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Dr. Kathy Rumer, DO / "The Butcher of Ardmore" / Rumer Gender Surgery / Rumer Cosmetic Surgery / Delaware Valley Aesthetics, PLLC - Sex-reassignment surgeon notorious for botched surgeries, constantly suing and being sued
A lot of entry level research associate positions are being gobbled up by master's degrees who went back to get that degree because they couldn't find anything, and these are positions paying anywhere from 22 to 30 dollars an hour with no real benefits in high cost of living areas. Even people with PhDs are struggling.
I spent a number of years doing biomedical research at a major university. I just had a bachelor's, but I have been published a number of times in some pretty dank journals. Looked for jobs in my city... all contract, mid-high 30's per year, and they were all being taken by retarded Masters' students and foreign PhDs--fuck that. I spent a year studying Finance, got my CFA I + II and within a month of looking, I found a job that paid mid 80s to start and way more now. I've never looked back.
It's a supersaturated field, and the problem with biology is that you don't have to be smart to get a biology degree; you just have to be able to memorize shit. You will be competing with people from India for 35 grand a year for the rest of your life, and that's if you manage to get a job after you decide to stay in school until you're 30 because "muh PhD".
Unless you know you can be a doctor, don't go into biology or biochemistry. Go for the shekels instead. You'll be happier and--more importantly--you'll be a lot wealthier. Sorry about the blog post, but if I can stop even one smart kid from ruining their life with a biology degree, it's worth the ban.
So how much of this is Rumer being really really bad at M2F surgery... and how much of it is Troons not realizing that no amount of magic can conjure up them a vagina?
Longtime Kiwi Farms users have seen their fair share of troon genital horrors, some of which are the handiwork of Dr. Kathy Lynn Rumer, a Philadelphia plastic surgeon who specializes in transgender and reconstructive surgery. As the readers of the SRS Surgeons thread know, Rumer's genital reconfiguration is often a unique brand of horrifying, which has led to a barrage of complaints and malpractice lawsuits against her. The sheer volume of horror stories warrants her own thread; per the screenshots and archived links, she appears to engage in genuinely sociopathic behavior, including canceling post-operative appointments unannounced when patients complain online about poor surgical outcomes.
In the video at around 3:03, Rumer says "in all of the surgeries that I've performed in over 10 years, we have not had a single patient with regret." After reading this thread, I bet Dr. Rumer might want to walk back that statement.
Background and Education
Dr. Rumer received a BS in Applied Mathematics from Ursinus College, class of 1984, studied Industrial Engineering in grad school at Penn State, then became a Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine at the Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine, class of 2000. Her board certification is in Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery. Per her profile at Crozer Health (a), "Dr. Rumer has been named “Top Doc” annually since 2008 by Main Line Today magazine, and “Top Doc” by Philadelphia Magazine, as voted by her peers. She was named “Surgical Intern of the Year” during her General Surgery Residency at PCOM, and ACOS’s “National Fellow of the Year” in her Plastic and Reconstructive Surgery Fellowship. She was the Chief Resident in both her General Surgery Residency and her Plastic Surgery Fellowship Programs at PCOM."
Her full resume is attached at the bottom of the thread.
Surgeries
Rumer is a staunch ally and supporter of the trans community. Despite alllegedly performing over 400(!) gender-related surgeries each year, Rumer's results often fail to live up to her promise of "natural appearing results that enhance and subtly refine the each individual’s best features." A large number of her patients, both MTF and FTM, have reported complications, from nipples falling off to all manner of eldritch stinkditch horrors.
The following spoilers are not safe for work and contain graphic images and descriptions of genitals and body horror. TransBucket does not archive, as everything is locked behind a login.
The following were taken from HealthGrades (a), where people rate medical professionals. While troons are notorious for not taking responsibility for their laziness, the sheer volume of stories that paint the same picture of Rumer would suggest she's callous and basically abandons her patients after operating on them.
Reddit also has tons of complaints about Rumer. She's notorious in the MTF community as a "butcher."
A mass of erectile tissue protruding from your stinkditch is "normal" according to Rumer: View attachment 1962495
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Rumer tells a patient to cut off necrotic "labia" tissue with scissors, then ignores other doctors' calls after the patient develops a serious infection: View attachment 1962645
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This patient details Rumer's "very nasty disposition" toward her:
Howard "Hannah" Simpson trooned out and had a vaginoplasty performed by Dr. Rumer in 2014. He claims the resulting stinkditch ruined his life, and other doctors were not able to successfully repair it. View attachment 1962480 View attachment 1962663
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It also appears Rumer's office attempts to astroturf her image by putting out glowing reviews. This one was immediately called out, as the account that posted it was brand new (and hasn't posted since): View attachment 1962582 View attachment 1962581
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Cow Crossover Jezebel Article
Rat King lolcow Kyle "Katelyn" Burns wrote a piece in Jezebel (a) about how Rumer is notorious for botched vaginoplasties. When people try to speak out against her online, the good doctor threatens to sue them for libel, and even threatened to add Burns and Jezebel to a libel suit. Complaints against Rumer with various professional associations are noted but never seem to be acted on.
Returning home from the movie back in Louisiana, Carlie took a closer look at her new vulva. While most two-week-old post-op vulvas won’t be pretty to look at, Carlie was alarmed when she found a “large, thumb-sized piece of dead skin kind of floating out of it,” she says. The next morning, she called the emergency number she had been given and sent an email to Dr. Rumer’s office. On Monday, the office suggested Carlie email photographs of the area of concern so the surgeon could take a look. A few days later, Carlie and her mother say they heard from the doctor, who was on vacation and told Carlie she shouldn’t be concerned. If it continued to hurt, her mother, a retired surgeon, could cut off the hanging skin, Dr. Rumer said.
The advice shocked both Carlie and her mother. She says her genitalia smelled “horrible” and her labia was hanging by a thin string of skin. A week after the conversation with Dr. Rumer, Carlie says she visited a local gynecologist, who was alarmed and brought Carlie to Oschner Baptist Hospital in New Orleans for emergency surgery. Part of Carlie’s vagina had been affected by necrotizing fasciitis, an infection that’s a risk in any surgery. Generally, it results in a loss of tissue in the infected area.
When they heard back from Dr. Rumer’s office—there had been an administrative mix-up with Carlie’s records—the surgeon was upset that Carlie hadn’t arranged to fly to Philadelphia to have the doctor fix the issue. According to Carlie and her mother, Dr. Rumer snapped at them in a phone call with Carlie’s mother: “I remember hearing it clear as day,” says Carlie, who could overhear the conversation. “Dr. Rumer goes, ‘I followed the WPATH guidelines on how to treat my patients. If you think you can do better, why don’t you just give her a vagina?’”
Many patients who go to Dr. Rumer for bottom surgery are happy with their results. But the people who are not satisfied with their surgeries, at the hands of Dr. Rumer or others, have found it difficult to have their complaints meaningfully addressed. In the highly politicized world of gender-affirming surgery, answers about standard measures of care can be hard to find. Advocates describe a patchwork of surgical practices and “transgender centers for excellence” overseen by local hospitals and state medical boards. Offices can vary widely when it comes to patient-to-doctor ratios and what kind of specialized training a surgeon receives.
When she posted about her experience with Dr. Rumer on message boards in an attempt to warn other potential patients, Carlie’s words were reprinted on anti-trans forums. A complaint she filed with the Pennsylvania Bureau of Professional and Occupational Affairs resulted in no formal action. Jezebel spoke to four others who say they experienced issues with surgeries performed by Dr. Rumer, ranging from allegations of poor post-operative care to construction of their vaginas that left them in significant pain or with vulvas that didn’t look anatomically correct. Additionally, since 2016 there have been four malpractice suits filed against the doctor over similar issues, all of which were eventually arbitrated out of court. In 2018, another group of trans people who saw her speak at a trans medical conference filed a complaint accusing the doctor of falsifying success rates, after which the Pennsylvania State Medical Board communicated with the surgeon but took no disciplinary action.
It seems likely Dr. Rumer would say, as she writes on her website and argued in court, that these complications are the result of poor adherence to her office’s postoperative directions, or are part of the reasonable risk of any surgery of this kind. But when Jezebel reached out to Dr. Rumer with a detailed list of questions and patient allegations, we heard back from a lawyer instead. In April, Dr. Rumer’s counsel attempted to subpoena me in an unrelated libel case, demanding I hand over “all notes, emails, documents and research” related to this story. Just prior to publication, Dr. Rumer again declined to comment and through her attorney threatened to add Jezebel to her pending libel suit.
Over the course of 2018, four former patients of the surgeon’s filed separate malpractice suits in Pennsylvania’s Eastern District court. Each was represented by the same law firm, and alleged that Dr. Rumer’s work had been so poorly done in their cases it required the plaintiffs, all residents of New York City, to undergo revision surgery at Mt. Sinai.
Each of the plaintiffs described strictures and damages to their urethras, vaginal cavities, and labias along with bulges or misshapen clitoral hoods, issues characterized as “permanent injury” such that the plaintiffs would “never have sexual function again.”
The suits described “humiliation” and “severe psychological trauma” as a result of Dr. Rumer’s work, and each originally demanded a jury trial but was eventually submitted for voluntary private arbitration. In one case, according to a pre-trial memo, attorneys intended to bring Dr. Jess Ting, a surgeon and medical school professor specializing in GRS at Mt. Sinai, to the stand. He was expected to testify that even after three surgical revisions, Dr. Rumer’s work left the plaintiff unable to “achieve orgasm or sexual satisfaction without pain,” among other significant issues including an “oversized clitoris without clitoral hood” and hair that hadn’t been properly removed.
In a pre-trial brief filed in late February, before the case was referred for arbitration, Dr. Rumer’s attorneys argued the surgeon was not negligent, hadn’t deviated from the standard of care and that the issues the patient experienced were “recognized complication of vaginoplasty.” The pleading also noted that the patient was “not employed at the time she was treated by Dr. Rumer” and that the 47-year-old hadn’t reported significant problems until more than a year after her surgery. The details of the arbitration proceedings and their outcomes are not public; none of the plaintiffs in the cases against Dr. Rumer’s practice returned multiple requests for an interview.
Jezebel reached out to several prominent gender surgeons to inquire into how many of Rumer’s former patients they had seen for revision procedures to fix her results. Most, understandably, declined to comment, but three who wished to remain anonymous had collectively seen more than 50 patients who had originally gone to Dr. Rumer for GRS since 2016.
“We all want greater access for trans persons seeking surgery and we do our best to educate and to facilitate better outcomes,” says Dr. Bowers, the San Francisco gender surgeon, but “Dr. Rumer falls short in some terrifying ways—blaming the patients for their surgical complications, anger and hostility towards those who complain, lack of availability or accountability.” Dr. Rumer, she adds, “also understands the vulnerability of patients who desperately desire surgery in a climate of still relatively few surgeons.”
Hannah Simpson, a 34-year-old trans woman from New York City, says that two weeks after she had GRS with Dr. Rumer in the summer of 2014, she noticed that her vulva was starting to look asymmetrical, with one part looking red and swollen. Despite Dr. Rumer’s insistence that everything was fine, Simpson developed necrosis of the vulva.
Simpson, who was studying medicine at the time, described her new vulva: a misshaped clitoris that was “off to the side” and a labia that “looked more like a lump than two flaps.” Simpson experienced other complications as well, including hair inside her vaginal canal that the surgeon had promised to remove, as well as odd placement of her urethra. Additionally, Simpson says that Dr. Rumer left excess tissue around the vaginal opening that made dilation extremely uncomfortable. In a follow-up appointment and then again in a subsequent email which Simpson shared with Jezebel, Dr. Rumer blamed the dead skin on a pair of too-tight Depends Simpson had worn in the hospital, which Simpson believes was a way to dodge the issue. Dr. Rumer declined to respond to Jezebel’s inquiries about her treatment of this or any of her other patients.
A revision procedure with a different surgeon was unsuccessful in repairing Dr. Rumer’s initial work, even causing additional issues, and Simpson was left without a clitoris. She has now consulted with, by her own count, 36 surgeons about fixing her genitalia. The experience has left her disillusioned with the medical profession and she is no longer pursuing a medical degree. She has not pursued any official avenues of complaint, worried that doing so would make it less likely that another surgeon would take on her case.
Simpson’s complaints about Dr. Rumer’s work are similar to those alleged by other former patients who spoke with Jezebel. “I’ve been warning people off Rumer as much as I can,” says Ember Rose, a 28-year-old non-binary person from Boston. They went to Dr. Rumer for bottom surgery in 2014 because the surgeon had the shortest wait time of all of the options presented by their parent’s insurance plan.
Rose’s surgery didn’t turn out as planned. “Rumer left a lot of erectile tissue under my labia minora, which can be a problem,” Rose says. “It doesn’t really look like a vulva.” Even other doctors, they say, will “end up at least once trying to stick a finger in my urethra because it’s not obvious.”
Rose says that Dr. Rumer didn’t construct a clitoral hood, leaving their clitoris completely exposed to irritation. Additionally, Rumer’s hair removal technique failed, leaving some hair growing just inside the labia, though not in the vaginal canal itself. “It kept accruing secretions and urine and got really smelly and I was scared of the thing for like the first year,” they say, “until I figured out there wasn’t supposed to be hair there.”
Rose says they’re still angry about their surgery six years later, and they’re concerned about Dr. Rumer operating on trans people. But they say that their frustration is also directed at the systemic issues surrounding procedures like these: The lack of doctors who perform GRS and the lengthy waiting lists that mean people like them have few options to choose from and not enough information when they go looking for a surgeon.
Such was allegedly the case for Dr. Rumer at the 2018 Philadelphia Trans Health Conference, where the doctor gave a presentation covering several surgeries for transmasculine people. According to a complaint submitted to the Pennsylvania State Medical Board and shared with Jezebel,Dr. Rumer allegedly claimed a 1 percent complication rate for fistula and stricture following urethral lengthening, one of the procedures commonly performed as part of phalloplasty, the surgery which creates a functional penis for transmasculine trans people.
According to several studies, the industry average for those complications range between 10 percent and 64 percent. The letter, which contained the corroborated accounts of several conference attendees, called into question the accuracy of Dr. Rumer’s miraculous claim. It also alleged Dr. Rumer used pictures of another surgeon’s results, claiming them as her own. When a person in attendance confronted her about the images, she allegedly replied, “you have a good memory, have a nice day.” After a nine-month investigation, the medical board “determined that the circumstances, in this case, do not permit formal prosecution,” as per a response to the complaint shared with Jezebel. The letter did say the office had “reminded Dr. Rumer about the duties and requirements” under state law and her local medical board.
Fear of expensive and time-consuming legal challenges based on patient testimonies are not unfounded: Dr. Rumer and her legal team directed letters to me questioning the “integrity of your inquiry and article,” declined to answer factual questions, and eventually served me a subpoena in an attempt to gain access to my reporting notes and sources. When Jezebel reached out to request an interview and offered a detailed summary of patient complaints in early 2020, an attorney wrote back suggesting we were conspiring with the unnamed author of a Blogspot site dedicated to “exposing” Dr. Rumer. Since 2016 the blog has intermittently posted figures in Guy Fawkes masks, the doctor’s home address, and linked to public reports about the surgeon’s work.
Jezebel was unaware of this website when we began working on this story and all of the people interviewed said they had no prior knowledge of the blog. After learning of its existence, Carlie joked that she’s a graphic designer by trade and if she had made the site it wouldn’t “look so shit.”
Dr. Rumer’s practice filed a libel suit against the anonymous owner of the website in February of this year, named in court documents as John or Jane Doe. On March 11, the surgeon’s attorney attempted to subpoena me based on an unfounded assumption that I was coordinating with this John or Jane Doe.
“The timing, content, and nature of your emails suggest you are likely working with this individual (either knowingly or unknowingly) in carrying out this defamatory campaign,” wrote Dr. Rumer’s attorney in an email on January 31. “I note that while you are a self-described ‘freelance journalist,’ you utilize the pronoun the plural pronoun ‘we’ (e.g. ‘we obtained,’ ‘we were hoping’) in your messages. I hope you can appreciate that from our perspective, these facts understandably lead to questions about the integrity of your inquiry and article.” (By the time I reached out to Rumer for comment, we had been working on versions of this story intermittently for over a year, and the “we” was clearly meant to refer to the reporter and Jezebel together, as is common practice.)
The subpoena originally asked me to appear at the office of Dr. Rumer’s attorney in Ardmore, Pennsylvania on April 2, but was subsequently canceled because of the coronavirus pandemic. The subpoena demanded I turn over “all notes, emails, documents and research” referencing Dr. Rumer or her practice. In late July, the presiding judge ordered Rumer’s legal team to show just cause to continue the case, considering the “failure to allege the citizenship” of the anonymous website owner since the complaint was filed in January. Dr. Rumer’s attorney, Lance Rogers, wrote in a status report on July 31 that his office had additionally subpoenaed Google, CloudFlare—an internet service provider—and an unnamed domain registration site to gain access to the identity of the anonymous blogger, as well as retain the services of an expert in “advanced investigative computer techniques.” The case remains pending.
Legal threats haven’t only been directed towards anonymous trolls and reporters: Dr. Bowers shared a 2018 email written by Dr. Rumer alleging “written defamation” and threatening a libel lawsuit after the surgeon commented on Dr. Rumer in a consultation with one of Rumer’s former patients.
Rumer’s litigiousness isn’t unique among surgeons, and the environment can make it difficult for many trans people to find recourse, or warn others about bad surgical experiences. It’s a system that makes frank public discussion about surgical outcomes nearly impossible to have.
Rumers Anonymous
The Blogspot site mentioned in Burns' article, Rumers Anonymous (a), features even more terrifying tales of Rumer's surgery and lawfare, though it isn't updated frequently. Rumer filed a lawsuit (a, paywalled) against the site's admin.
The admin posted a picture of a house and an address (s/a) which WhitePages says is Rumer's, but a result in Philadelphia was also returned for her and her husband's current address when I tried to corroborate that info. I'm not sure if the picture the admin posted or the other listing is her correct address and will update this section once it's verified.
Her husband's name is Kerry Joseph DeAngelis.
Other Lawsuits
Kiwifarms user twattycake found these other lawsuits filed against Rumer:
Valentino v. Rumer (a): Resolved via "binding high-low" arbitration, meaning that Rumer + the plaintiff agreed on high and low limits for damages and then let a third-party arbitrator make a decision based on mutually agreed-upon facts (so the practical outcome was a settlement). I don't know if there is a difference in terms of Rumer's malpractice rates but the added privacy of arbitration minimized her risk of embarrassing events during discovery.
Minto v Rumer (a): Another binding arbitration referral. She even used the same attorneys she hired in the Valentino case, if there's a group you don't want to have a stable business relationship with it's a malpractice-defense firm. The defense statement is unhelpfully vague (PDF, also attached below) and she is vindictive enough to demand attorney's fees against plaintiffs who sue her for malpractice. This reinforces the belief that there is some kind of shady NDA policy in her practice. A brief piece about the case was written in the Pennsylvania Record (a).
Coley v Rumer (a): Also referred to binding arbitration, also represented by the same attorneys, but the judge did not appear to formally "close out" the trial the way the other ones were - the others were "dismissed with prejudice" after the arbitration referral. This does not mean they were meritless, only that the plaintiff cannot refile because he agreed to get legal relief through arbitration instead.
The hippocratic oath exists so lunatics can't practice medicine and thus inflict Frankenstein monstrosities on people. Evidently elevating one lunacy to normal made all lunacy acceptable
I only have empathy for the children who are groomed into these barbaric practices by their narc parents. Grown men whose perversions control every faucet of their life, and foist on other people with their delusional pronoun demands, and bullying into women's spaces are getting their just deserts.
What should happen is, if we really have to allow it, patients need to be told up-front of all the potential complications and difficulties. Tell them the risk of suicide, depression, and various physical disorders is massive. Tell them it's not going to be remotely as easy as supposed support groups online claim. Tell them straight up that it's a very difficult procedure that causes complications more often than it fixes problems of gender dysphoria (which isn't even the main reason half these people do it). If the patient, knowing all the risks, still chooses to go through with it, then fine, that's their decision, and if it works out, good for them, if not, then at least I told you so. Instead we've got all this flowery bullshit surrounding it lying to people about how happy people will be if they transition and how the only problem is a society that won't accept them rather than the literal mutilation that results in psychological, hormonal, and physical disorders that can potentially ruin your life even worse than diagnosed gender dysphoria can. I don't care what people wanna do with rheir own lives if it's not causing damage to others, but in this case the problem is most of the time the patients don't seem to be told up front what the risks and potential complications are. When they start regretting it and wanting to off themselves they always talk about how everyone said it'd be so easy, and no one told them how bad it'd be. That's the biggest problem. It's asinine that reassignment surgery is so unregulated and unrestricted when it's one of the most potentially life-damaging surgeries you can undergo. There should be a long approval process, plenty of information and explanation on the risks, and a sense of "Do you really want to do this" given to the patient. Also, they should cut the bunk about the surgery also causing problems because muh bigoted culture and instead emphasize that, yes, the surgery can cause a major physical impact to your brain and psychological state. But fuck that I guess, let's let people kill themselves because it's transphobic to say otherwise or something. Wouldn't wanna offend anyone! This stuff makes me mad at the internet. Right now kids and other dumb impressionable people are being encouraged to do this sorta shit and it's going to irreversibly ruin their lives at no/non-total fault of their own. It sucks.
From what I understood this was how it used to be. Step one was to try and address potential causes of the dysphoria. Like depression or schizophrenia. Step 2 was to address the dysphoria directly with the goal of working through the issues.
A full on gender transition was considered a last resort. the SRS surgery was strongly discouraged but if desired required you having spent over a year as the preferred gender and gone through the various ritual humiliations of changing your name with the government and so on. Seems these rules have been relaxed hard in the current year. Now anyone can get their dick chopped off and apparently anyone can do it.
From what I understood this was how it used to be. Step one was to try and address potential causes of the dysphoria. Like depression or schizophrenia. Step 2 was to address the dysphoria directly with the goal of working through the issues.
A full on gender transition was considered a last resort. the SRS surgery was strongly discouraged but if desired required you having spent over a year as the preferred gender and gone through the various ritual humiliations of changing your name with the government and so on. Seems these rules have been relaxed hard in the current year. Now anyone can get their dick chopped off and apparently anyone can do it.
Correct. Transitioning used to be an INCREDIBLY rare treatment for an already INCREDIBLY rare disorder.
Then the left realized they were running out of gay rights to fight for, and there was that giant fucking untapped mine of oppression they could dive into if they brought troons into the fold. Combine that with AGPs et all realizing they had a chance to have their fetish legitimized, along with the RadFems teaching an entire generation that men are evil, and the cultural marxists realizing they could break the west apart over yet another wedge issue, and a dozen other tiny things, and you now have Transitioning being the default treatment for a disorder that people are literally self diagnosing -- and if you suggest they shouldn't self diagnose, or that a doctor should push for Transitioning immediately, you're performing a hate crime.
There are hospitals out there that won't even do SRS or even suggest it, because quite simply put -- it doesn't work. Between people who don't actually have Gender Dysphoria -- so transitioning will NEVER solve anything -- and the fact that 90% of the time therapy and dealing with the root causes of shit would fix it whereas Transitioning literally was a hail Mary to try and keep the few truly broken from necking themselves, well, it's pointless to suggest "yeah go ahead and dress like a woman and we'll get your dick chopped off eventually" for anyone except those very specific people.
Unless you have an ulterior motive for the whole thing. Like you have a fetish. Or you're suffering from high functioning autism and no one's pushed you out of the cycle of obsession with "being female." Or you're suffering from depression and have decided women have it easier, so you'll just magically become female. Or you've spent 20 years in the education system and know, beyond a doubt, that MEN are the source of all evil, so you MUST be a woman to reject that evil. Or whatever other insane troon bullshit is leading you to want to play dress up and demand people call you ma'am.
So how much of this is Rumer being really really bad at M2F surgery... and how much of it is Troons not realizing that no amount of magic can conjure up them a vagina?
The Blogspot site mentioned in Burns' article, Rumers Anonymous (a), features even more terrifying tales of Rumer's surgery and lawfare, though it isn't updated frequently. Rumer filed a lawsuit (a, paywalled) against the site's admin.
I probably am not as well informed on this topic as I should be, I just know I love my friend as I would love a sibling and I don’t want any harm to come to my friend.
Good gods, a thread full of nsfw spoiler landmines.
What's wrong with crossdressing ? The worst is a kiwifarms thread and the temporary loss of dignity. You still literally have balls to change your life eventually.
I understand trannies are amusing disasters, however this thread makes me so sad. I generally feel bad for anyone with buyers remorse, but for it to be concurrent with mutilation is really tragic.
These surgeons are like amped up homeopaths, peddling nonsense from a hospital office. Truly despicable.
whatever is casuing this present castration impulse needs to be addressed psychologically, i really cant express how shocked i am the length to which this has been normalized.
