Trashfire Adam Kovic & Ryan Haywood (The Dead Pixel / Koko / Pikovic, and James Ryan Haywoood / Iron Ryan / The Mad King / Vagabond) - Rooster Teeth associates who've sent horrifying nudes behind their families' backs in what looks like a gay catfish

[Cpl. Long Dong Silver]

My Fave quotes from the document.

This is peak vapid 2020 whore on the internet. The height of navel gazing by the eternal subversive white women. This bitch.

 

[thegooddoctor]

Another day, another victim:

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https://tw.tinf.io/SurvivorsOfRyan/status/1317109362087858176 (archive)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1YY7ZCv-iNG_BLM3gB-8YVs5Ior49KIfLcEMSLsxfmek/edit (archive)

Spoiler: GOOGLE DOC TEXT

My experience with Ryan Haywood.

Some backstory before mine tale be told: I’ve been a fan of Rooster Teeth since 2012. I was born in 1997 and had just turned 20 when this took place in 2017. I did not sleep with him, but I know somebody once close to me who has. Their story is theirs to tell, if they wish to do it. This is going to be about my experience of the Haywood power dynamics over a small group of us who knew what was happening. I’m also going to make this as upbeat as I can, because I know several recent documents have chilled me to my core. This one is a bit lighter at least, but we still flirted, we both received suggestive pictures, and I was, of course, lied to. I think it’s more about the number of young people affected than anything else, and his reach went far. This does talk about friends of mine who knew what was going on, and I want to stay anonymous to protect their privacy. Some of them have experiences to tell, and again that’s their choice to make.

I first messaged him in March 2017, around the time he got his snapchat. I was in a group chat at this time with around six other RT fans, all around the same age; 19 to mid twenties or so. We all live in the UK, and while we have a strong community over here, we're separated from Achievement Hunter and RTX by the Atlantic, and being broke teens/YAs most of us couldn't really afford to go to any conventions in the US. We were BUZZING when Ryan downloaded snapchat. We could actually TALK to him. We were all sending long-ass sappy messages about how RT got us through the hard times, how godly everyone at RT was, typical adoring little dorky shit. Now, I have anxiety and BPD, and I was essentially a sexual tornado at that age (I know it’s only been 3 years but you grow up quickly in this ridiculous timeline). I was a real fat kid, and after 20 years I finally had a body I could be proud of. I don’t have all our messages saved, but Ryan knew this - as mentioned, I’d sent him some soliloquy about how RT helped me come out of my chubby shell, yada yada, I’ve made friends and gotten out more, yknow, pedestal stuff. When he responded, I rang my closest friend and just, like, started screaming. Other friends in my group chat were receiving responses, and we were FREAKED. Man, it was such a simpler time.

I don’t remember whose idea it was, it very well may have been mine, but a few of us within that group decided to be reckless and stupid, and send him nudes. My choice was my own, and why I sent nudes to a married man I honestly don’t know. Most likely hormones. I was finally “sexy” and wanted to feel like it, I guess. I was too scared to save our sexts on snapchat, but we did it twice. I felt like the most special person in the world.

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At this point I was kinda shocked by the “if i wasn’t a married man” comment. I had asked to send it beforehand and definitely implied what the content was going to be (lots of winky faces), but it was still weird to hear from, like, a dad. I took a picture from a different phone and sent it to the group chat. And then I learned that several of my friends had also gotten flirty messages from him. He sent us nudes back, even sent us snaps during breaks on his streams. We were excitable - and being that age, all sexed up - and some of my friends continued this relationship. One flew out on her own dime to sleep with him. Being naive, I continued talking to him too until we decided that shit was getting weird, and most of us wanted no part in it. So we stopped, but we knew a couple of people who were still having regular sexual chats with the fucker. He was telling my friends they were so beautiful he couldn’t bear for their relationship to stop, even though he felt guilty. Of course, he lied to us again:
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And‌ ‌then‌ ‌came‌ ‌RTXL‌ ‌2018.‌ ‌We‌ ‌all‌ ‌went‌ ‌as‌ ‌a‌ ‌group‌ ‌for‌ ‌the‌ ‌weekend‌ ‌and‌ ‌watched‌ ‌AH‌ ‌stream‌ ‌a‌ ‌game‌ ‌live‌ ‌onstage‌ ‌on‌ ‌the‌ ‌Saturday,‌ ‌I‌ ‌think‌ ‌it‌ ‌was‌ ‌Forza.‌ ‌We‌ ‌all‌ ‌knew‌ ‌full‌ ‌well‌ ‌by‌ ‌this‌ ‌point‌ ‌Ryan‌ ‌was‌ ‌cheating‌ ‌on‌ ‌his‌ ‌wife,‌ ‌and‌ ‌it‌ ‌was‌ ‌an‌ ‌amazing‌ ‌weekend‌ ‌but‌ ‌still‌ ‌a‌ ‌bit‌ ‌awkward.‌ ‌Which‌ ‌was‌ ‌made‌ ‌a‌ ‌bit‌ ‌more‌ ‌awkward‌ ‌when‌ ‌Lawrence‌ ‌pulled‌ ‌me‌ ‌out‌ ‌of‌ ‌the‌ ‌crowd‌ ‌and‌ ‌sat‌ ‌me‌ ‌AT‌ ‌RYANS’‌ ‌SEAT.‌ ‌NEXT‌ ‌to‌ ‌him.‌ ‌By‌ ‌this‌ ‌point,‌ ‌I’d‌ ‌told‌ ‌him‌ ‌how‌ ‌I/we‌ ‌felt‌ ‌about‌ ‌his‌ ‌sexting‌ ‌(screenshot‌ ‌above)‌ ‌and‌ ‌he‌ ‌had‌ ‌told‌ ‌us‌ ‌he‌ ‌was‌ ‌stopping‌ ‌(which‌ ‌of‌ ‌course,‌ ‌he‌ ‌hadn’t).‌ ‌I‌ ‌had‌ ‌a‌ ‌good‌ ‌feeling‌ ‌he‌ ‌definitely‌ ‌recognised‌ ‌me‌ ‌when‌ ‌I‌ ‌hugged‌ ‌him,‌ ‌and‌ ‌then‌ ‌when‌ ‌he‌ ‌sat‌ ‌next‌ ‌to‌ ‌me‌ ‌and‌ ‌ran‌ ‌me‌ ‌through‌ ‌everything,‌ ‌playing‌ ‌the‌ ‌game‌ ‌with‌ ‌me.‌ ‌We‌ ‌were‌ ‌in‌ ‌front‌ ‌of‌ ‌hundreds‌ ‌of‌ ‌people‌ ‌and‌ ‌I‌ ‌was‌ ‌emotionally‌ ‌peeing‌ ‌all‌ ‌over‌ ‌the‌ ‌stage.‌ ‌Would‌ ‌he‌ ‌ban‌ ‌me‌ ‌from‌ ‌the‌ ‌community?‌ ‌Would‌ ‌he‌ ‌recognise‌ ‌me?‌ ‌Would‌ ‌we‌ ‌go‌ ‌and‌ ‌have‌ ‌sex?‌ ‌I‌ ‌was‌ ‌feeling‌ ‌every‌ ‌emotion‌ ‌possible‌ ‌about‌ ‌this‌ ‌man‌ ‌after‌ ‌I‌ ‌had‌ ‌been‌ ‌plucked‌ ‌anime-style‌ ‌from‌ ‌a‌ ‌crowd‌ ‌into‌ ‌his‌ ‌arms‌ ‌and‌ ‌made‌ ‌to‌ ‌play‌ ‌a‌ ‌game‌ ‌with‌ ‌him‌ ‌I‌ ‌knew‌ ‌I‌ ‌would‌ ‌suck‌ ‌at‌ ‌in‌ ‌front‌ ‌of‌ ‌hundreds‌ ‌of‌ ‌people,‌ ‌so‌ ‌I‌ ‌just‌ ‌focused‌ ‌all‌ ‌my‌ ‌energy‌ ‌into‌ ‌not‌ ‌sucking.‌ ‌(I‌ ‌failed.)‌ ‌Ryan‌ ‌leaned‌ ‌over‌ ‌me‌ ‌several‌ ‌times,‌ ‌chatted‌ ‌to‌ ‌me‌ ‌onstage,‌ ‌held‌ ‌my‌ ‌hands‌ ‌over‌ ‌the‌ ‌controller‌ ‌like‌ ‌the‌ ‌WHOLE‌ ‌TIME‌ ‌and‌ ‌I‌ ‌believe‌ ‌he‌ ‌put‌ ‌his‌ ‌arm‌ ‌around‌ ‌me‌ ‌a‌ ‌few‌ ‌times.‌ ‌I‌ ‌now‌ ‌realise‌ ‌this‌ ‌was‌ ‌a‌ ‌manipulation‌ ‌tactic‌ ‌to‌ ‌overwhelm‌ ‌me‌ ‌with‌ ‌conflicting‌ ‌feelings‌ ‌and‌ ‌keep‌ ‌me‌ ‌quiet.‌ ‌I‌ ‌got‌ ‌off‌ ‌stage‌ ‌and‌ ‌ran‌ ‌back‌ ‌to‌ ‌my‌ ‌friends,‌ ‌who‌ ‌were‌ ‌all‌ ‌losing‌ ‌their‌ ‌shit.‌ ‌I‌ ‌was‌ ‌absolutely‌ ‌buzzing,‌ ‌and‌ ‌in‌ ‌a‌ ‌blind‌ ‌love‌ ‌for‌ ‌an‌ ‌older‌ ‌celebrity‌ ‌figure.‌

It‌ ‌was‌ ‌a‌ ‌happy‌ ‌moment,‌ ‌but‌ ‌in‌ ‌hindsight,‌ ‌we‌ ‌knew‌ ‌this‌ ‌man‌ ‌was‌ ‌a‌ ‌serial‌ ‌cheater‌ ‌who‌ ‌went‌ ‌after‌ ‌young,‌ ‌vulnerable‌ ‌women‌ ‌in‌ ‌his‌ ‌community.‌ ‌It’s‌ ‌a‌ ‌very‌ ‌different‌ ‌moment‌ ‌now,‌ ‌thinking‌ ‌back‌ ‌on‌ ‌it,‌ ‌but‌ ‌I‌ ‌was‌ ‌ecstatic‌ ‌and‌ ‌my‌ ‌friends‌ ‌were‌ ‌so‌ ‌happy‌ ‌for‌ ‌me‌ ‌mainly‌ ‌due‌ ‌to‌ ‌his‌ ‌manipulation.‌ ‌He‌ ‌was‌ ‌personal‌ ‌with‌ ‌us,‌ ‌special‌ ‌with‌ ‌us.‌ ‌He‌ ‌knew‌ ‌where‌ ‌I‌ ‌was‌ ‌going‌ ‌to‌ ‌university.‌ ‌He‌ ‌knew‌ ‌my‌ ‌home‌ ‌borough,‌ ‌he‌ ‌knew‌ ‌what‌ ‌games‌ ‌I‌ ‌loved,‌ ‌he‌ ‌even‌ ‌talked‌ ‌about‌ ‌my‌ ‌friends‌ ‌in‌ ‌our‌ ‌group‌ ‌chat.‌ ‌He‌ ‌was‌ ‌manipulating‌ ‌a‌ ‌whole‌ ‌group‌ ‌of‌ ‌us‌ ‌at‌ ‌once,‌ ‌including‌ ‌the‌ ‌male‌ ‌members‌ ‌who‌ ‌idolised‌ ‌him.‌ ‌He‌ ‌knew‌ ‌I‌ ‌didn't‌ ‌approve,‌ ‌and‌ ‌he‌ ‌still‌ ‌got‌ ‌so‌ ‌close‌ ‌to‌ ‌me.‌ ‌It‌ ‌made‌ ‌me‌ ‌feel‌ ‌so‌ ‌special,‌ ‌and‌ ‌I‌ ‌couldn't‌ ‌hate‌ ‌him‌ ‌after‌ ‌that.‌ ‌We‌ ‌started‌ ‌messaging‌ ‌again‌ ‌that‌ ‌night,‌ ‌even‌ ‌though‌ ‌it‌ ‌had‌ ‌been‌ ‌a‌ ‌few‌ ‌months‌ ‌since‌ ‌we’d‌ ‌talked‌ ‌at‌ ‌that‌ ‌point:‌

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I‌ ‌mentioned‌ ‌that‌ ‌my‌ ‌experience‌ ‌wasn’t‌ ‌nearly‌ ‌as‌ ‌bad‌ ‌as‌ ‌some‌ ‌of‌ ‌the‌ ‌poor‌ ‌women‌ ‌and‌ ‌girls‌ ‌who‌ ‌were‌ ‌emotionally‌ ‌manipulated‌ ‌or‌ ‌sexually‌ ‌abused‌ ‌by‌ ‌Ryan.‌ ‌And‌ ‌it‌ ‌isn’t,‌ ‌I‌ ‌sent‌ ‌him‌ ‌pictures‌ ‌when‌ ‌I‌ ‌was‌ ‌young‌ ‌and‌ ‌naive.‌ ‌My‌ ‌actions‌ ‌are‌ ‌my‌ ‌own.‌ ‌However,‌ ‌looking‌ ‌back‌ ‌on‌ ‌how‌ ‌all‌ ‌of‌ ‌my‌ ‌close‌ ‌friends‌ ‌were‌ ‌also‌ ‌manipulated,‌ ‌kept‌ ‌quiet‌ ‌and‌ ‌never‌ ‌came‌ ‌forward,‌ ‌I‌ ‌am‌ ‌furious.‌ ‌How‌ ‌on‌ ‌earth‌ ‌he‌ ‌thought‌ ‌he‌ ‌could‌ ‌get‌ ‌away‌ ‌with‌ ‌this‌ ‌I‌ ‌have‌ ‌no‌ ‌idea.‌ ‌He‌ ‌was‌ ‌sexting‌ ‌three‌ ‌of‌ ‌us,‌ ‌fucked‌ ‌one,‌ ‌and‌ ‌manipulated‌ ‌the‌ ‌rest.‌ ‌This‌ ‌was‌ ‌a‌ ‌chat‌ ‌of‌ ‌8‌ ‌people.‌ ‌I‌ ‌have‌ ‌no‌ ‌respect‌ ‌or‌ ‌sympathy‌ ‌for‌ ‌this‌ ‌man.‌ ‌He‌ ‌somehow‌ ‌kept‌ ‌a‌ ‌whole‌ ‌group‌ ‌of‌ ‌us‌ ‌quiet‌ ‌for‌ ‌three‌ ‌years,‌ ‌and‌ ‌I‌ ‌still‌ ‌can’t‌ ‌quite‌ ‌get‌ ‌over‌ ‌that.‌ ‌He‌ ‌saw‌ ‌the‌ ‌scars‌ ‌on‌ ‌my‌ ‌arms,‌ ‌he‌ ‌told‌ ‌me‌ ‌I‌ ‌was‌ ‌beautiful,‌ ‌and‌ ‌he‌ ‌manipulated‌ ‌me.‌ ‌It’s‌ ‌a‌ ‌weird‌ ‌thought‌ ‌I‌ ‌haven’t‌ ‌really‌ ‌dwelled‌ ‌on‌ ‌yet.‌ ‌I‌ ‌know‌ ‌my‌ ‌actions‌ ‌were‌ ‌wrong,‌ ‌but‌ ‌they‌ ‌were‌ ‌also‌ ‌inevitable.‌ ‌There's‌ ‌no‌ ‌way‌ ‌with‌ ‌my‌ ‌naivete‌ ‌at‌ ‌that‌ ‌age‌ ‌and‌ ‌mental‌ ‌state‌ ‌I‌ ‌wasn't‌ ‌going‌ ‌to‌ ‌pursue‌ ‌something‌ ‌like‌ ‌that‌ ‌with‌ ‌him,‌ ‌especially‌ ‌when‌ ‌my‌ ‌friends‌ ‌were‌ ‌doing‌ ‌it‌ ‌too.‌ ‌I‌ ‌was‌ ‌immature‌ ‌and‌ ‌starstruck.‌ ‌I'm‌ ‌truly‌ ‌sorry‌ ‌any‌ ‌of‌ ‌this‌ ‌happened,‌ ‌it's‌ ‌brought‌ ‌so‌ ‌much‌ ‌pain.‌ ‌ ‌
‌
I’m‌ ‌not‌ ‌really‌ ‌sure‌ ‌how‌ ‌to‌ ‌finish,‌ ‌except‌ ‌that‌ ‌we‌ ‌truly‌ ‌thought‌ ‌we‌ ‌knew‌ ‌the‌ ‌full‌ ‌story,‌ ‌that‌ ‌he‌ ‌was‌ ‌a‌ ‌cheater‌ ‌and‌ ‌a‌ ‌flirt.‌ ‌He‌ ‌was‌ ‌a‌ ‌sexually‌ ‌violent‌ ‌predator‌ ‌who‌ ‌took‌ ‌money‌ ‌from‌ ‌adoring‌ ‌fans‌ ‌for‌ ‌his‌ ‌children‌ ‌and‌ ‌threw‌ ‌them‌ ‌at‌ ‌young,‌ ‌vulnerable‌ ‌women.‌ ‌We‌ ‌have‌ ‌been‌ ‌just‌ ‌as‌ ‌floored‌ ‌by‌ ‌everything‌ ‌that‌ ‌has‌ ‌been‌ ‌going‌ ‌on.‌ ‌We‌ ‌knew‌ ‌part‌ ‌of‌ ‌the‌ ‌story,‌ ‌and‌ ‌it‌ ‌hurt‌ ‌living‌ ‌with‌ ‌that,‌ ‌but‌ ‌the‌ ‌full‌ ‌story‌ ‌is‌ ‌more‌ ‌painful‌ ‌than‌ ‌we‌ ‌imagined.‌ ‌We‌ ‌need‌ ‌to‌ ‌heal‌ ‌from‌ ‌this,‌ ‌and‌ ‌wait‌ ‌for‌ ‌the‌ ‌day‌ ‌when‌ ‌Ryan‌ ‌is‌ ‌a‌ ‌distant,‌ ‌uncomfortable‌ ‌memory.‌

Pics are in context in the spoilers. Here are just the pics:

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Fast Facts
Age: 20
Mental Illness: Yes (BPD, self harm)
BMI: lost childhood weight, still porky
Sexts: Yes
Nudes: Yes
Sex: No
Relationship: March 2017 (she ended it)
Who Initiated: Her
Extra Info: was part of a group of UK girls with 3 sexting him, 1 paid her own way to fly to the USA for unpleasant sex with Ryan. He was sending them snaps during streams. Hints at others who continued sexting him after she and another stopped.

Hoo Boy!! Lucky ten!! Who wants to bet they'll be five more braggart hoes deliberately slipping into this cunts hands under the guise of blamess
Victims by Next Friday Eve! Place ya bets ladies and Gentlemen!!

 

[TherapyMan]

A lot of these girls are adopting the same personality, the one that's considered woke and fun on Twitter. They're trying to be a Cool Girl. Then they get hurt when they find out he's been seeing other girls, did more with other girls, or just moved on and they were only a fling. They had expected that their quirkiness and sexual gameness would capture his heart.

The only paradigm in their sphere that they have to understand what happened is: either you're a sex-positive bad boss bitch in control of your sexuality or you're a poor helpless victim. So if they're not feeling good about it anymore, it means they must be a victim.

In reality, they're just like your average woman (and probably most men too): they want an exclusive partner who makes them feel special and gives all of their romantic attention to them only. They just can't acknowledge it to themselves because being a normie straight is boring and gets you no LGBTQ+ clout. So instead of having a happy relationship and children, they end up with extra pronouns, validating retweet attention, and STDs.

The lesson: keep your kids off twitter, folks.

The phenomena is much simpler and timeless than you're making it out to be. The bottom line is that all these girls wanted to feel special. Ryan fed them a line known for tricking women that's been around since before Caesar: "We have a connection. You're not like the other girls. You're totally my special snowflake and not just another slam-piece." Listen to "Superstar" by the Carpenters (or the Sonic Youth version, if you prefer) and tell me it doesn't describe the situation and attitudes of the girls almost perfectly. The sort of ennui over being had by a "celebrity" (I'm using the term loosely to describe Haywood here) is nothing new.

The only thing that's different now is that all these people can congregate together on Twitter to bitch about it. And I mean, fair enough: Ryan is a shitty guy who cheated on his wife and exploited what little clout he had to manipulate gullible teen girls into giving him sexual favors. Don't get me wrong, it's dumb that they fell for such an obvious ploy and immensely shitty they acted without any considerations for Ryan's wife, but it doesn't make Ryan's tactics here any less reprehensible.

 

[4Macie]

We are now getting into territory where literally nothing happened and people are claiming victim.

Group of girls hit up a married man. Decided to send him nudes as a group funny ... and then seem shocked when he decided to talk to all of them in a sexual manner?? Really? He didn’t manipulate you. You did this all on your own.

It’s stupid stories like these that make real underaged girl stories forgettable.

 

[that_monika]

what're the odds this is his next tactic?

 

[Twitcha66]

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what're the odds this is his next tactic?

That’s Fucking great . All he needs now is a photo of himself with a Biden 2020 shirt with a little blm fist necklace

 

[Kazukifaen]

Another day, another victim:

Our boy have really fucking done it 10 !!! I bet he had 15+ bodies. After this shit show is over.

 

[Captain Manning]

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what're the odds this is his next tactic?

If he's an idiot, sure. Didn't that backfire horribly on Kevin Spacey? Like, not just with people like us, but pretty much everybody?

 

[chudley_wetlegs]

The purge has begun

I was watching Sky Factory 4 earlier, now it's gone. There's specific episodes of series missing but not the entire thing

Seems like they are going through one by one.

Episode 9 is private, 10 and 11 are gone, everything else is still live

10 and 11 featured Gavin's "room of truth" and the unfortunate sign about Ryan's "harem of women"

https://kiwifarms.st/threads/adam-k...mad-king-vagabond.77130/page-181#post-7533811

 

[TurkishOreo]

An apple a day keeps the victims coming.

 

[Reverend]

#10 with a hint towards a #11, beautiful. I do like the daisy chaining happening here, by my last count, we’ve got at least 3 more girls unaccounted for.

damn and it wasn't even the weekend. 10 also says there was 2 more that he was banging.

 

[mai minakami]

With this last victim: this is what happens when you weaponize your mental issues against yourself. You end up with women feeling like empty sluts (redundant) when their sex positive spiel proves time and time again that it's mentally ill to be a whore. I have no sympathy for this one because she did it on her own, she's making the ones who actually went through shit invalid and she's the epitome of modern sex culture.
Vapid Twitter attention whore.
Don't let your kids have Twitter.

 

[s0mbra]

I know reaction pics are looked down upon but this is what popped into my head reading all this

 

[easymodo]

In regards to a possible medical condition, I can't find the official medical term, but if sex is done bad enough and tearing occurs then you can get internal vaginal scarring.

The scarring doesn't go away, and it won't 100% go away with surgery. It's really rare. It also sounds familiar. I know one or two women with it, and it requires a lot of nursing beforehand to make the pain manageable.

 

[IAmNotAlpharius]

In regards to a possible medical condition, I can't find the official medical term, but if sex is done bad enough and tearing occurs then you can get internal vaginal scarring.

The scarring doesn't go away, and it won't 100% go away with surgery. It's really rare. It also sounds familiar. I know one or two women with it, and it requires a lot of nursing beforehand to make the pain manageable.

Could he have caused the scarring?

 

[easymodo]

Could he have caused the scarring?

That's my guess.

 

[NeverRight]

The fuck?

I'm pretty sure that, two days ago, the first twenty videos on the Let's Play channel only had around 70k-80k viewers. Now they have around 150k, to 300k fucking views. What's going on? The RT-fancult trying to prove some weird, pathetic point?

I don't know why, but for some reason that pisses me the hell off. LET IT DIE ALREADY

 

[Orange Rhymer]

Holy shit, I did not think there would be a tenth accuser for someone from a small-fry entertainment company but here it is. I hate to say it but I think Ryan's going to an hero before the month is out at this rate.


Looks like you won here, mate.

Day ain't over yet.

Also, are we actually counting the "I sent him nudes and now I have PTSD" brigade ? If so, this could fly into 3 digit land, easily.

Maybe we need to scrub the data and only count sexual assault (charges filed/charges pending) and/or actual sexual intercourse (hole entered with penis) ?
With this crowd of autistic fangirls, shit is gonna get weird, FAST.
They CRAVE attention and either satisfied that with Ryan previously or will attempt to satisfy it now (with false claims).

 

[Truly Rural]

Here it is, the ultimate explanation of what brave stands for as used by metoo attention whores. It stands for confidence and determination required to send nudes.

I feel so brave, incoming a closeup of my slit~ Are you brave enough to receive it? Sorry I feel brave again, get on my horny level~

 

[The Demon]

Some of these accusations are sounding like the navy seal copypasta except with with 300 confirmed mental illnesses instead of kills