Finally, someone who said it! As much as I like shitting on trannies as the next person, I can't really understand the sentiment here of "FtM are so easy to clock, bro! Just look at the hips and brow!". Maybe it's because I'm female, but I have a hard time actually telling apart most of these FtMs when they actually try (no, I'm not talking about the 14 year old aidens or the ones who only wear tuxes and queer pins). Even when you point out some of the feminine features on some of the more passable ones, I just don't see how you'd detect that in every day life. Maybe I'm autistic?
Depends on what you'd call 'pass', I guess. Passing troons as in, you see them walk past you on the street or at the event you go to one time and didn't take a greater look then passing is not uncommon. But if you're interacting with them closely everyday it is going to be pretty noticeable eventually. Like @OttoWest said, I'd say that troon detection started from the feeling that something is 'off' that is not conscious reaction, to me, in some occasion.. the radar is wrong but after the closer inspection after the radar lead me, it can be pretty clear if that's a troon or not.
Social conception of gender is also important : There's a doctor in Victorian time who's a woman but posed as a man to be a doctor for the whole of her career, that was without T and all, people noticed her high-pitched voice and appearance and thought she was an intersex.., because of the social standard at the time taught what to look for to discern sex. Now today, women who wears traditionally men's clothes are readily seen as female unquestionably. As transgenderism became more and more proliferated, people will slowly build their visual library what to look for to clock troons. FtM used to be relatively rare and since we currently readily associated characteristics such as facial hair and voice under a certain pitch as being male... so they pass easily now - but in the near future, I think it'll be similar how what passed as 'men' in Victorian era doesn't work in modern day anymore. People will just learn to see them as women again eventually. (My pet theory : the increasing existence of detransitioners and.. perhaps bodybuilding women who are on gear will sped up that process).
And I do think that skills sets and professions matters too - And I think some people are very perceptive when it comes to visual information.
Not only does she have an hourglass figure, but the skull size is what really hammers it down. Look at the short and slight Asian man standing next to her. Even though he's shorter, his skull is still markedly longer, wider and more robust than the FTM skull. Plus look at those T-Rex arms. MTF's have orangutan arms that immediately make them stand out when placed next to a real woman, and the inverse is obviously true for FTM.
Funnily this is something I noticed before about genetic male with Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome which I brought up a while back - If you compare them with normal female... they tend to have noticably more elongated limbs, more robust skull shape and 'boyish' body proportion on average. These characteristics developed even the body can't utilise testosterone and doesn't developed a dick. Just something to think about.
It's gotta wreck them mentally. Trooning out is like a monkey's paw wish. They get everything but the one thing they want the most: to be genuinely desired and accepted. You'll get a thousand likes on social media, you'll have everyone telling you how brave and stunning you are, you'll be really hard to fire from your job, you'll have the power to destroy people's lives with an accusation of transphobia, but something will still be missing.
A lot of the people who go trans are doing it because they don't like themselves and feel that no one else does either, and they figure the grass is greener on the other side of the fence. It's only when they get there that they notice how off-putting they are to other people, how even the wokest of their friends politely smile when they're around and forget to answer their texts. They get upvotes but none of their Internet supporters ever want to hang out in real life, they can get someone fired but they can't get a date.
The only friends they have left will be the ones sharing their madness, who they keep reassuring that they're beautiful and valid even as they make excuses for why they don't want to go out with them. And if they think a bit about why they don't want to date their trans friends they realize why no one wants them either, and at that point the only way out is to detransition and lose their remaining social network or join the 41%.
Finally, someone who said it! As much as I like shitting on trannies as the next person, I can't really understand the sentiment here of "FtM are so easy to clock, bro! Just look at the hips and brow!". Maybe it's because I'm female, but I have a hard time actually telling apart most of these FtMs when they actually try (no, I'm not talking about the 14 year old aidens or the ones who only wear tuxes and queer pins). Even when you point out some of the feminine features on some of the more passable ones, I just don't see how you'd detect that in every day life. Maybe I'm autistic?
This tranny's popularity has crossed borders and my obsessive woke friends are talking about him which got me interested so I went sniffing and he has a reddit account where he posts "sissy" thirst traps
There is an entire subreddit dedicated to Indian trannies, the depths of which I shall not plumb.
A little off-topic, and also a tangential reply to @Crunchy Leaf post about social hierarchy, it's a little of my personal pet peeves here.
I largely agree with you here in general - and based on that certain girl we're currently talking about here in particular, she has a strong autistic vibe based on her description of the confusion of social expectations and sensory issues seem spot on. But seeing how a lot of people act towards this topic right now, We should be wary of seeing things in ASD lenses too much, and inadvertently cause a 'symptom pool' phenomenon just like how everything is written off as gender dysphoria today where people are not getting adequate help. Sometimes people are just weird or dorky, or having a lot of emotional baggage that they couldn't become socially adept in their youth.
A lot of talk about autism today does feel like egg_irl to me at times. We've got evangelical autists who seem to want to groom people into thinking that any nerdiness or social awkwardness are always a result of autism (Neurodiversity movement) - Eg. the reddit hellhole of r/aspergers, you'll see how people there think that any inconveniences are seen as autistic traits/DAE threads. I believe this is likely because they have limited theory of mind and thus less likely to understand that people could be many different reasons why someone is socially awkward, troubled, and not a 'stereotypically chad' that isn't just autism. I recently argued with an autist who thought that having low self-esteem from rough upbringing, and having conflicted rebelling-pleasing tedencies to authority figures means you're an autist... even if you don't have any other ASD traits... I wish I could make this up
This is largely based on my experiences, I've known a lot of people who were misdiagnosed with autism as children as well as psychologists who are concerned with this issue. It can limit a lot of people opportunities and make things worse
These children were misdiagnosed because they're difficult to deal with in school and struggled socially but they barely fit into the 'thought process' profile of ASD to begin with. Tend to be seen as paradoxically very high-functioning except but does not respond well to autism-based treatments, their behaviours tend to deviate a lot from autism profile more and more as they grew older and tend to not be qualified for a diagnosis if assessed at older age.
Many of these children were severely abused and traumatised and their inappropriate ASD diagnoses were a reflection of their parents are purposefully covering abuses so it has never slipped into the factor of assessment, the diagnosis were 'forced' on them because it is an easy way to get extra education services or benefits or it is simply because the assessor were inexperienced and made a genuine mistake. (eg. https://www.reddit.com/r/LifeAdvice/comments/k9ihh9/parents_finally_told_me_i_wasnt_autistic_after/)
As with my old post - I see current autism label as simply a 'working model' for treatment that isn't yet precise. Though I entertain the idea that there might be a certain mental process that is characteristics of 'true autism'. My opinion is that it is stemmed from inborn sensory process, a certain type of rigid/'algorithmic' thinking, a deficit in context-understanding and nuance which results in a lot of social issues. This can present in the way that doesn't cause visibly enough problems, and they can adapt enough to be a useful member in society. But at the same time there can be many other ways people can be weird and socially maladjusted without the autistic thought-process at all. It's also very common for
people to have a few low-level autistic traits but not enough to warrant a diagnosis.
I pretty much entirely agree with you, though I don't think the comparison with /r/aspergers or /r/egg_irl is quite fair. I do think about it constantly and ask myself whether I am at risk of falling down the confirmation bias hole.
I also think that it's important to always remember that it is only meaningful to describe someone as having ASD if there's a plethora of coincidental different features. There is no sense in suggesting ASD, if all the signs are all down a single axis, e.g. not having friends, a girlfriend and being a virgin are all similar and highly correlated independent of any autism. Something like that can be just as labelled as 'socially awkward/inept' or something like. Slapping the autism label on it doesn't offer any real explanation or practical benefit and as @Crunchy Leaf points out, it can be actively harmful.
The Ayla/'Alan' girl is interesting in part because she has a whole set of orthogonal signs including sensory issues (clothing as a child, aversion to touch), social issues (highly introverted*, anxiety), identity issues (uncertain sense of self, highly conscious sense of wearing a mask, trooning out) and sexual issues (sex aversion, uncertainty over what 'sexual attraction' is, inability to discern targets of sexual attraction). It's the combination of signs that makes autism seem likely.
Additionally, she impresses me as someone who would actually benefit from having the label since she is actively looking for explanation regarding her feelings and sexuality which means there is probably some very real practical benefit. Especially, if it helps her get out of troondom (even if she shouldn't think of it like that, or of autism as a totalizing replacement for 'gender dysphoria' for that matter).
*There was a post I didn't screencap which she subsequently deleted in which she elaborated on how she'd always been markedly introverted.
It encourages people to see their awkwardness as an innate part of themselves, and not something that can be worked through. I see autistic advocates online saying you shouldn’t try to change your autistic traits.
Same with all the talk about masking — we all wear a mask in different social situations! Nobody is their ‘real self’ at the alumni networking event. True autists don’t understand why social niceties are good, and they try to convince people that, say, there’s no need for small talk. But this will have a serious effect on your career and personal life, so it concerns me when I see people get sucked into the autism advocacy world.
I think a key point that probably does get lost when people talk about 'masking' in autism and the likes is that it isn't just a case of having different selves or even imitating others. But, rather it's about intellectualizing or rehearsing it heavily alongside not understanding - at least instinctively - why you should do something. Furthermore, there is a common view that you'll hear about how it means people "can't tell" or something, but that's not true. You can tell, it's just that it's a bit like troons and passing; you look at a 'Zeke' and think "this fella looks bit odd," but absent the requisite knowledge you don't necessarily end up adding the "because she's female." It's the same with "masking" in autistic girls, they give away signs like being unusually stereotyped or rigid in their mannerisms or speech. For example, they learn that you should react a certain way when people tell them good news and then they react in exactly that way to all good news. This will come off as being odd or maybe insincere, but again you don't think 'autism.'
If you forget this caveat, then 'masking' just becomes an excuse to exempt yourself from ever having to display any particular behavioral pattern. This renders your supposed autism entirely subjective and impervious to criticism.
Of course, that's precisely what's going to happen on reddit/tumblr etc.. You can then combine that with the "you don't need to be/show/have X to be Y!!!" type rubbish, a sentiment which forgets that if you don't show/have/be X then you ought at least show/have/be at least Z, W, U and V. Thus allowing anyone who is positively disposed towards labeling themselves as 'neurodiverse' or autistic the license to do so. Hell, you can even get yourself formally diagnosed, since you can just project yourself into the diagnostic criteria then borrow its language (without even thinking about it) so that any psychologist who wants for a bit of skepticism will be happy to give you the desired diagnosis. And if they don't? It's because they're just behind the times or narrow-minded or whatever, so you should just go see another one, maybe the one your penpal on tumblr got her diagnosis from.
It can be an issue even amongst more reponsible activists or clinicians, where they can get too caught up with the problem of underdiagnosis that they destroy all diagnostic rigor. It's probably unavoidable, you can't help but assume that what was good for you must be good everyone.
But I'm willing to believe there are a few that genuinely pass: almost all of them FtM. A short man with a patchy beard and a dumpy body is pretty much invisible. A tall woman with huge hands and shoulders is hard to miss.
I think it all depends on what people define as "passing" - in the sense of "not drawing too much attention to themselves when they're out" there's a few that "pass" as such. They might "pass" to people who also have no experience with trans people. However, "passing" as in terms of "wow I never would've guessed"? No, they tend to reveal themselves if by nothing else but mannerisms. I do think there's a point with a lot of straight men not being that observant with subtle body language though.'
I think it all depends on what people define as "passing" - in the sense of "not drawing too much attention to themselves when they're out" there's a few that "pass" as such. They might "pass" to people who also have no experience with trans people. However, "passing" as in terms of "wow I never would've guessed"? No, they tend to reveal themselves if by nothing else but mannerisms. I do think there's a point with a lot of straight men not being that observant with subtle body language though.
Agreed. No one has ever met a troon and said “Wow, this whole time I never knew! You sure had me fooled!” Unless it’s out of fear or kindness. People are stupid, but they’re usually not that stupid.
However, I can understand it more if they had used puberty blockers. The more masculine features and deepening of the voice, if they’re men, will not occur.
Regardless, as you’ve said, there are certain socialized behaviors and mannerisms you can clock if you’ve seen it enough. Rendering even puberty blockers pointless as we learn to read into social cues and body language.
They can attempt to hide these, but even then, certain behaviors will subconsciously slip through. Simply put, it’s impossible to fool everyone.
EDIT: I should read more than just the 3 latest posts. I see others have said this better.
so do y'all know Sam Collins? I think she's the only trans person I've seen so far who my brain genuinely sees as male (she's FtM)
like, I'm trying to see a female in there.. but idk... sometimes I see something feminine in her face but I found this vid of her before transition and goddamn that's the most masculine girl I've seen? Like how tf did she have such a low voice before T?
I'm into feminine women, but I will say I think she was actually cute at that timestamp - in a tomboy sort of way. Much worse as a "dude" at the end of the video. But I HATE that pubescent male sounding voice.
She reminds me as being almost identical to Elliot Fletcher XX who plays the token trans role on every woke show. She was on "Faking It" a tv show that based its premise around two girls pretending to be lesbians in woke Texas (but one realises she is actually a lesbian). it went to shit by the end of the first season when the lesbian character slept with a dude and then decided lesbians are evil and it's only okay to be non-labels pansexual. Elliot came in season 3 to teach the flaming faggot a lesson that YES YOU HAVE TO LICK PUSSY YOU TRANSPHOBE. The gay dude saw the light and bowed down to Elliot's bussy.
I get posts from r/transgender_surgeries recommended to me. Here's a passing beautiful trans woman that can stealth. Really! They said it, it must be true. Especially because of the user name.
I don't know why, but I found this unreasonably funny. Mr. "Knife-emoje my dick off, Momma's making a new hole", of all people, expresses a bit more sanity than the average twitter troon. He refuses to jump onboard the cis-scum hate bandwaggon, and correctly identifying those who do as complete psychos
More tweets:
Maybe you should listen to that supposedly "dumb" part of your brain. Your "inner transphobe" is probably trying to tell you something. Is he having serious doubts about transitioning?
Oh wait, nevermind, we're back to the coomer insanity
Agreed. No one has ever met a troon and said “Wow, this whole time I never knew! You sure had me fooled!” Unless it’s out of fear or kindness. People are stupid, but they’re usually not that stupid.
I think their ideas of "passing" is where troons often being autistic comes in. They think that any social encounter where the other person didn't say "hey, are you a MAN?" means they've "passed".
They're so oblivious to social norms that the idea someone would notice but choose not to say anything (which is going to be the normal reaction in most daily situations) doesn't occur to them.
Think of it that way and their claims of passing "all the time" make sense.
IME, absolutely zero trans-identified males pass in public, at least not to women. There are about five zillion different giveaways: Height, body size generally, hand/foot size, facial features, shoulder breadth, voice, general body language... Trans-identified females have a better chance because testosterone is insane in what it does to a woman's body, but there are still tell-tale signs: Height, body shape/size, hips, voice, body language, etc. It's not really that hard to tell.
Arm tattoos. Always with the arm tattoos. "Tattoos on arms are masculine, right? I should definitely etch that shit onto my spindly flappers. That'll really sell the costume."
Yeah, but OP invoked the toupee fallacy to suggest that we are constantly surrounded by elegantly passing troons and nobody is the wiser...that is definitely made up by troons on the internet. View attachment 1876390
Yeah if it weren’t for the fact that every single troon making this claim imagines he himself is an elegantly passing troon who has flown under many a TERF radar and every single one of them is clearly a man tells you all you need to know.
Is it theoretically possible that somewhere out there a young short slim homosexual male has managed to trick himself out to the point that combined with his palpable and very gay male lack of sexual interest in females of any age he does not emanate sexually threatening energy and thus in a female space where no one is speaking females don’t take a second look at him? Sure. Janet Mock exists and I’m quite confident that a young silent Janet Mock would not have gained my notice. If he spoke, then I would take a second look, of course.
But not being female these heterosexual AGPs just dont get that we can FEEL male sexual energy and when we feel it in an enclosed space where we’re supposed to be able to perform intimate acts of feminine self-maintenance without exposing ourselves or those acts to males who are sexually interested in females, we feel it even MORE, because it’s a threat at that point. You cannot alter hundreds of thousands of years of male/female sexual dynamics. We don’t JUST clock you because of your appearance, smell, voice, manner of movement, and way of looking AT us. The gestalt of all these things has an energy that we have evolved to feel and respond to.
And in this context - you are a whole ass heterosexual male stranger with multiple mental illnesses and personality disorders, anger issues, tremendous hatred/desire for us in particular, poor impulse control and a portfolio of pretty much every unpleasant psychological and personality trait in existence in addition to a hyperfocus on forcing intimate access to us despite and in fact often because of our discomfort and over our protests (which is *sadistic* as only a sadist gets off on other people’s fear) as your #1 social and political priority in life - the energy you are emanating is predatory and we respond with fear and horror. You are a sadist who enjoys our fear. That is why we are afraid. Because we can tell you *enjoy our fear* and want us to feel it even more. We feel threatened because you are a threat. No man who fights THIS HARD for access to us at all times and is entirely dedicated to trapping us (and our female children) with no means of escape is TERRIFYING. If you were not a threat you would not agitate for access to us that precludes us from defending ourselves from you. Instead what you want is to talk to 11-yo girls about tampons in an enclosed space she cannot escape from and where no normal men can see what you’re up to and intervene.
And this is aside from the data we have based upon our observations of your lunatic internet rants which are not outliers but truly representative of your community. You threaten us and you threaten our children with the worst sort of violence and mutilation and murder, and you encourage and applaud each other for doing so. We could feel your predatory energy even if we had no knowledge of your threats.
I get posts from r/transgender_surgeries recommended to me. Here's a passing beautiful trans woman that can stealth. Really! They said it, it must be true. Especially because of the user name.
Arm tattoos. Always with the arm tattoos. "Tattoos on arms are masculine, right? I should definitely etch that shit onto my spindly flappers. That'll really sell the costume."
is it just me or is there also a thing with trans men starting to wear glasses? Like is there something inherently masculine about glasses that I've missed?
plus, immediately cutting their hair short (and wearing a lot of hoodies). Ok, but you could literally just be a woman with short hair, you know that right? But sure, this has nothing to do with stereotypes / shallow appearance aspects....
Arm tattoos. Always with the arm tattoos. "Tattoos on arms are masculine, right? I should definitely etch that shit onto my spindly flappers. That'll really sell the costume."
is it just me or is there also a thing with trans men starting to wear glasses? Like is there something inherently masculine about glasses that I've missed?
Glasses help change the shape of the face and make it squarer and wider (if you get the right frames). They can also mask the different eye sizes relative to the face between men and women. That's all.
plus, immediately cutting their hair short (and wearing a lot of hoodies). Ok, but you could literally just be a woman with short hair, you know that right? But sure, this has nothing to do with stereotypes / shallow appearance aspects....
Funnily this is something I noticed before about genetic male with Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome which I brought up a while back - If you compare them with normal female... they tend to have noticably more elongated limbs, more robust skull shape and 'boyish' body proportion on average. These characteristics developed even the body can't utilise testosterone and doesn't developed a dick. Just something to think about.
The thing with AIS, or other sorts of intersex folks is that the Y chromosome doesn’t necessarily “go bad” from the start. Embryonic limbs begin growing around week 5, with external genitalia not forming till around week 10 (https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-...k-by-week/in-depth/prenatal-care/art-20045302) so there is a long period of time where the embryo can be picking up testosterone signals before problems really arise and the X chromosome takes over. It can also be that these things differentiate during puberty in which case, I’m at a loss!
I think their ideas of "passing" is where troons often being autistic comes in. They think that any social encounter where the other person didn't say "hey, are you a MAN?" means they've "passed".
They're so oblivious to social norms that the idea someone would notice but choose not to say anything (which is going to be the normal reaction in most daily situations) doesn't occur to them.
Think of it that way and their claims of passing "all the time" make sense.
