Diseased #Comicsgate - The Culture Wars Hit The Funny Books!

[Wise Man]

On the other end though, I did manage to snip some spicy comments from EVS in the chat.
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Not only is he claiming that Dynamite is CG, he's also doubling down on his desire to walk back into the mainstream. See, this is what I mean. He never had the intention to leave. It was about building up his own star power and ego by amassing internet clout like a teenage hoe that's considering to become a thot so he can return to the mainstream with more status than he deserves, but definitely with the status that he "thinks" he deserves.

Basically what he kept accusing Doug of doing.

 

[CapeKnight]

Basically what he kept accusing Doug of doing.

I snipped this because it was hilarious coming out EVS's mouth/finger on keyboard.

Knowing Liam it's probably all of the above. I think it's clear just from watching the stream that he feels some sort of kindred spirit with Sketch, which is why he keeps getting brought onto the show and why Liam takes attacks from Sketch Therapy so personally instead of as symptoms from an unwell man not in control of his actions or thinking. Also that this kinship is based on mutual suffering from mental illness as well as their shared years of ostracization within Comicsgate. Liam is high functioning compared to Sketch on the mean, but when Sketch is cogent he understands that he is crazy whereas Liam does not, and thinks Sketch is a normal person being a dick to him for no reason. None of this is really related to whatever the truth is behind Liam's head injury/aneurysm, if such a thing happened.

Frog, as the unwitting leader of a quasi-religious cult based around expensive comic books and livestreaming and sort of winging it as he goes along, does the conscientious thing and intervenes in Liam's moment of weakness. In a round about way, he indirectly makes his way to the important matter at hand, which is that Liam is building his way to another(?) stroke due to a combination of poor diet, lack of exercise, overwork, paranoiac fantasies that the world is out to destroy him and just plain stress, and that he should stop if all this is detrimental to his health.

I think you have a point here. He might actually have overblown his own story to "I might die at 50" out of a moment of vulnerability.

It's funny that Ethan stepped in and played "daddy". He was egging the stream to go on initially through the chat and commenting how it was entertaining. If Liam hadn't talked about his issue, or made a point, Ethan probably might not have had that same approach. He was shocked that Liam said he doesn't enjoy YouTube after all. Might be actual good quick thinking on his part. But it still doesn't change the fact that Ethan pushes for sales with drama and cultivating a cult, and it took something like Liam's mental breakdown against Sketch to make him realize how his shenanigans could have negatively impacted people.

 

[Newman's Own]

Frog, as the unwitting leader of a quasi-religious cult based around expensive comic books and livestreaming and sort of winging it as he goes along, does the conscientious thing and intervenes in Liam's moment of weakness. In a round about way, he indirectly makes his way to the important matter at hand, which is that Liam is building his way to another(?) stroke due to a combination of poor diet, lack of exercise, overwork, paranoiac fantasies that the world is out to destroy him and just plain stress, and that he should stop if all this is detrimental to his health.

I don't know if Ethan did any of that out of concern for Liam. Ethan's in a tough spot. Liam's show is making problems and drama that is not helping him to say the least. It's keeping the war between Cecil, Malin and WC hot and creating a rift in his fan club that's likely to translate into less frog bucks for the pie man.

But Ethan can't just tell Liam to shut the most successful thing he's ever done down for fear that Liam says no. If he told Liam and Liam said no that would cut into Ethan's power because his power is based on the perception of people like Liam following his lead. Plus it would make Ethan into even more of a hypocrite if he told Liam to cut out the YouTube drama mongering.

But if he concern trolls Liam into giving up the drama that has definitely raised his profile "for his own good" Ethan scores a bloodless win and shuts the drama show down without looking like he's bullying anyone.

 

[Absurdity]

The optics of Waid and Simone being "employees of Comicsgate" is their problem and Dynamite's problem, not Frog's. They're the ones that have spent years telling their fanbases that CG = Nazis after all. They can withdraw their business from Dynamite and push them further towards dependence on CG, shifting the overton window towards Comicsgate being acceptable, or they could ignore it, which has the same effect. Some hardline WC ideologues hate it on the argument that a respected comic book publisher is deciding for themselves which CG people they want to patronize and not a bunch of gay romaboo larpers with no talent in anything but it looks like they're on their way out as it is.

I don't know, could he be looking to try to grab some stability and settle down? He's still with Dynamite after all this mayo hit the fan. Could he be getting a little tired of fielding all the stray hits from his lost boys? For now it looks like he's kinda stuck.

 

[FROG]

I read this stuff and I'm fascinated. It's all wrong, but it's still fun.

To know where I'm coming from, I don't rely upon what other ComicsGaters do. I could be wrong, but it seems to me that my fanbase is pretty loyal. My YouTube shows remain at about 1800 viewers whether I have guests or go solo, and Superchats come in at the same rate as well. Through all of this bullshit, nothing really important has changed.

I feel confident that CYBERFROG 2 is going to make $750K, and I'm pretty sure I can expect at least $500K for the next two.

What other ComicsGaters do only matters to me because I want ComicsGate to still be a hashtag and a movement and a brand while the Direct Market collapses. And I want other creators to succeed and do well because I like most of these people and I like bragging about their success to bother mainstream pros. I don't pay attention to all of the drama, but I check in sometimes. Liam's show is great, but I was surprised to hear him say he hated doing YouTube. Most of the people who hate doing YouTube are terrible at it anyhow. Liam is a good radio host.

DYNAMITE COMICS is ComicsGate neutral, meaning, they'll do business with us. That's great, because they know a lot about publishing, they can help with making product and editing and some of us need that help. I have no desire to go back to the mainstream. There's no money in it. There's hard work and a pittance in salary, believe me, I'm never going back. But at the same time, I don't want to be told that I CAN'T if I want to. Some CGers really want to be in LCS, and it's important that we make that possible. DYNAMITE helps CG and it's fun to frustrate Gail and the others who don't seem to want to share that turf.

Meanwhile, DYNAMITE is making some extra money in lean times by offering variant cover gigs to YouTuber artists with big platforms.

And no, I'm not kicking Cecil to the curb. He'll deal with his customers and War Campaign however he deals with them. He has enough clout to not get pushed around, and enough sense to know when he's wrong and what he's wrong about. He's fair, not stubborn. He's not Smiller or Doug or Edwin.

Anyhow, hit me with those AUTISTIC and DUMB emojis! See you later!

 

[Mister Dongs]

I don't know, could he be looking to try to grab some stability and settle down? He's still with Dynamite after all this mayo hit the fan. Could he be getting a little tired of fielding all the stray hits from his lost boys? For now it looks like he's kinda stuck.

Dynamite's offering to do all the shitwork of things like printing and campaign fulfillment for Frog while he youtubes and draws all day while simultaneously making the likes of Gail Simone and Mark Waid either disavow Dynamite or accept being publicly known for working for a company that enables the Caligula of Comicsgate to fill his coffers while they can do nothing about it. There's literally no downside for him in this. Meanwhile "anti-CG" are running to Waid and Simone with chatlogs from a stream of Liam vs Sketch Therapy with this thinking it's a big slam dunk on Ethan when in reality it's the last thing in the world either of them want to deal with on a public forum.

The only real disagreement with this are foiled gatekeepers in CG and people who have confused the CG business model of "building a platform while running a crowdfund you fulfill yourself" as the be-all end-all of Comicsgate instead of as a stopgap solution whose main virtue was that it could not be cancelled by SJWs.

 

[A nameless trool]

Dynamite's offering to do all the shitwork of things like printing and campaign fulfillment for Frog while he youtubes and draws all day while simultaneously making the likes of Gail Simone and Mark Waid either disavow Dynamite or accept being publicly known for working for a company that enables the Caligula of Comicsgate to fill his coffers while they can do nothing about it. There's literally no downside for him in this. Meanwhile "anti-CG" are running to Waid and Simone with chatlogs from a stream of Liam vs Sketch Therapy with this thinking it's a big slam dunk on Ethan when in reality it's the last thing in the world either of them want to deal with on a public forum.

The only real disagreement with this are foiled gatekeepers in CG and people who have confused the CG business model of "building a platform while running a crowdfund you fulfill yourself" as the be-all end-all of Comicsgate instead of as a stopgap solution whose main virtue was that it could not be cancelled by SJWs.

To be fair, EVS, YBZ and Jon Malin together have $ million+ franchises that a starving direct market wants. They could seriously go into LCS at any time (and they have no excuse not to) but it would cost them a lot of money. They should go from $25+shipping per book to about half of $12 minus the shipping cost to the distributor and the cut of their publisher, so probably $5 a book with not that larger of a fanbase.
For instance, at 7000 backers, Godking would only make $35000 for Zack INCLUDING production costs. If a page is costing him $200 and each comic printed $2 that means that he needs $34000 as production cost - so this actually makes him no money.
This is exactly the problem the "mainstream industry" faces all along. If YBZ or EVS could go into the direct market and gain double or tripple the sales, they still would make less profit, this is why they refuse to go into crowdfunding.
They just make more money out of less sales on an engaged audience.

But, down the line, some Direct market reprints of older comics could bring in extra cash

 

[FROG]

To be fair, EVS, YBZ and Jon Malin together have $ billion+ franchises that a starving direct market wants. They could seriously go into LCS at any time (and they have no excuse not to) but it would cost them a lot of money. They should go from $25+shipping per book to about half of $12 minus the shipping cost to the distributor and the cut of their publisher, so probably $5 a book with not that larger of a fanbase.
For instance, at 7000 backers, Godking would only make $35000 for Zack INCLUDING production costs. If a page is costing him $200 and each comic printed $2 that means that he needs $34000 as production cost - so this actually makes him no money.
This is exactly the problem the "mainstream industry" faces all along. If YBZ or EVS could go into the direct market and gain double or tripple the sales, they still would make less profit, this is why they refuse to go into crowdfunding.
They just make more money out of less sales on an engaged audience.

But, down the line, some Direct market reprints of older comics could bring in extra cash

Exactly this. We've weighed the idea that being in comic shops would be worth losing all of that profit for the sake of reaching more people, and then realized that we're reaching the maximum number of possible buyers now, on the internet. There's no limit to the number of people I can offer CYBERFROG to with a link and a YouTube video. The old model just doesn't make sense any more.

I'm not sure the Direct Market will exist down the line. I think it's likely that it'll implode in three months. And even if it's still around, CYBERFROG: BLOODHONEY is evergreen to new readers. It's like the first HARRY POTTER novel. You need to read it to follow the story that everyone else is talking about. I'll always make it available and in print in some form as I go forward publishing annual or semi-annual CYBERFROG event comics.

 

[cow-wannabe]

This thread seems to be heading towards talking about 'Dimensional Merges' and marrying OCs.

 

[A nameless trool]

Exactly this. We've weighed the idea that being in comic shops would be worth losing all of that profit for the sake of reaching more people, and then realized that we're reaching the maximum number of possible buyers now, on the internet. There's no limit to the number of people I can offer CYBERFROG to with a link and a YouTube video. The old model just doesn't make sense any more.

I'm not sure the Direct Market will exist down the line. I think it's likely that it'll implode in three months. And even if it's still around, CYBERFROG: BLOODHONEY is evergreen to new readers. It's like the first HARRY POTTER novel. You need to read it to follow the story that everyone else is talking about. I'll always make it available and in print in some form as I go forward publishing annual or semi-annual CYBERFROG event comics.

Well, you are overcharging your clients and screwing up international backers. Not sure if this is a sustainable model but you do you.

PS: If I were you, at some point, I would contact Panini for international publications of Cyberfrog. Spanish, German and French translations might do well and reach a larger non-us centered audience. Maybe after Cyberfrog act 1 is complete.

 

[Wise Man]

Too bad, you said Panini and now EVS's thinking about sandwiches.

Me too to be honest.



Yaboi did a video about comic book shops trying to be a "3rd Place" like bars or gyms. That ain't happening until you can buy lunch in one. Cyberfrog 3 should continue to set the trends and include a sandwich. Maybe it could be wrapped around it.

 

[FROG]

Well, you are overcharging your clients and screwing up international backers. Not sure if this is a sustainable model but you do you.

PS: If I were you, at some point, I would contact Panini for international publications of Cyberfrog. Spanish, German and French translations might do well and reach a larger non-us centered audience. Maybe after Cyberfrog act 1 is complete.

Charging for a beautiful 48+ page autographed comic book, with a bonus comic, 5 trading cards and two stickers what it would cost to go to the movies with popcorn isn't overcharging, as it turns out. People are still paying and paying more on the secondary market. It's working pretty well.

Panini has approached me in the past, and sure, when the first four books are a hardcover collection, that seems like the right time to do it.

 

[CapeKnight]

Charging for a beautiful 48+ page autographed comic book, with a bonus comic, 5 trading cards and two stickers what it would cost to go to the movies with popcorn isn't overcharging, as it turns out. People are still paying and paying more on the secondary market. It's working pretty well.

Panini has approached me in the past, and sure, when the first four books are a hardcover collection, that seems like the right time to do it.

You think it's working pretty well. I buy a Jump magazine that has 15-20 stories in it with great art, better stories than you put out, get free limited edition trading cards (cards I can actually use when I go to the arcade btw) depending on the week/month, posters, stickers, files I can keep my papers in, and many many more merch in it. Did I mention they release the Jump magazines weekly? And they have a separate format for monthly releases with another set of different stories? You move at a snail's pace.

Your audience size might look to you like "working pretty well" because you're solely relying on the strength of the dollar compared to other things. I get a Jump magazine for 2-3 bucks. I don't have to pay for shipping because my bookstores already stock them. The only thing I'm missing is an autograph, which is something I don't care for. Collecting comics to flip them is a niche hobby that you're more likely to lose money on than to just simply buy it for the story.

I don't see long term stability in your model.

 

[A nameless trool]

Charging for a beautiful 48+ page autographed comic book, with a bonus comic, 5 trading cards and two stickers what it would cost to go to the movies with popcorn isn't overcharging, as it turns out. People are still paying and paying more on the secondary market. It's working pretty well.

Panini has approached me in the past, and sure, when the first four books are a hardcover collection, that seems like the right time to do it.

For the same ammount of money I can get two GOOD Marvel/DC/Image collections at 100+ pages each, or two beautiful hardcover French albums at 48+ pages each. On time, when COVID is not a thing, through my LCS, supporting a local business. You are short-changing your backers.
I get the collectable nature of your books, but you are doing what the industry is doing, by selling overprized books to collectors through a very limited channel and can barely keep your promises (CFBH third print was supposed to be squarebound and he was to fight the Vespids - neither happened) while selling wannabes a pipe dream that they can be successful by starting a YouTube channel (instead of twitter), buying CG books (instead of Marvel books) and starting their own campaign (instead of kissing Heather Antos' ring as a chance to break into the industry).
And I just love how you and Jon Mallin tell people "Build their own platform" and they bitch about not you selling their shit.

I mean, your artwork was great and I liked the writing and your enthusiasm about the project.
I get why people want these books and the Jae Lee cover on WP is amazing.
But that doesn't change the fact that you are shortchanging your customers.

 

[Elwood P. Dowd]

Charging for a beautiful 48+ page autographed comic book, with a bonus comic, 5 trading cards and two stickers what it would cost to go to the movies with popcorn isn't overcharging, as it turns out.

How much do you think your customers are willing to part with on a monthly/quarterly/annual basis for funny books they finish in half an hour tops and then stick in an envelope? Just curious.

On a personl note: Sorry, but I can't shake a sense CG is now far more about sizzle (YouTube paypigs/"sticking it to the Ess Jay Doobayous,"/Twitter Drama) that steak (getting books out there). Quite possibly a way to make a go of things in the strange world we live in, who knows, but not exactly what CG advertises itself to be.

People are still paying and paying more on the secondary market. It's working pretty well.

There's an active secondary market for these books? I didn't think there were enough physically out there yet for this to make sense.

 

[FROG]

For the same ammount of money I can get two GOOD Marvel/DC/Image collections at 100+ pages each, or two beautiful hardcover French albums at 48+ pages each. On time, when COVID is not a thing, through my LCS, supporting a local business. You are short-changing your backers.
I get the collectable nature of your books, but you are doing what the industry is doing, by selling overprized books to collectors through a very limited channel and can barely keep your promises (CFBH third print was supposed to be squarebound and he was to fight the Vespids - neither happened) while selling wannabes a pipe dream that they can be successful by starting a YouTube channel (instead of twitter), buying CG books (instead of Marvel books) and starting their own campaign (instead of kissing Heather Antos' ring as a chance to break into the industry).
And I just love how you and Jon Mallin tell people "Build their own platform" and they bitch about not you selling their shit.

I mean, your artwork was great and I liked the writing and your enthusiasm about the project.
I get why people want these books and the Jae Lee cover on WP is amazing.
But that doesn't change the fact that you are shortchanging your customers.

He fought RumbleBee for seven pages and won. Then he fought the Vyzpzz for three pages and got his ass kicked. The entire point was that he got shut down quick by the invasion.

I appreciate all of the compliments about my writing, art and enthusiasm, and Jae Lee's covers are awesome.

I don't hear many actual backers saying they got "shortchanged." I hear them saying, "Where can I buy the variants?"

My customers are having fun and are enjoying the crowdfunding experience. CYBERFROG is becoming a brand, everyone knows it. Steve Geppi name-dropped it yesterday on the retailer livestream.

I think it'll keep growing. Hit me with those Optimistic rainbows!

How much do you think your customers are willing to part with on a monthly/quarterly/annual basis for funny books they finish in half an hour tops and then stick in an envelope? Just curious.

On a personl note: Sorry, but I can't shake a sense CG is now far more about sizzle (YouTube paypigs/"sticking it to the Ess Jay Doobayous,"/Twitter Drama) that steak (getting books out there). Quite possibly a way to make a go of things in the strange world we live in, who knows, but not exactly what CG advertises itself to be.



There's an active secondary market for these books? I didn't think there were enough physically out there yet for this to make sense.

I paid $6000 for an issue of FANTASTIC FOUR that I read in fifteen minutes and put in a bag and stuffed into a box.

Our customers will and do pay $25 for the new issue of CYBERFROG.

They will also pay $6 for a shitty new Marvel book.

But they're excited to pay $25 for CYBERFROG, if they read BLOODHONEY and enjoyed it. And many people did.

I want to do one, possibly two books per year. I'll use YouTube to stay connected to those customers in between books.

And yes, there are 20,000 copies of CYBERFROG: BLOODHONEY in existence, and they do very well on eBay. This dude seems to have bought a stack of them at $25 each, and is selling them easily for $45 each. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Cyberfrog-...985519?hash=item523258996f:g:qGwAAOSwAMxehO2l

 

[CapeKnight]

CYBERFROG is becoming a brand, everyone knows it. Steve Geppi name-dropped it yesterday on the retailer livestream.

Who knows what? No one in real life who has interests in normal things knows who you are, nor do they know about your toad book, nor do they fucking care. Steve who? Who?

Any evidence you have for people "interested" in your "brand" is purely anecdotal and cherry picking, in science we call that p-hacking for a confirmation bias. I'm more likely to walk into a kid who will talk to me about My Hero Academia or Black Clover than to ever hear them mention anything outside of the MCU movies.

You're one of many million YouTubers. Everything you sell can be regarded as overpriced merch no one but zealots and paypigs shill out for.

You're a relic of the past. Time to wake up.

 

[FROG]

Who knows what? No one in real life who has interests in normal things knows who you are, nor do they know about your toad book, nor do they fucking care. Steve who? Who?

Any evidence you have for people "interested" in your "brand" is purely anecdotal and cherry picking, in science we call that p-hacking for a confirmation bias. I'm more likely to walk into a kid who will talk to me about My Hero Academia or Black Clover than to ever hear them mention anything outside of the MCU movies.

You're a relic of the past. Time to wake up.

OK, wake me up when I hit $700K on this single comic book I'm selling: https://igg.me/at/OUElNcZhgNI/x/3778633#/

 

[CapeKnight]

OK, wake me up when I hit $700K on this single comic book I'm selling: https://igg.me/at/OUElNcZhgNI/x/3778633#/

Wake me up when money means quality. Or relevancy. No one talks about Captain Marvel or the bad films that made billions of dollars. Besides your fat dumbasses.

 

[FROG]

Wake me up when money means quality. Or relevancy. No one talks about Captain Marvel or the bad films that made billions of dollars. Besides your fat dumbasses.

Yes, but I don't care about your opinion. I care about the opinions of the thousands of people who are giving me money, and I care about that money.

If you're not buying CYBERFROG or thinking about it, you define irrelevancy to me. I just enjoy your crying.