2020 U.S. Presidential Election - Took place November 3, 2020. Former U.S. Vice President Joe Biden assumed office January 20, 2021.

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This may be a difference of one's perspective - I'm in a more liberal area, so I saw many many people who were certain and convinced that Trump was not legitimately the president. The Mueller report falling through and impeachment being a plainly political exercise did not dissuade them, and they are not a small amount of people. To this day they'll say that Hillary was the rightful president, and that something unconstitutional (though they can't explain precisely what) happened to get in cheetos don.

By contrast, all legal bodies concerned acknowledge that Trump was the legitimate president, as no fraud (or other disqualifying) claims were sustained. In the end, this is more the angle that I am arguing from than the angle of popular opinion.
If I might suggest a middle ground, and I did say I could argue for either, I would say the 2016 holds General Consensus rather than Common Consensus.

Common Consensus is a near universal acceptance, General Acceptance says that more people than not agree.

Though I do not think this election can even rise to that level. While polling analysis is lacking here, what we do have is over 50% saying outright they believe fraud to occur or that they are not sure. Consensus only considers a Positive rather than Negative or Neutral response.
 
Let's circle back around here.

The point I was originally making is that "there is no fraud" is the default assumption, which I expanded to default legal assumption. You said that, no, the default legal assumption is nothing. Fair. You also assert that technically, every single US election is in this "nothing can be concluded zone."

Functionally, what happens when you can't substantiate "there was fraud" is that, by common consensus, "there is no fraud" is assumed to be true. And every single US election has, by common consensus, come to be seen as not having fraud when none was proven to be there. So for all intents and purposes, the assumption -is- by common consensus that there was no fraud.

I call it semantic because in a legal sense, sure, it's all, like, nothing. In practical life and use, it may as well be that "there is no fraud" is the default assumption.
There is a problem.

the way I see, the Elections have no presumption of innocence for a simple reason, it's not supposed be ran on blind trust but they are rather supposed to run on full transparency.

the voters have every single right to full disclosure of laws, chain of custody documents, coherent counts, ever present observers and audits, the elections don't belong to an governor or to an AG, they belong to the people, and they are not given a single reason to believe they are run in a fair way if transparency is being denied at every step.

I don't trust elections are run in a fair way, I demand that I have full access to my representatives, I demand that data is made public, I demand that documents are shown and kept, I demand that counts are balanced before certification, I demand laws were followed and I demand an audit if none of that is true, its a right, not a courtesy, officials the executive branch and the state judiciary did everything they coud to deny that transparency to their voters, and they deserve to be punished by law for that.

by the moment my observers are denied observation, the election is not transparent, the moment counting stops and there are no documents of the custody of the late arriving ballots, the election is not transparent, the moment audits are denied and certification rushed the elections are not transparent.

The Government has the burden of proving that the process can be trusted, and because there has been no transparency, there was no observation, no chain of custody, no audits, all the actions taken so far more than show they cannot guarantee the integrity of these results, if they don't trust it, then why should us?

So no, you don't have to prove an election run like that is fraudulent, they are the ones that have to prove that despites the mountains of irregularities and broken laws, despites the illegal manuevers in legislation, despites the wrongful management of observers, despites the mathematically miraculous results and poll books that don't close, they have to prove the elections were not fraudulent.

"Dude Trust me lmao" is not how you have any kind of election. no transparency means no legitimacy for at least half the country, andI tell you they are doing a hell of an effort be the least transparent as possible, there are laws agaisnt what happened and the time to enforce them has come fast enough, so there might be precedent to prevent that from happening ever again.

The momment you deny transparency is when you delegitimate the process.
 
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If I might suggest a middle ground, and I did say I could argue for either, I would say the 2016 holds General Consensus rather than Common Consensus.

Common Consensus is a near universal acceptance, General Acceptance says that more people than not agree.

Though I do not think this election can even rise to that level. While polling analysis is lacking here, what we do have is over 50% saying outright they believe fraud to occur or that they are not sure. Consensus only considers a Positive rather than Negative or Neutral response.

At current, yeah, you definitely wouldn't reach that metric of General Acceptance.

It remains to be seen if time will shift belief, or if investigations' conclusions (or lack thereof) will do so; I personally expect a lot of audits and investigations well after the electoral college votes regardless, so how things look in terms of what people broadly believe and accept in 2021 is something of an open question.

DtoDab said:
I don't trust elections are run in a fair way, I demand that I have full access to my representatives, I demand that data is made public, I demand that documents are shown and kept, I demand that counts are balanced before certification, I demand laws were followed and I demand an audit if none of that is true, its a right, not a courtesy, officials the executive branch and the state judiciary did everything they coud to deny that transparency to their voters, and they deserve to be punished by law for that.

You can FOIA and write to the relevant officials to demand all of that. Legally, it's not a right just because you say it is; if it was, you would both already have full access to the information and the law itself which grants you access. Now, bear in mind, I'd generally prefer this myself.

But while you have asserted irregularities and made claims of things to that end, outside of the one GA case, you have yet to legally substantiate any of them. For example, the whole observers not being allowed to observe - has failed to be sustained anywhere. The closest is that the laws on the books for observation weren't great, but the challenges should have been made prior to the election regarding those regulations. Just getting an affidavit that "it happened" is not substantiation.
 
Spend about 15 minutes with your average urban nigger and you will find out why they live in shit.

Systemic racism, obviously.

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Since it's such a nothingburger why do the feds try to intervene with legal blackmail. Since it's such a nothingburger why do state legislatures release statements that are ambiguous as to whether they cheated or not instead of outright denying. If it's such a nothingburger why did they get caught with their dick in the cookie jar changing election laws to coincidentally enable all "this". What now shills ?
When you really hold a liberals' balls to the fire on all their shenanigans, it's always some form of "it's okay when we do it, because we do it in the name lf Our Democracy™️" To them, the ends justify the means.
 
At current, yeah, you definitely wouldn't reach that metric of General Acceptance.

It remains to be seen if time will shift belief, or if investigations' conclusions (or lack thereof) will do so; I personally expect a lot of audits and investigations well after the electoral college votes regardless, so how things look in terms of what people broadly believe and accept in 2021 is something of an open question.
And I would agree! But this lack of consensus is why dispute means that it cannot be considered a base assumption that there was not fraud.

I would note, I personally would be willing to accept if a full and transparent investigation found nothing that I am wrong about my own assumptions.
 
The Supreme Court really should take this case up. It raises legitimate questions about the Electors Clause and is now seen by the nation as THE lawsuit addressing this election. I'm honestly not sure why the Dems in this thread are shitting on it so much, because you'd think that they'd want all the litigation definitively put to bed so that there's absolutely no rhetorical cover for the Trump die-hards to insist that there's still a chance. Why would the Biden supporters not want that kind of victory if they're so smug about how weak the case is?
They can't acknowledge that Trump could be right or that the States could be right, because that would destroy them. And they've also just spent so long defending them, that'd it make the past month of going "cope and seethe" useless.
 
This may be a difference of one's perspective - I'm in a more liberal area, so I saw many many people who were certain and convinced that Trump was not legitimately the president. The Mueller report falling through and impeachment being a plainly political exercise did not dissuade them, and they are not a small amount of people. To this day they'll say that Hillary was the rightful president, and that something unconstitutional (though they can't explain precisely what) happened to get in cheetos don.

By contrast, all legal bodies concerned acknowledge that Trump was the legitimate president, as no fraud (or other disqualifying) claims were sustained. In the end, this is more the angle that I am arguing from than the angle of popular opinion.
I hate to interject, but I would point out although Trump won, and most on the left do not understand the electoral college (to bring up the liberal area concept) Trump himself believed there may have been fraudulent elements in the election even if not on his behalf. So even if Trump won and not due to fraud in any way, I think what is conflated or misunderstood is people believe fraud still happened in 2016, just not by Russians and not on behalf of Trump. That same concept that Trump pushed and claimed in 2016 is how most people view most elections to some degree. It's just that people were looking for fraud on behalf of the wrong candidate and in the wrong places.

Basically there's a lot more nuance to the claims of fraud in many elections or in this case 2016. It's why people pushed for stricter voting laws, but bupkis happened in regards to the claims. Whether true or untrue (and if true to whatever vague extent)
 
When you really hold a liberals' balls to the fire on all their shenanigans, it's always some form of "it's okay when we do it, because we do it in the name lf Our Democracy™️" To them, the ends justify the means.

In the bubble, the radical left would convince the others that they needed to cheat because the only way the right could ever win is because they must be cheating -- since no one would EVER disagree with a leftist. The only way a leftist could lose an election is because the right cheated, ergo it was ok to cheat to make things "fair."
 
And I would agree! But this lack of consensus is why dispute means that it cannot be considered a base assumption that there was not fraud.

I would note, I personally would be willing to accept if a full and transparent investigation found nothing that I am wrong about my own assumptions.
I am personally not as concerned with the general population's lack of consensus, and generally find myself more interested in the belief of the various government entities that can influence elections and so-on. I suppose most of my arguments should be taken in that regard - the government entities have thusfar operated as if the base assumption was that there is not fraud; individuals broadly do not always operate as if such base assumption were there.

I've basically just been frustrated that the fraud claims have tended to evaporate or chase their tail after a single explanation thusfar. It's why the GA case is interesting - they seem to have actually gone somewhere and maybe even found something that could flip that state. If there were more cases that moved like the GA one, I'd overall give more personal belief to that aisle.

I hate to interject, but I would point out although Trump won, and most on the left do not understand the electoral college (to bring up the liberal area concept) Trump himself believed there may have been fraudulent elements in the election even if not on his behalf. So even if Trump won and not due to fraud in any way, I think what is conflated or misunderstood is people believe fraud still happened in 2016, just not by Russians and not on behalf of Trump. That same concept that Trump pushed and claimed in 2016 is how most people view most elections to some degree. It's just that people were looking for fraud on behalf of the wrong candidate and in the wrong places.

Basically there's a lot more nuance to the claims of fraud in many elections or in this case 2016. It's why people pushed for stricter voting laws, but bupkis happened in regards to the claims. Whether true or untrue (and if true to whatever vague extent)
There's a lot of notions and belief, but in terms of substantiated claims, there's not much from that time. Bear in mind, the US electoral system is generally stupid and somehow behind Brazil, so it isn't like there isn't a lot that could be fixed up. But one month out from election, all political will seems to evaporate.
 
So the Left has really bought into the "The Republican party is a crime syndicate and will be mass-arrested Mafia-style any second now" narrative?
They already have. People were genuinely expecting Biden to have the Secret Service drag Trump out of the White House in handcuffs because he would refuse to leave.
 
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