2020 U.S. Presidential Election - Took place November 3, 2020. Former U.S. Vice President Joe Biden assumed office January 20, 2021.

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So since Trump has such big rallies and enthusiasm on his side, why aren't more of these "shy Trump voters" coming out of the woodwork? There's enough solidarity among conservatives that anyone who gets their tires slashed or their house burned down will not be unheard if they make enough noise.

This is simplistic, and doesn't take into account peoples' individual situation. You can be enthusiastic to vote, but not be publicly enthusiastic around your neighbors, co-workers, or anonymous phonecall pollsters.

You can't seriously believe that someone would have the thought process, "they might burn down my house, but if they do, other Trump voters will notice and will call attention to it." No, people just don't want the house burned or the tires slashed or being fired in the first place. Nobody's going to do the risk-assessment and throw caution to the wind like you're suggesting just because Trump has a lot of fans at his rallies.
 
What if they are simply polling X number of people at a time, and the samples favor Dems in terms of just numbers?

Edit: as I've established, I pray to God Almighty every day I am wrong. I want you guys to be right when you say that the journoscum are setting themselves up for another 2016-tier humiliation. But I find it hard to believe that the Left have learned nothing over the last 4 years; at the very least, they know not to get complacent.
It’s weighted, which means they sample random group of people, then adjust it for what they think turnout will actually be. The weighting is the inherent problem in all polling.
I find it hard to believe that they use Obama tier turnouts in the sampling as well, but the media hasn’t exactly been level headed for the last few years.
 
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Let me do a quick knowledge dump on the various potential sources of error in polling

1. Errors in weighting. (GENDER) If a pollster underestimates the share of electorate of males voting, they're definitely underestimating Trump. (EDUCATION) If a pollster underestimates the share of the electorate of non-college people voting, they're probably underestimating Trump, particularly if they're underestimating the amount of non-college whites as a share of the electorate. (GEOGRAPHY) If a pollster underestimates the share of the electorate coming from rural areas and the like. (RACE) If a pollster underestimates the share of whites voting, they're certainly underestimating Trump. Remember that pollsters don't have anyone holding them accountable if they're wrong, so oftentimes they won't care if they're being too urban/nonwhite/female/educated in who they poll.


And let's assume they're weighting the electorate properly, there's still the potential for error because of....

2. Non-Response Bias. The fact that 98% of people aren't even bothering to pick up the phone is going to create issues with polling that even the most honest pollsters will have trouble correcting. Even if a pollster tries to call rural areas, there is the potential that the people in those rural areas more likely to be comfortable talking to pollsters will be the left leaning ones, while the right-leaning ones are more distrustful and hang-up immediately (or hang up before the poll is over). This could lead to pollsters thinking that, say, Biden is doing better in rural areas than Hillary was because the people who actually care enough to respond to pollsters are more left leaning and more media-trusting. Meanwhile it could be that Biden is actually doing worse because all the right-leaning people are not even responding to begin with. And of course, this applies to more than just rural areas - I mentioned rurals simply because I want to emphasize that *even if the polls are being correct in terms of how they weight the different types of voters* - this could still lead to error.

Decades ago, non-response bias was *NOWHERE* near as bad because pretty much everyone picked up the landline phone and candidates like Gerald Ford vs Jimmy Carter weren't controversial to discuss. Now? Not only are people not bothering picking up the phone if a stranger calls because of an abundance of telemarketers/robocalls/general-distrust-of-strangers, but we're in the most polarized era since the Civil War.

now, let's say that a poll weights correctly and that people are actually responding in a way that aligns with the real electorate...there's still a third way that error can manifest....


3. Deceptiveness in those who actually bother responding. There are three main ways this could manifest in a way that underestimates Trump.

First: Trump voters claiming they're "undecided" when they really are decided - on voting for Trump. If you look at some of the 2016 polls in states like Michigan, you can see polls that had results like Hillary: 46% Trump: 40% Third Party:8% Undecideds: 6% (horey shit a 6 point lead, drumpf is finished!). Only for the final result to be Trump: 47.something% Hillary 47.something%. Well, looks like pretty much all the undecideds went to Trump - thing is, were they really 'undecided' to begin with if it was that disproportionate?

Second: Trump voters claiming they're voting for a non-major party candidate. If you look at many 2016 polls, they consistently overestimated the amount of voters that Gary Johnson and Jill Stein would get. Now, some of that was third-party voters genuinely changing their minds at the last minute and going for a candidate "with an actual chance to win." But some of that literally was shy Trump voters claiming that they were voting for Gary Johnson because it's a less controversial thing to admit, socially speaking. This time around, Jo Jorgensen sometimes gets 3-5% in the polls...which is total *bullshit.* She's not even as prominent as Gary Johnson was in 2012, when he got 1% of the vote. Gary Johnson was a well known governor of New Mexico. Jo Jorgensen is more of a nobody, like the candidates the Lolbertarians put up in 2008 and 2004 (can you name them off the top of your head?). I guarantee you that some of those 'Jorgensen supporters' are shy Trump voters.

Third: Trump voters claiming they're voting for Biden. This would have a more significant impact on the margins than the previous two types of deceptiveness.

Let's say that there are 12 voters for Trump and 11 for Biden and 1 for Jorgensen. The real final margin would be Trump+1 over Biden.

EXAMPLE of how the (First) kind of error can manifest: Now let's say that in a poll, it's 8 for Trump, 10 for Biden, 1 for Jorgensen, 5 Undecided. Biden+2 over Trump

4 of those 5 Undecideds could be shy Trump voters, 1 could be a genuine undecided who goes to Biden. --> Actual final result: 12 Trump, 11 Biden, 1 Jorgensen. Poll off in the margin by 3.

Example of how the (Second) kind of error can manifest: Poll says 8 for Trump, 10 for Biden, 5 for Jorgensen (Biden+2) --> 4 Jorgensen 'supporters' go for Trump, 1 Jorgensen supporter decides to vote Biden instead. Actual final result: 12 Trump, 11 Biden, 1 Jorgensen. (Trump+1). Poll off in the margin by 3

Example of how the (Third) kind of error can manifest: Poll says 8 for Trump, 15 for Biden, 1 for Jorgensen (Biden+7 hory shit blomf is finished). --> 4 Biden 'supporters' turn out to be bullshitting and vote for Trump. Actual final result: 12 Trump, 11 Biden, 1 Jorgensen (Trump+1). Poll off in the margin by 8!!!!

So as you can see, this kind of polling error can cause even bigger misses than the first two forms of deceptiveness. Question is - how many people in the polls are Trump supporters claiming to be Biden supporters to fuck with the polls? Well, we're going to have to wait until the election is over to have an idea. But given that many Trump supporters will be hesitant to be honest to a stranger from a media/university polling organization, and may want to fuck with said pollster for amusement, there could be more fake D supporters than in 2016.

Note that in 2016, it seems that the type of error most common was the (First) and (Second). However, given that Jo Jorgensen and Howie Hawkins are much less prominent, I speculate that the same type of Trump voters who lied and said they were voting for Gary Johnson, are more likely to lie and say they're voting for Biden this time around - but they also could be claiming Jorgensen or Undecided or another third party candidate.

Of course, there are ways in which error can lead to Trump being overestimated, but intuitively they're less likely to happen. Biden supporters tend to trust the media and respect the polls a lot more, which means they'd lie to pollsters much less. And there'd be less non-response bias because they'd be more likely to talk to the pollsters for extended periods of time. And some pollsters won't care if they have too many urbans/educateds/nonwhites/women in their polls. So overall, all these sources of error point to Trump outperforming the polling. Question is...by how much?

Well, Trafalgar and Richard Baris both seem to have worked hard about counteracting (1-Weighting) and (2Non-ResponseBias). Their polls point to a close race where Trump is either ahead in the key battlegrounds, or just *very slightly* behind. However, they cannot really fix (3-DeceptivenessInResponse) because after all, they're still strangers to the people they're polling. I've seen too many Jorgensen supporters and undecideds in their polls which leads me to think that even *they* are underestimating Trump and that Trump probably will win the states where he is slightly behind in their polls,

Now, when it comes to pollsters like CNN/NYTIMES-SIENA/CHANGE RESEARCH/QUINNIPIAC/MONMOUTH/etc ? I think they have (1 -Weighting) (2-NonResponseBias) and (3-DeceptivenessInResponse) manifesting in spades. So could they miss the real final result by as much as double digits, such that Trump wins despite being behind by a lot? Absolutely!

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edit: oh and there's a 4th way in which polls can miss the mark. It's voters who are being honest but genuinely change their mind before voting. They can be *genuinely undecided* but come around to supporting Trump. They can also be *genuinely planning on voting for Biden* but change their mind and vote Trump.

I can write more about this later, but this is another thing to keep in mind. I speculate that the way the race is going, this kind of error will benefit Trump. I don't see large numbers of Trump supporters changing their minds at this juncture.

I do see *genuine undecideds* being more likely to vote Trump, because if they're still *genuinely undecided* after nuclear warheads of media negativity, I don't think they'll decide to vote against Trump.

And are there still some soft-Biden supporters who are wavering because they're wondering if he's an old weak silent gen dementia patient who will be controlled by the left and other malignant interests, who may not be able to be Moderate Friendly Uniting (tm) Joe like he was advertised to be? I'm sure there are.
 
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It’s weighted, which means they sample random group of people, then adjust it for what they think turnout will actually be. The weighting is the inherent problem in all polling.

That's part of it. Another part is trying to get a sample in the first place that will match the electorate on Election Day. A certain type of person is more likely or less likely to answer the phone, or wants to give their opinion to a stranger, or they might get too many respondents from a certain area that skews it outside of the "weighting" the pollsters do once the raw data is in. I know they claim to try to be representative in their samples, but you can't force someone to pick up the phone if they don't want to. And I don't believe for a minute that a lot of these outfits are even careful, or even interested in reflecting the mood of electorate.

Modern polling blows. Even someone who wants to do it right will often find it's fiendishly difficult. Even more so with Trump on the ballot.
 
So since Trump has such big rallies and enthusiasm on his side, why aren't more of these "shy Trump voters" coming out of the woodwork? There's enough solidarity among conservatives that anyone who gets their tires slashed or their house burned down will not be unheard if they make enough noise.

Look at Nick Sandmann, the McCloskeys, or Aaron Danielson. GEOTUS stands up for his supporters when the Left does them wrong.
I’m perfectly willing to support Trump on my anonymous accounts and in direct conversation. I don’t particularly care if it gets outed, but I also don’t want to have annoying conversations with friends and family who are acting out right now. This will all fade into history and it’s easier to rebuild a relationship if neither side burns down the bridge.
 
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So since Trump has such big rallies and enthusiasm on his side, why aren't more of these "shy Trump voters" coming out of the woodwork? There's enough solidarity among conservatives that anyone who gets their tires slashed or their house burned down will not be unheard if they make enough noise.
Honest question: are you actually a human or are you an alien or a bot imitating a human?

Because that thought process seems so... artificially unnatural. It's the kind of evaluation of a situation that you would get from a very poorly programmed AI decision tree.

No one thinks, "At least I'll have company in the gallows!" They think, "Let me keep my head down so I don't wind up in the gallows at all."
 
It was hinted by some local source literally an hour or so before his appearance. I have someone there so I can report impressions later about the event, but it wasn't really possible to guess. Where we guessed it might be—a place similar to "The Villages"—was not actually where it ended up taking place. The whole thing was then locked off, reportedly, making it actually impossible to even go there and protest or whatever (in the same way people did, say, when Biden went to Gettysburg).

The event is taking place in Pembroke Pines, which isn't like some small town. Saying "Drive around Pembroke Pines until you find it" is like saying "drive around Eugene, Oregon" or "drive around Providence, Rhode Island." But it didn't matter in the end, because somebody leaked it to a single local source who then sort of reported it.

The reporting on the event beforehand, by the way, was atrocious. It was like every single local article was copy and pasted from a singular circulating memo. The media gets the memo, but the voters are left out in the cold. What a fucking joke of a campaign.

How the fuck is that NOT considered a direct insult?! By anyone?! He's literally going full Marie Antoinette! "Oh yes I will do the rally there but I better not see a single filthy peasant!"
 
Honest question: are you actually a human or are you an alien or a bot imitating a human?

Because that thought process seems so... artificially unnatural. It's the kind of evaluation of a situation that you would get from a very poorly programmed AI decision tree.

No one thinks, "At least I'll have company in the gallows!" They think, "Let me keep my head down so I don't wind up in the gallows at all."
I'm just a massive worry-wart allergic to good news.
 
"So since Trump has such big rallies and enthusiasm on his side, why aren't more of these "shy Trump voters" coming out of the woodwork? There's enough solidarity among conservatives that anyone who gets their tires slashed or their house burned down will not be unheard if they make enough noise."

I've seen this counterargument spouted by online leftists trying to dismiss the Shy Trump Voter hypothesis. It's the kind of argument spouted by people who can't grasp basic set theory.

It's simple: There were ~62 million Trump voters in 2016. Do you really think that they're all the same in terms of personality/attitude/shyness/willingness to respond to pollsters/willingness to be honest to pollsters? I could name various extreme differences among people I know in real life. I could name various extreme differences in terms of public figures -- Alex Jones and Ben Shapiro; Scott Adams and Jerry Falwell Jr., Tim Pool and Ted Cruz, Ann Coulter and Ivanka Trump. And those are public figures. I know Trump supporters who would be paranoid of strangers calling them up on the phone and anxious about being doxxed and punished by the corporation they work for if they go to a rally. And I know Trump supporters (including myself) who would be totally honest about voting Trump to a stranger on the phone and wouldn't mind going to multiple rallies wearing gaudy campaign paraphenelia.

The existence of Trump supporters who aren't shy *DOES NOT IMPLY* that all Trump supporters aren't shy. This is such basic fucking logic that it's ridiculous that even retarded leftists spout it because I'd figure they're at least smarter than that. It's like saying "no naked human beings exist, all the human beings I've seen out on the street are wearing clothes."


At the very least, I could argue that Biden supporters are more uniform in how honest they'll be to a stranger calling them on the phone, because to them a stranger from a 'trustworthy' organization like the NYTimes or a stranger from a university probably won't fuck with them if they admit to supporting Biden (or any Democrat). On the other hand, Trump supporters will have a higher tendency to distrust strangers from media/university organizations calling them up out of the blue. Common sense.
 
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Here is the sampling from a Yougov poll, they are usually like this. It assumes democrats will be 41% of the vote, with republicans being 30%. In 2016 and 2012 it was 37% to 34%. Most media sponsored polls have been using sampling like this.View attachment 1659562

Ah, but here's the question: How is this sampling "wrong," exactly? Because if these numbers are accurate, then Trump is in huge trouble. Don't get me wrong, that's totally not the scenario that I want, but I don't want to just dismiss the polls either.

There has been such an influx of conflicting information that I don't know what to believe anymore. Like I've stated many times, I think that all bets are off when it comes to this election. Nine months ago, I would have said that Trump was in the making for an easy landslide, especially after his State of the Union. Now? After ALL of the shit that's gone down since? Yeah, I have no idea what to anticipate at this point, which is a damn shame.

I'm voting in person once my state starts early voting. Don't think my vote will matter much as I'm in a solid blue state, but I'm motivated and proud to vote for Trump considering the alternative. If Trump wins the electoral map, then I hope I am at least contributing to his popular vote count.

So since Trump has such big rallies and enthusiasm on his side, why aren't more of these "shy Trump voters" coming out of the woodwork? There's enough solidarity among conservatives that anyone who gets their tires slashed or their house burned down will not be unheard if they make enough noise.

Look at Nick Sandmann, the McCloskeys, or Aaron Danielson. GEOTUS stands up for his supporters when the Left does them wrong.
All of these people you mentioned have gone through absolute hell. Their reputations will be forever tarnished in the public eye because of these media witch hunts. No amount of money will make them be able to return to normalcy. Nick Sandmann may be rich AF now, but he won't ever be able to go out and live his life normally in the foreseeable future because there's more than enough people out there who hate him (even though the things said about him were lies).

There's a LOT you have to lose if you are an open Trump supporter. I'm enthusiastic to vote for him, but I'm even more reluctant to "come out" as a supporter than I was a few years ago. Some people are literally being murdered in cold blood for being Trump supporters.
 
I get texts for polling and refuse to answer because I know that the answer will be permanently stored somewhere and most likely sold off as well. Even if I thought Biden/Harris was the only thing that could save my life, I wouldn't be so openly supportive of them when it comes to polls.

While I don't think most people go along with that line of reasoning, I know trump supporters irl who simply don't trust anything that is invocative of big tech or mainstream media. Text polls are "big tech" to them.
 
I get texts for polling and refuse to answer because I know that the answer will be permanently stored somewhere and most likely sold off as well. Even if I thought Biden/Harris was the only thing that could save my life, I wouldn't be so openly supportive of them when it comes to polls.

While I don't think most people go along with that line of reasoning, I know trump supporters irl who simply don't trust anything that is invocative of big tech or mainstream media. Text polls are "big tech" to them.
You too? I don't understand how texting random people is supposed to help for their cause. I ask how they get my number, but I surmised that if you're registered to vote, they have your information on file.

Do actual people send those texts or are they bots?

It's borderline spam.
 
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