General Discussion for Virtual Youtubers / Vtubers / Chuubas - it's okay to be a simp for 2D, just don't thirstpost.

[The One And Only SALTE]

I powerleveled a bit saying i was from the farms and they seem to be cool with it as long as you're chill

Probably the biggest power play would be if we got an ENVtuber from any major agency to say on their debut that their favorite fruit and favorite bird are both kiwi.

 

[Fcret]

I had the same idea if Cover ever gets off their ass to make Holostars EN, but that'll be a while. I think the original auditions they only allowed males to audition (much like they're doing with the current VSinger auditions) because of American EEO laws forcing them to let anyone audition even if they already have an idea of who they'll let in. That said, I know my chances are slim to none because I'm definitely not really what they would look for in the holostars department (I write), so I can only hope they recruit a metalhead into their ranks.

American EEO laws don't really apply to entertainers though. Title VII of the Civil Rights Act has an affirmative defense clause baked in ("Bona Fide Occupational Qualifications") which permits sex discrimination if the job you're hiring for absolutely requires a certain sex (or even race). My thinking is that Cover didn't really know what they wanted to do with EN until after they started reviewing auditions.

 

[Rednax Kyuu]

Hey been lurking for a good while but since shit might be going down anytime I wanted to say kudos for the conversation. This is my main thread on KF now, everything else died down or been dying. 2020 was hell of a shit year but glad we got em chuubas exploding, it's been a fun ride so far and im looking forward for what's to come.

to make it relevant, here's my fav tidbit of all time

 

[Thomas Talus]

Hey been lurking for a good while but since shit might be going down anytime I wanted to say kudos for the conversation. This is my main thread on KF now, everything else died down or been dying. 2020 was hell of a shit year but glad we got em chuubas exploding, it's been a fun ride so far and im looking forward for what's to come.

to make it relevant, here's my fav tidbit of all time

Yeah, post-election I've felt the need to unplug from Momentous Events and vTubers have fit the bill perfectly.

 

[xHayabusa_]

This original post had turned into a longwinded personal rambling. I'm editing it out so that it doesn't clutter the place up.

 

[No Shot Bucko]

First mom on becoming a vtuber?

hold on to your butts

 

[grenskul]

Well, just be careful and aware of what you're getting into here. Not that I fault or judge anyone here for it- in fact I think the level of deduction and in the know expertise is quite impressive- but there is a lot of behind the scenes information about vtubers, including face reveals and other such personal information that they would never want you to know and could be considered dangerous to their perception, floating around here.

Allow me to regale you as briefly as possible with my own story. Being pretty thoroughly entrenched in everything weeb for the past 5 or so years after being light to mildly weeb for most of my life before that, I was well aware of the new "vtuber" phenomenon when probably the first contemporary pin talent got the ball rolling on the trend, Kizuna Ai. I watched a couple of her videos but never really thought too much of it or anything. Probably the first time I heard about Hololive was when Azur Lane did a collab event last year with some of the early Hololive girls as event ships. I enjoyed a lot of Fubuki's silly one off meme videos like "I'm Scatman" and the super meme edits and remixes of it by hamburgaga. Then 2020 rolled around and my interest level in it still remained quite lukewarm. I watched some of Miko's popular GTA V clips like the "stay home" rooftop sniper scene and the infamous n word scene. I went on like this the same pretty much right up to the announcement of the first generation of Hololive EN- aware of it, but not super interested.

I was honestly very skeptical of the idea and figured the English vtubers would be about as cringe as the average bad anime dub. I had very low expectations and didn't actually catch any of the girls' debut streams. The day after her debut though, I kept seeing Gura blowing up all over the internet. I saw the classic "a" video, and decided to tune into her second stream that night, where she played maneater I believe. That was probably the moment that got me hooked into the rabbit hole.

From there on out, I was watching Gura's streams every single night, until the first day came that she took a day off. I didn't know what else to watch, but saw that Amelia Watson was streaming that night so I decided to tune into that instead. That pattern of mainly watching Gura and then Watson whenever Gura had an off day continued for about a week or so, and I can't remember when exactly the moment was, but something about her got me into Amelia way more than Gura or anyone else. I became completely enthralled. I started developing what would turn into a huge crush on Amelia. It eventually got out of hand and became pretty unhealthy- I was spending way too much time watching her or thinking about her, it had even started noticeably distracting me from work, and I knew fully well that this was becoming a problem, but I just let myself keep going because there was also a part of me that just enjoyed the opportunity to feel something like this again because it's been over 5 years since I've had any sort of crush such as this on anyone.

I was aware that at least some of the EN girls had been around as figures in the community or streamers. It didn't take long for me to recognize Gura's previous guise. I didn't really know about anyone else's previous lives until very recently- I didn't even know they did anything at all. Being as, frankly, obsessed as I was, I started watching all of the stream archives I could find of Gura and mainly Amelia's previous twitch streams, saved from the wipes that they did. I just found it really endearing and nostalgic, to think how (well, Gura was already pretty popular) they went from such humble careers so recently to exploding into what they are now. And there was an element of satisfaction to it- "I know they'll never admit that this is them, but I know them well enough to see that this is obviously them, and they're just as cute back then as they are now." All that was fine, until I came across a short clip of Ame using an actual facecam and not a 2D model. The face was blacked out, but the rest of her upper body was visible and definitely not what I was expecting, but oh well, you just never know what a person will look like based on their voice alone. What really got me was the voice. It sounded absolutely nothing like Amelia at all. I honestly thought for a while "there's no way that could be her, right?" It was a voice not nearly as cute or bubbly as the Amelia Watson I know. It was just deep and apathetic. And that was what got me searching for confirmation on whether or not that was really her, which largely brought me here. For better or worse, I had committed myself to breaking the anonymity and finding out as much about her as possible. I honestly still can't say I'm 100% sure, but I am fairly convinced that it was indeed her, and that the voice we hear in her streams as Amelia Watson is nothing like what her actual everyday voice sounds like. That, and the other information I learned about the real person behind Amelia just got me completely disenchanted.

I have since found out just about everything there is to know about the other 4 EN girls, and it hasn't really had any negative effect on my perception of them. It's just a bit sad that my absolute favorite vtuber and really one of my favorite overall streamers ever went from my favorite hololive EN to my least favorite. You can call me weak or hypocritical, but it just feels like with Ame, kind of unlike anyone else, I was being deceived. Maybe I was placing unfair or unrealistic expectations on her, but it is what it is. I'm well aware that there are other hololive members out there who are not as young as me, but the way they carry themselves still doesn't feel like they're actively deceiving me the way I felt with Ame. I'm sure a lot what I just described is something that would draw immense ridicule and cringe from people all over the internet, possibly even here. I guess you could say I'm in a stage of recovery from my unhealthy obsession and figuring out how to move forward. This is not to say that such issues are widespread. I do not accuse other fans of hololive or vtubers in general of being like me. In fact I would be quite confident that the vast majority are nothing like me. As with anything, it has its morons, but overall I think the vtuber community is a pretty good one. I'll still be watching, just maybe not very much Watson in the near future. Well that ended up not being very brief at all but yeah, just be aware of what you're getting yourself into here lol.

I'ma be honest that's pretty autistic even for the farms.

 

[Gravemind]

Well, just be careful and aware of what you're getting into here. Not that I fault or judge anyone here for it- in fact I think the level of deduction and in the know expertise is quite impressive- but there is a lot of behind the scenes information about vtubers, including face reveals and other such personal information that they would never want you to know and could be considered dangerous to their perception, floating around here.

Allow me to regale you as briefly as possible with my own story. Being pretty thoroughly entrenched in everything weeb for the past 5 or so years after being light to mildly weeb for most of my life before that, I was well aware of the new "vtuber" phenomenon when probably the first contemporary pin talent got the ball rolling on the trend, Kizuna Ai. I watched a couple of her videos but never really thought too much of it or anything. Probably the first time I heard about Hololive was when Azur Lane did a collab event last year with some of the early Hololive girls as event ships. I enjoyed a lot of Fubuki's silly one off meme videos like "I'm Scatman" and the super meme edits and remixes of it by hamburgaga. Then 2020 rolled around and my interest level in it still remained quite lukewarm. I watched some of Miko's popular GTA V clips like the "stay home" rooftop sniper scene and the infamous n word scene. I went on like this the same pretty much right up to the announcement of the first generation of Hololive EN- aware of it, but not super interested.

I was honestly very skeptical of the idea and figured the English vtubers would be about as cringe as the average bad anime dub. I had very low expectations and didn't actually catch any of the girls' debut streams. The day after her debut though, I kept seeing Gura blowing up all over the internet. I saw the classic "a" video, and decided to tune into her second stream that night, where she played maneater I believe. That was probably the moment that got me hooked into the rabbit hole.

From there on out, I was watching Gura's streams every single night, until the first day came that she took a day off. I didn't know what else to watch, but saw that Amelia Watson was streaming that night so I decided to tune into that instead. That pattern of mainly watching Gura and then Watson whenever Gura had an off day continued for about a week or so, and I can't remember when exactly the moment was, but something about her got me into Amelia way more than Gura or anyone else. I became completely enthralled. I started developing what would turn into a huge crush on Amelia. It eventually got out of hand and became pretty unhealthy- I was spending way too much time watching her or thinking about her, it had even started noticeably distracting me from work, and I knew fully well that this was becoming a problem, but I just let myself keep going because there was also a part of me that just enjoyed the opportunity to feel something like this again because it's been over 5 years since I've had any sort of crush such as this on anyone.

I was aware that at least some of the EN girls had been around as figures in the community or streamers. It didn't take long for me to recognize Gura's previous guise. I didn't really know about anyone else's previous lives until very recently- I didn't even know they did anything at all. Being as, frankly, obsessed as I was, I started watching all of the stream archives I could find of Gura and mainly Amelia's previous twitch streams, saved from the wipes that they did. I just found it really endearing and nostalgic, to think how (well, Gura was already pretty popular) they went from such humble careers so recently to exploding into what they are now. And there was an element of satisfaction to it- "I know they'll never admit that this is them, but I know them well enough to see that this is obviously them, and they're just as cute back then as they are now." All that was fine, until I came across a short clip of Ame using an actual facecam and not a 2D model. The face was blacked out, but the rest of her upper body was visible and definitely not what I was expecting, but oh well, you just never know what a person will look like based on their voice alone. What really got me was the voice. It sounded absolutely nothing like Amelia at all. I honestly thought for a while "there's no way that could be her, right?" It was a voice not nearly as cute or bubbly as the Amelia Watson I know. It was just deep and apathetic. And that was what got me searching for confirmation on whether or not that was really her, which largely brought me here. For better or worse, I had committed myself to breaking the anonymity and finding out as much about her as possible. I honestly still can't say I'm 100% sure, but I am fairly convinced that it was indeed her, and that the voice we hear in her streams as Amelia Watson is nothing like what her actual everyday voice sounds like. That, and the other information I learned about the real person behind Amelia just got me completely disenchanted.

I have since found out just about everything there is to know about the other 4 EN girls, and it hasn't really had any negative effect on my perception of them. It's just a bit sad that my absolute favorite vtuber and really one of my favorite overall streamers ever went from my favorite hololive EN to my least favorite. You can call me weak or hypocritical, but it just feels like with Ame, kind of unlike anyone else, I was being deceived. Maybe I was placing unfair or unrealistic expectations on her, but it is what it is. I'm well aware that there are other hololive members out there who are not as young as me, but the way they carry themselves still doesn't feel like they're actively deceiving me the way I felt with Ame. I'm sure a lot what I just described is something that would draw immense ridicule and cringe from people all over the internet, possibly even here. I guess you could say I'm in a stage of recovery from my unhealthy obsession and figuring out how to move forward. This is not to say that such issues are widespread. I do not accuse other fans of hololive or vtubers in general of being like me. In fact I would be quite confident that the vast majority are nothing like me. As with anything, it has its morons, but overall I think the vtuber community is a pretty good one. I'll still be watching, just maybe not very much Watson in the near future. Well that ended up not being very brief at all but yeah, just be aware of what you're getting yourself into here lol.

TL;DR. Not your personal blog, newfag. Most of us are well aware of the implications involved in breaking faykabe for yourself, or so I'd like to imagine.

Speaking of Ame

More like "Someone pls carry me" since she's pretty fucking shit at the game. Not that I hate her for it, since I don't really hate any of the EN crew, just calling it like it is.

 

[That guy over there]

Speaking of Ame
View attachment 1775213
More like "Someone pls carry me" since she's pretty fucking shit at the game. Not that I hate her for it, since I don't really hate any of the EN crew, just calling it like it is.

I think she means that she's gonna carry the game back to life

 

[Cubanodun]

TL;DR. Not your personal blog, newfag. Most of us are well aware of the implications involved in breaking faykabe for yourself, or so I'd like to imagine.

Speaking of Ame
View attachment 1775213
More like "Someone pls carry me" since she's pretty fucking shit at the game. Not that I hate her for it, since I don't really hate any of the EN crew, just calling it like it is.

People is more amused that she is going to go day 1 with Cyberpunk 2077, so that means the deal with the witcher was for the entire library of CDPR, im expecting she breaking 70k viewers and people laughing about how she gets more money than DSP

 

[Jaeger]

Hmmm...

Well, just be careful and aware of what you're getting into here. .....

I can't speak for other people but I can speak for myself.

I got into it back when I first saw Siro (from Siro Channel) play 2016 Doom back in Feb 2018. I got into Hololive around the beginning of 2020 thanks to Miko and Korone. I started lurking on this thread a few months ago. Never have I experienced what you're describing.

Fact is, the vast majority of the internet population are either too immature, too emotionally/psychologically stunted, or whatever, to deal with the separation of fantasy and reality or discuss the individuals behind the avatar. The risk of having a place like this isn't so much to the mature ones looking to discuss long-term career trends (for example, how Karen's work has evolved from DemonDice to being Calli). The risk is to everybody else. The majority lacks the maturity, self-awareness, and emotional/psychological stability not to be a complete idiot and spread this stuff all over the internet in search of clout and accolades, or build up some imaginary LARP in their apartment where Gura or Aqua has replaced Rainbow Dash as their imaginary spouse/spank fantasy in order to cope with feeling unloved.

I'll be frank--the majority of humankind isn't evolved enough for the Internet, let alone a site where people candidly discuss the in's and out's of Vtubers, the behind-the-scenes, and their careers. To push the matter a bit further, what this particular community needs isn't someone else's Discord server to which to migrate but a closed, heavily curated community that only lets in a few at a time based on trust and good behavior. I have no idea if that is feasible, though, or even worth the trouble.

 

[Iox]

Well, just be careful and aware of what you're getting into here. Not that I fault or judge anyone here for it- in fact I think the level of deduction and in the know expertise is quite impressive- but there is a lot of behind the scenes information about vtubers, including face reveals and other such personal information that they would never want you to know and could be considered dangerous to their perception, floating around here.

Allow me to regale you as briefly as possible with my own story. Being pretty thoroughly entrenched in everything weeb for the past 5 or so years after being light to mildly weeb for most of my life before that, I was well aware of the new "vtuber" phenomenon when probably the first contemporary pin talent got the ball rolling on the trend, Kizuna Ai. I watched a couple of her videos but never really thought too much of it or anything. Probably the first time I heard about Hololive was when Azur Lane did a collab event last year with some of the early Hololive girls as event ships. I enjoyed a lot of Fubuki's silly one off meme videos like "I'm Scatman" and the super meme edits and remixes of it by hamburgaga. Then 2020 rolled around and my interest level in it still remained quite lukewarm. I watched some of Miko's popular GTA V clips like the "stay home" rooftop sniper scene and the infamous n word scene. I went on like this the same pretty much right up to the announcement of the first generation of Hololive EN- aware of it, but not super interested.

I was honestly very skeptical of the idea and figured the English vtubers would be about as cringe as the average bad anime dub. I had very low expectations and didn't actually catch any of the girls' debut streams. The day after her debut though, I kept seeing Gura blowing up all over the internet. I saw the classic "a" video, and decided to tune into her second stream that night, where she played maneater I believe. That was probably the moment that got me hooked into the rabbit hole.

From there on out, I was watching Gura's streams every single night, until the first day came that she took a day off. I didn't know what else to watch, but saw that Amelia Watson was streaming that night so I decided to tune into that instead. That pattern of mainly watching Gura and then Watson whenever Gura had an off day continued for about a week or so, and I can't remember when exactly the moment was, but something about her got me into Amelia way more than Gura or anyone else. I became completely enthralled. I started developing what would turn into a huge crush on Amelia. It eventually got out of hand and became pretty unhealthy- I was spending way too much time watching her or thinking about her, it had even started noticeably distracting me from work, and I knew fully well that this was becoming a problem, but I just let myself keep going because there was also a part of me that just enjoyed the opportunity to feel something like this again because it's been over 5 years since I've had any sort of crush such as this on anyone.

I was aware that at least some of the EN girls had been around as figures in the community or streamers. It didn't take long for me to recognize Gura's previous guise. I didn't really know about anyone else's previous lives until very recently- I didn't even know they did anything at all. Being as, frankly, obsessed as I was, I started watching all of the stream archives I could find of Gura and mainly Amelia's previous twitch streams, saved from the wipes that they did. I just found it really endearing and nostalgic, to think how (well, Gura was already pretty popular) they went from such humble careers so recently to exploding into what they are now. And there was an element of satisfaction to it- "I know they'll never admit that this is them, but I know them well enough to see that this is obviously them, and they're just as cute back then as they are now." All that was fine, until I came across a short clip of Ame using an actual facecam and not a 2D model. The face was blacked out, but the rest of her upper body was visible and definitely not what I was expecting, but oh well, you just never know what a person will look like based on their voice alone. What really got me was the voice. It sounded absolutely nothing like Amelia at all. I honestly thought for a while "there's no way that could be her, right?" It was a voice not nearly as cute or bubbly as the Amelia Watson I know. It was just deep and apathetic. And that was what got me searching for confirmation on whether or not that was really her, which largely brought me here. For better or worse, I had committed myself to breaking the anonymity and finding out as much about her as possible. I honestly still can't say I'm 100% sure, but I am fairly convinced that it was indeed her, and that the voice we hear in her streams as Amelia Watson is nothing like what her actual everyday voice sounds like. That, and the other information I learned about the real person behind Amelia just got me completely disenchanted.

I have since found out just about everything there is to know about the other 4 EN girls, and it hasn't really had any negative effect on my perception of them. It's just a bit sad that my absolute favorite vtuber and really one of my favorite overall streamers ever went from my favorite hololive EN to my least favorite. You can call me weak or hypocritical, but it just feels like with Ame, kind of unlike anyone else, I was being deceived. Maybe I was placing unfair or unrealistic expectations on her, but it is what it is. I'm well aware that there are other hololive members out there who are not as young as me, but the way they carry themselves still doesn't feel like they're actively deceiving me the way I felt with Ame. I'm sure a lot what I just described is something that would draw immense ridicule and cringe from people all over the internet, possibly even here. I guess you could say I'm in a stage of recovery from my unhealthy obsession and figuring out how to move forward. This is not to say that such issues are widespread. I do not accuse other fans of hololive or vtubers in general of being like me. In fact I would be quite confident that the vast majority are nothing like me. As with anything, it has its morons, but overall I think the vtuber community is a pretty good one. I'll still be watching, just maybe not very much Watson in the near future. Well that ended up not being very brief at all but yeah, just be aware of what you're getting yourself into here lol.

I logged in just to give that an autistic rating.
Here's a tip: Once you're writing paragraphs about personal anecdotes you should really consider if you should post that on a gossip forum notorious for doxing and laughing at people who tell a little bit too much about themselves.

 

[Least Concern]

I'ma be honest that's pretty autistic even for the farms.

I think the tl;dr was "don't meet your heroes," which is definitely a good lesson to learn, but yeah.

 

[Gravemind]

I logged in just to give that an autistic rating.
Here's a tip: Once you're writing paragraphs about personal anecdotes you should really consider if you should post that on a gossip forum notorious for doxing and laughing at people who tell a little bit too much about themselves.

The newfags don't seem to grasp the purpose of the Farms.

The dangers of making the kayfabe breaks and potential dox accessible through a medium such as this isn't a concern here and it shouldn't ever become a concern. What people choose to do with that information is on the individual. Will people use it for ill? Most likely. But the individuals who share the information here are not under any responsibility to prevent that from happening, neither is anyone here responsible for brigading against, or even in the defense of, anyone whose information is leaked here.

Sensitive information is saved here purely for posterity and, predominantly, for the inherent entertainment value involved in knowing the skeletons that lurk in peoples' closets, especially with how those same skeletons might (and often does, both subtly and blatantly) affect a public figure's conduct. All discussion that takes place in the meantime is secondary to that purpose. And one of the biggest lessons that would behoove you to take to heart when posting here is never to volunteer too much information about yourself, unless you're willing to get your own identity potentially outed and laughed right out the door yourself.

 

[JuliusCaesar]

To be frank, if you're a grown ass adult caught offguard and surprised by the fact that someone playing a bubbly anime character might not actually act like a bubbly anime character in real life, you're either terribly naive or a dumbass.

 

[Potatohead]

I honestly still can't say I'm 100% sure, but I am fairly convinced that it was indeed her, and that the voice we hear in her streams as Amelia Watson is nothing like what her actual everyday voice sounds like. That, and the other information I learned about the real person behind Amelia just got me completely disenchanted.

Sounds like you got filtered, friendo.

 

[The One And Only SALTE]

American EEO laws don't really apply to entertainers though. Title VII of the Civil Rights Act has an affirmative defense clause baked in ("Bona Fide Occupational Qualifications") which permits sex discrimination if the job you're hiring for absolutely requires a certain sex (or even race). My thinking is that Cover didn't really know what they wanted to do with EN until after they started reviewing auditions.

Color me wrong then, but that was my assumption based off their second recruitment pull to get EN AZki aka the Vsinger audition. They specifically said "men who can sound female" to that effect, and I had to guess that meant they were forced to let guys audition. That said, some of the girls such as Towa already have a very deep almost masculine voice when not performing.

Hey been lurking for a good while but since shit might be going down anytime I wanted to say kudos for the conversation. This is my main thread on KF now, everything else died down or been dying. 2020 was hell of a shit year but glad we got em chuubas exploding, it's been a fun ride so far and im looking forward for what's to come.

to make it relevant, here's my fav tidbit of all time

I came here because of DSP and when he stopped being interesting (the most interesting thing to happen to that fucker recently is the court date on the foreclosure) I sought entertainment elsewhere and then discovered the Farms had a thread on vtubers. Came here expecting y'all to shit on them and was surprised that some things can be too wholesome for you lot. Either way I'm glad I'm a part of this community even if I am past my days of being a complete shitter.

People is more amused that she is going to go day 1 with Cyberpunk 2077, so that means the deal with the witcher was for the entire library of CDPR, im expecting she breaking 70k viewers and people laughing about how she gets more money than DSP

They're kind of thr same person though.

To be frank, if you're a grown ass adult caught offguard and surprised by the fact that someone playing a bubbly anime character might not actually act like a bubbly anime character in real life, you're either terribly naive or a dumbass.

Some play their characters pretty close to home. Coco in real life is apparently pretty fucking quiet as opposed to her on screen activities but Matsuri supposedly is just as bubbly as her on screen persona. Those types are rare but they do exist; the only others that come to mind off the top of my head are Korone and Roberu. Both of them are just happy to be there and I don't really think they're putting on much of an act.

On the other hand, some like Polka openly admit it's an act and that she just plays the part of the clown because she wants to make people laugh. She's actually kind of a textbook definition of a sad clown in that regard.

 

[Wingnut]

Polka doing her best to teach us overseas bros some Japanese.

 

[LOWERCASE LETTERS]

https://youtu.be/qJzGZu96RBg

These two are hilarious together

 

[Mister O.]

Migration is one of the reasons I stopped lurking here and decided to finally make an account. This is the ONLY place I've found where 1) the majority of contributors post in good faith, 2) want to actually discuss things on a deeper level, 3) are supportive yet realistic. I'd like to help in any way I can.

Yeah, this thread is very adult and intelligent a vast majority of the time, it's refreshing to get away here so you don't have to worry about hugboxes like Reddit or 'official' Discord servers, but also not have a chimp-out shitfest like the 'chan threads.

Polka doing her best to teach us overseas bros some Japanese.

I just closed out the link to this video before coming over here. I love Polka so goddamn much lol. She posted that same phrase on Twitter the other day and I thought it was pretty clever.

Also, some folks a few pages back were talking about Ollie's BGM, and I agree it's a banger, one of the best out of any Holomen. Got me curious though, whose BGMs do y'all like the best? In addition to Ollie's, I have a personal affinity for Botan's, Aqua's, Polka's, and Pekora's. The rabbit's BGM sounds like some kind of insane brainwashing song, frankly. There may be more but it's hard to remember what exactly they all sound like, and the fact that some of them have several songs they use based on what they're doing - gaming, zatsudan, spacha reading, etc.