the gameplay (for the most part) has been solid.

The problem with this time is that he's basically flouted audience expectation by lying to his audience. I don't believe for a second that his vague intentions were not knowing what he was doing. He knew exactly what he was doing. He was already prepared with 'You just don't get it' out of the gate. He can flout expectations and do something different, but in this sort of atmosphere, you don't lie about it.

And of course in a commercial market, hacks are king. Because its the money that matters, not the art. I don't really hold the space in any sort of esteem. It is what it is. I'm talking about the person who spends $60 on it or spends the money. I mean, worse people have been given more money to produce worse shit. The problem I have is that you can see through these people and most of them don't pretend to be some artistic genius. They know exactly what they're doing. Kojima pretends to be above all that, when in reality, he's just the same. I just don't think lying to your audience and manipulating them can be excused so simply as just 'oh, I was doing art'. Like you said, this is a commercial space, where hack frauds are king. My thing is Kojima is pretending he's someone he's not, proceeded to lie to people in order to profit. So to me, he's not a genius he's just another fucking hack relying on old nostalgia to sell copies rather than try to be honest and risk losing an audience.

Because Kojima is quirky Japanese man, he gets away with it in the eyes of some people because he's not like Todd Howard or Bobby Kotick. And of course they are. I'm just tired of bullshit artists and pretend geniuses. But the gaming community and its fandom are fucking nauseating and perpetuate this shit, so I'm not shocked by it.

The Kojima worship has always made me roll my eyes though, because I've always known he was pure garbage (This is an extremely, minority opinion in the gaming community. I am aware). But the outright lying he did with this game and the pass he gets for it when others would have been eviscerated for it pisses me off. And I'm always pissed by good concepts being ruined by people. But really, any concept by Kojima is going to get ruined because all Kojima can write is exposition. He can build a world, but for the life of him does not understand how to use it effectively without bluntly explaining every single thing and emotion.



The thing was that there were stealth games before Kojima, but they were extremely badly implemented, implemented as an after-thought or faced the limitations of technology. Kojima basically codified the genre itself, got around these limitations and made something fun and engaging with a decent story for the time period. Obviously there exists no formula and Kojima took a long time to build this, but it was innovative.

The problem is there's nothing innovative about Death Standing's game play. Its a bad physics walking simulator with a complete narrative disconnect to game play. Kojima hasn't done anything revolutionary here. He's been dishonest with the audience and has made trash and is now whining people don't 'get it'.

Oh, it is Kojima's failing as well. An artist needs to recognize when his project is getting away from him. Excellent creators always have people they go to when they realize this. There's a lot of reasons why creative teams stick together closely, for one because their ideas work well with each other and they're also able to curb each others excesses. All art has excesses and you need someone else to take a look and cut it down. This is almost always the case, with the exception being genius level, legendary artists which are few and far between. Kojima bought into his own genius, didn't think he needed one, and fucked up. He has no one to blame but himself. You can give Sony some flack for not recognizing Kojima needs a handler or an editor, but the responsibility is entirely on Kojima. He needed someone to either reign him in or tell him to be honest and that if he was doing something different, fucking with people would only earn them bad will.

I mean, they're required to not be a fucking hack. I would say that's a basic minimum standard. But besides, yes, editors are needed and editors do create adversity or challenge. They challenge the nature of art, to cut it down and help form it. It might not be adversarial, but its a critical process that's almost always required. A failure to recognize that you need this process is a failure of an artist. Of course, you also need a competent editor as well. Not an idiot. Editors can fuck up works a lot too.

Sony desperately wanted Kojima, so they had already conceded total creative control to him. There's really nothing they can do if they've already handed over control as part of a deal, only make recommendations. They could have recommended Kojima get an editor or a writing team, but he could have easily just rejected them outright or Sony just be too hesitant to do so because they'd put all this money on this fucking idiot's ideas.

You can say Sony takes the blame for giving him total control without expectations, but its ultimately Kojima's entire vision and his responsibility at the end of the day. Sony cannot give an editor to someone they've already given total freedom to. Kojima, however, could have taken one on. It isn't like he worked in a bubble before. Its Kojima's failure to recognize that he needed one, and obviously a continual one, regarding his extremely arrogant statements and suppositions.

To be fair, its also the fault of some of his most ardent supporters in sucking his dick that he bought into his own genius to the level and extent he did.





Far closer to Book of Disquiet. But to be fair, it was published after he was dead. I find it kind of hard to shit on a book published posthumously, because someone else had to look at it and go, 'yeah this is good, lets do it'. Kojima is very much alive and very much has his head up his own ass.

Oh, and American Psycho is nowhere NEAR as bad as some others. Try to get through William Gibson's 'Pattern Recognition'. Every brand is described in aching fucking detail like he was looking through a catalog. I had to stop a third of the way through because I couldn't fucking take the endless brand descriptions down to stitching and color. Yeah, I get that its a future dystopia about brands and the metaphor and all but CAN YOU PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF CHRIST GET TO THE FUCKING POINT. I came to read a sci-fi novel, not a fucking fashion blog, Jesus.
Gibson's weird obsession with fashion in that novel was boomer-tier 'how do you do, fellow kids' stuff. I don't mind his novels but they kind of all become background noise after a while.
Also, kind of feels like he's like Kojima in the way he gets lionised as a true artist.
 
There are actual objective standards. Not societally, but by what follows logically and deductively. You can follow objective conventions and still fail, but it's more likely you will fail less hard than if you ignored them. They're standards for a reason, because they more often than not produce good art. This is over all cultures and over all society.

For example, there are objective standards of beauty. Symmetry is an objective standard of beauty, not only just defined by society but by nature itself. Symmetry is inherent down to the quantum level and nature loves it. Part of beauty is symmetry and there's no going around it. Can you have beauty without symmetry? Yes, but it is far harder to accomplish. Certain math equations are actually objectively beautiful by what they produce by nature and plants (see the fractal equations for which plants bloom or the golden ratio). These are objective standards. Obviously literature is a bit harder but still, symmetrical stories flow better and are generally better than asymmetrical narratives or disjointed works. So there are objective standards that go beyond society into the natural world itself.

The thing is you can flout convention or follow it. The point is, at the end of the day, does it accomplish what you want? Do you use symmetry and asymmetry with competence to evoke what you want to? Do you use harmony and disharmony properly? Is your narrative consistent thematically with the devices you want and use? These are objective questions we can ask. Of course there's always the fact the idea was garbage. But bad stories have been risen to brilliance for the tools used to express them. The same for good ones, gone to utter shit because of misuse of devices.

We can make objective conclusions based on these things. Sometimes no matter what an idea, story or piece of art will just simply be mediocre. No matter the brilliance of the artist. Sometimes that's just inherent in the work. If something, despite everything being done right and the brilliance of the artist, is mediocre, it's very difficult to say objectively whether it failed or not.

If the idea itself was mediocre on its face and nothing could elevate it, you could argue either way. But I feel if an idea is naturally mediocre and goes as high as possible, it's a success. Because it could have gone horribly wrong. That's where subjectivity comes in. Because if something is just always going to be meh no matter what, it's a lot harder to say its objectively good or bad. Or if it failed at its vision.

Ita different if an idea has potential and can rise above mediocre but either fails or hits that level. Then we can analyze why it failed and critically think through the matter. We look at why things are great and why things aren't, why stories work and others don't. It's like an autopsy. We go in and dissect over and over again. We go beyond one era and look at works as a whole. We go beyond culture and beyond society.

Yes, all too often you are right, people use current societal standards to define objectivity in art. This is a mistake. There are, however, objective constants that make things work in all eras and cultures. That's why we know showing and not telling works far better than blatant exposition. Why there's a way works flow consistently through time. We've dissected and analyzed thousands upon thousands of creative endeavors and learned from successes and failures. Not just financially, but works that last despite how archaic they may be and are referenced constantly.

So yes, I believe there is definitely a way to define things and art objectively, even things that defy conventional wisdom or ideas. And someone out there is always going to like terrible shit no matter what.
Ultimately this is why I like reading your posts. You always manage to get me thinking. I do believe you've delivered on what I felt was missing from your argument. Humans love the aspect of symmetry and that is an underlying fact of life in many respects. It would explain the prevalence of the monomyth which is best represented as an unbroken circle of trial and rebirth. And when people shirk this method it can end up paying off as a happy accident or absolutely tank your story.

Now do i think that Death Stranding qualifies as a happy accident that pays off by disregarding convention? No, definitely not in the story department. There's too much hackneyed dialogue and while the scenes are acted well enough, much of the story isn't delivered via gameplay or visually. I wanted to wait till the end, but you were right on the money stating Kojima uses exposition as a crutch far too much in a visual player-driven medium.

Nearly every cutscene is just Reedus in a room awkwardly standing around with someone speaking while Kojima rattles off various half-baked metaphors, sometimes even coming out and directly stating the metaphor for the player (crazy that the thing which was a stick turned out to be a rope in the end :D). Because it's not like this is the same medium that had Shadow of the Colossus which contained no spoken dialogue.

It comes off as very insecure. His methods would fit far better in a book where he could list off every 'nuance' of his story and world-building, but on a video game level it feels very limited. This creates a disconnect where the player is told we're making a difference, but we don't see or feel it. Except for being able to equip more shit and piss grenades of course.
 
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A thing being art or not art has no bearing on whether or not it's quality. The two things are completely unrelated. For example, I'm no fan of old oil paintings where someone centuries ago managed to photorealistically portray a field or some random naked woman, but I can still acknowledge that they're of immense quality and required massive talent. And I can look at a sculpture where someone glued some tires together and threw red paint on them and can agree that it is an artistic endeavor, but that doesn't change the fact that it's shit that any idiot could do. A thing being good or bad has no impact on whether the thing is art, and a thing being unquestionably art doesn't excuse piss poor craftsmanship. I'm sure more than a few bad artists have tried some bullshit like, "Oh, it's supposed to look like garbage and fall apart after a week, that's the experience...", but that excuse doesn't hold up if the people viewing the art are just annoyed and fuck off in a huff. Art that doesn't reach the viewer is a failure any way you cut it.
 
I get art plenty. The simple fact is that "Its my vision" is a bullshit defense that doesn't work for anything else excepting art. Art isn't the special snowflake discipline. It wants to be, it wants a pass for mediocrity, for failure, but I'm sorry, it doesn't get one. There are objective standards. To pretend otherwise is patently idiotic.

The whole post-modernist view that 'everything is art' and 'its what the artist intended so its ok' is justification of modern art's own mediocrity and failure. And the massive void of talent that's around, which allows hacks to dominate. You can fail utterly at expressing yourself. You can fail utterly at your vision. If you fail to properly communicate it, its obviously not what you intended, no matter how much you try and justify it. I'm not going to give one profession a pass because it thinks itself free of it.

Ultimate freedom of creativity and expression is not a license for whatever you do to be just, valid and good. Artists get that massive leeway and want to be free from failure when they massively fuck up. Sorry, no. You don't get to have your cake and eat it too. You want ultimate freedom of expression, you have to take responsibility when you crater into the ground.

Art isn't an intrinsic good, ever. Art fails and art is bad and it is like this all the time. Death Standing, as Kojima's vision, is a failure. He has failed to communicate it properly. He has failed to express himself properly. Its art, but its bad art that goes in the bargain bin. He can say whatever he wants in his dumbfuck head, stick his head up his ass, whatever. His opinion is moot. He was allowed vast creative freedom and he failed. Objectively. He created bad art. He doesn't get to turn around and say, 'You don't get it.' I don't give a fuck if it 'worked for him'. He didn't do this for charity. He did this to get paid. I'd still say it failed if he did it for free, but I would be a lot more forgiving. Once you start asking for money, that equation changes very fucking quick. Its no longer 'just for you'. If I write fiction and its terrible but free, I can justify it and say 'You know, I just wanted to write this for me.' Once I start writing and expect to be paid for it, you are no longer doing it for yourself. The justifications you can make to yourself and for your art narrow immensely. Because previously I was doing it for my own self-expression and not expecting compensation. I can take donations and offer it for free with still little expectation. But once you start asking for money, you are no longer doing this for yourself. Hell, once you put it out there, this defense is going to falter. I still think the defense is dogshit no matter how you cut it. There's objective good and objective bad. You're making excuses for producing something terrible at the end of the day, for profit or for yourself.

Oh, I get it. You just failed at what you were trying to do and lied to your audience while doing it. So not only did you fuck up, you lied to the people while you were fucking up. In no other profession on Earth does that get a fucking pass. I'm not giving art an exception for it. Everything is a human endeavor. And part of being human is failure. Art doesn't get to be separate from failing just because its 'emotion' or 'expression'. Just like an essay fails, a drug fails to work, art fails at what it is trying to do. Kojima has not only failed, he lied while doing it. That's inexcusable.
Yeah that's a lot words to say you don't get art. This is not a post modernist perspective, it's the perspective of a person who appreciates art. 'Everything is art' is wrong but art can be anything. Art can even be terrible, I never said it should be exempt from critique. It's just measured by a standard you don't like.
 
Yeah that's a lot words to say you don't get art. This is not a post modernist perspective, it's the perspective of a person who appreciates art. 'Everything is art' is wrong but art can be anything. Art can even be terrible, I never said it should be exempt from critique. It's just measured by a standard you don't like.
I feel like you're both saying nearly the exact same thing, just with less words or more words. Personally, this shit can be said succinctly and without flowery discussions about art: Kojima made a mediocre game. That's fine, it happens.
 
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