Plagued COVID Conspiracy Theorists and other idiots - This is not a political thunderdome or gay slapfight thread.

[Techpriest]

Not getting the vaccine is like driving drunk and having passengers. Sure, you might end up getting home safe, but you’re far more likely to end up rolled over in a ditch, wrapped around a tree, or crashing into another car. It’s reckless behavior, especially when combined with horse paste, malarial drugs, or trying to ABDUCT A SCHOOL PRINCIPAL because you’re mad your kid has to quarantine.

We’ve bent over backward to try and accommodate people who don’t mask up, another simple fucking thing that helps slow the spread and keep people alive. It’s been almost two fucking years, and the only reason we can’t return to normal is because of fucking paranoids, new age Karen’s, and political retards who fought every attempt at managing a pandemic with the excuse of “personal responsibility”.

Not driving drunk is personal responsibility, and gets other people killed. Take some personal responsibility, get the vaccine, and save your life and that of your retarded friends.

“But the vaccine might kill me!!!” Yeah, and so would taking a taxi back home, but the chances are so fucking slim they’re not worth mentioning.

 

[NakiNoRyu]

What I'm arguing is that we should consider stopping now if the vaccines really are that safe. Those who needed them the most got them and are protected, right? So why push it further on everyone else when there are no more benefits to society as a whole?

That isn't how it works at all. The point of a vaccine isn't to only help those that are most susceptible to it, the point is to inculcate immunity against bacteria and viruses to keep people alive but to also retard the mutation of the base virus into a more deadly form. That second part is the part that people like you don't seem of understand, or care about. If we stop now, with as many retards unvaccinated as we have now, than the unvaccinated will keep dying, taking up resources until they die, but also increase the risk that we all end up with a worse form of they virus to deal with, if we can at all.

If you and people like you want to be "cautious" and not get vaccinated while wholeheartedly being willing to risk the lives of the people around you, you have absolutely not right to whinge and complain when the people around act in turn and exclude or belittle you for risking their life and health.

td;dr There are still benefits to pushing vaccination, vaccines are not just for the incredibly at risk, because eventually everyone will be incredibly at risk if we dont.

 

[Nauseated Courgi]

@Parasaurolophus

That is good to hear that you are fine, and I'm honestly glad for everyone who comes out without too many complaints. The vaccines are probably safe, not arguing against that, just that I'd still like to decide for myself what medication I take and what not? Like I said, I'm just skeptical and nothing will be able to change my mind but time.

Y'know what? That's understandable. Stay safe.

 

[John Merston]

i'm asking out of genuine curiosity, because this phenomenon has been confounding me for a while: if you disagree with the notion of the pandemic and sars-cov-2's existence, why did you come to the only thread on this site that doesn't align with your opinions to argue with us? i couldn't swing a dead cat without hitting an anti-vaxx thread around here.

Trump Enslavement Syndrome thread: Am I a joke to you?

 

[Parasaurolophus]

@NakiNoRyu

[...] but to also retard the mutation of the base virus into a more deadly form.

My whole understanding was that the currently available vaccines fail in exactly that point? They don't prevent people from getting covid and spreading it, how do they retard mutations? Also, if viruses usually go the way of becoming less deadly and keeping the host alive, why is covid different? Are/Were there signs that this is happening? If any of that is true I'd actually be willing to reconsider my position.

If you and people like you want to be "cautious" and not get vaccinated while wholeheartedly being willing to risk the lives of the people around you, you have absolutely not right to whinge and complain when the people around act in turn and exclude or belittle you for risking their life and health.

Maybe this is the point where I should clarify I'm not from the U.S.. In Germany we are generally very obedient when it comes to authority and rules so seeing people without masks indoors was the rare exception during the whole of the last one and a half years. If it really was the other way around in the states I can understand the frustration, though. Personally I don't complain about wearing masks and avoid close contact with people anyway. You do you.

 

[Standardized Profile]

Quoting is broken, responding to Parasaurolophus:

My whole understanding was that the currently available vaccines fail in exactly that point? They don't prevent people from getting covid and spreading it, how do they retard mutations?

Your understanding is incorrect, probably due to sensationalist headlines from the mass media regarding the Delta variant. COVID vaccines reduce the number of people infected and the total amount of viral replication in the host, reducing the opportunities for mutation and transmission. A recent paper from Norway determined vaccination is about 65% effective against infection by Delta. In the UK, they're saying it's 75-88% effective against a symptomatic Delta case. No infection, or only a very minor or asymptomatic infection, means the virus isn't reproducing very much. That means fewer opportunities for mutation and/or transmission.

The media publicized a finding that some people who were vaccinated at some point could have as many virions as an unvaccinated person, but that doesn't tell us how long they were infected or how many virions were produced during that period. The maximum point on a curve doesn't tell us what the area under the curve is. And when you consider the whole population, instead of individual breakout cases, you have to factor in the vaccine effectiveness described above.

Also, if viruses usually go the way of becoming less deadly and keeping the host alive, why is covid different?

"Usually" occurs over an evolutionary timescale. In shorter periods, viruses can become more deadly. For example, SARS-CoV-2 was harmless to humans until 2019, when it mutated and started killing us. In 2021, the Delta variant emerged which may be worse. And a virus only has to keep the host alive long enough to transmit itself to other people, which SARS-CoV-2 does wonderfully.

 

[NakiNoRyu]

@Parasaurolophus

My whole understanding was that the currently available vaccines fail in exactly that point?

I have no idea where you hear or read this but I'd love to see it. Could use a laugh these days

They don't prevent people from getting covid and spreading it, how do they retard mutations?

First of all, the point isn't to keep one from getting a virus, it's to lessen transmission between people by essentially preventing the virus from "taking root", so to speak. If your're vaccinated against something, it doesn't mean you cant get it, it means you wont suffer the effects (possibly as bad as they could be), reduced or non existent symptoms, and you wont spread it.

For example. lets say I both catch covid, and I'm vaccinated. I have it, and its incubating, Now I, with the vaccine, have a better chance that covid wont fully take hold and I can shake it off; I might have light symptoms or none at all, but most importantly, , it dies off thanks to the vaccine, well before it has the chance to reach maturity and spread but also it doesn't have time to live and mutate. Viruses aren't transmittable the moment you get them, there's a timeframe, and vaccine's entire job is to keep them from taking hold so they don't reach spreadable maturity.

Also, if viruses usually go the way of becoming less deadly and keeping the host alive, why is covid different? Are/Were there signs that this is happening?

>Why is covid different
The world may never know.

If any of that is true I'd actually be willing to reconsider my position.

I dont know what to tell you man. Virology has been around a long time, im sure there's a simple textbook that could be had. Even highschool textbooks have this infomation.

 

[Techpriest]

@Parasaurolophus we’ve answered a lot of your concerns with a lot of other people way earlier in this thread. Virology and epidemiology are complicated, dense topics. It’s easy to not understand or get wrong info from people about them, especially in regards to how vaccination in a population works, the effectiveness of the vaccine, and other such topics. I highly recommend you look into what the CDC has on its website (CDC.gov) regarding vaccination for plenty of things, not just Covid. There’s tons of legitimate, peer reviewed and published research on vaccination, which admittedly can and is usually dry as hell to read through, but there’s popular history on the Smallpox vaccine, and how we slowly killed a virus that’s caused about 1/10 deaths or so in human history.

 

[Parasaurolophus]

@NakiNoRyu

I have no idea where you hear or read this but I'd love to see it. Could use a laugh these days

I can't name you exactly where I heard it first, but wasn't that what all the fuss about delta was about? The huge panic about it being possibly resistant against the vaccines? Now, of course, if it is a variant that originated in unvaccinated communities you could blame those, but right now blame doesn't really change the fact that it's there. And if the vaccines don't help against covid finding hosts to mutate in, why take them? The way it is now I see getting the jab as a purely personal choice, not one that'd benefit the people around me that much. At least not much more than masks and distance do already.

>Why is covid different
The world may never know.

If any of that is true I'd actually be willing to reconsider my position.

I dont know what to tell you man. Virology has been around a long time, im sure there's a simple textbook that could be had. Even highschool textbooks have this infomation.

If it's that simple I'm sure you could explain it instead of talking down to strangers? Also, I'm sorry, but after the Hogan Experience I kinda have a hard time taking anything seriously that refers to "the science" like it's an uniform entity that shan't be questioned. Besides, it didn't even answer why covid apparently develops to be more deadly :<

@Techpriest

@Parasaurolophus we’ve answered a lot of your concerns with a lot of other people way earlier in this thread. Virology and epidemiology are complicated, dense topics. It’s easy to not understand or get wrong info from people about them, especially in regards to how vaccination in a population works, the effectiveness of the vaccine, and other such topics. I highly recommend you look into what the CDC has on its website (CDC.gov) regarding vaccination for plenty of things, not just Covid. There’s tons of legitimate, peer reviewed and published research on vaccination, which admittedly can and is usually dry as hell to read through, but there’s popular history on the Smallpox vaccine, and how we slowly killed a virus that’s caused about 1/10 deaths or so in human history.

Thank you for your advice and concern. You're right that those are no easy topics and especially now, with how politicized everything around covid is, you probably should take everything you hear with a grain of salt. Maybe it is better to get your information from unbiased textbooks that were published before December of 2019. Honestly, I wouldn't even trust the CDC right now, at least not on its own... Oh! I guess I just found what makes me a conspiracy theorist to other people^^

What I do know about smallpox, though, is that it was a human disease, right? That we were that successful in eradicating it was partially thanks to it not having a chance to escape to wildlife, mutate there, and then come back to us. Covid, on the other hand, is different in that regard, and it's questionable if we could repeat the same with this disease.

If we should, even. Maybe I'm pessimistic, but I don't think covid is ever going away and instead of continuously fighting it, maybe it's better to find ways to live with it instead. Vaccinate those who need it, keep the economy going and keep developing new vaccines for new variants. At least as long as covid isn't getting deadlier than it is now.

Edit since I genuinely didn't see your post before submitting:

@Standardized Profile

Your understanding is incorrect, probably due to sensationalist headlines from the mass media regarding the Delta variant. COVID vaccines reduce the number of people infected and the total amount of viral replication in the host, reducing the opportunities for mutation and transmission. A recent paper from Norway determined vaccination is about 65% effective against infection by Delta. In the UK, they're saying it's 75-88% effective against a symptomatic Delta case. No infection, or only a very minor or asymptomatic infection, means the virus isn't reproducing very much. That means fewer opportunities for mutation and/or transmission.

The media publicized a finding that some people who were vaccinated at some point could have as many virions as an unvaccinated person, but that doesn't tell us how long they were infected or how many virions were produced during that period. The maximum point on a curve doesn't tell us what the area under the curve is. And when you consider the whole population, instead of individual breakout cases, you have to factor in the vaccine effectiveness described above.

Yes, that is exactly what I was referring to! Probably a bit dumb to assume when all the news outlets report the same there must be some truth to it, at least nowadays. Thank you for your patience to explain the situation in such a polite manner.

So vaccines aren't perfect but they do retard mutations by killing off enough of the virus that in a majority of cases it doesn't spread or mutate. Alright, that is actually a good point. Still, 12-35% possibility of it doing so in bodies that are supposed to be equipped against it still appears a little bit scary to me, to be honest. I'm not that educated in biology, but my understanding is that the percentage that does survive probably is better suited to get by in vaccinated people?

"Usually" occurs over an evolutionary timescale. In shorter periods, viruses can become more deadly. For example, SARS-CoV-2 was harmless to humans until 2019, when it mutated and started killing us. In 2021, the Delta variant emerged which may be worse. And a virus only has to keep the host alive long enough to transmit itself to other people, which SARS-CoV-2 does wonderfully.

Of course. Thanks again for explaining it. Though, the way you word it it still sound pretty open if it is actually worse? Guess that means we have to wait and see?

 

[Techpriest]

@Parasaurolophus Smallpox is a disease that jumped from animals to humans at some point. It’s related to diseases like cowpox, camelpox and monkeypox. Smallpox then adapted to human hosts, but “adapted” doesn’t mean less lethal. Smallpox had a 30% fatality rate, and horrific lasting side effects like scarring and blindness in some. It was highly contagious. Covid is similar in many ways.

 

[Emo Supremo]

@Parasaurolophus we’ve answered a lot of your concerns with a lot of other people way earlier in this thread. Virology and epidemiology are complicated, dense topics. It’s easy to not understand or get wrong info from people about them, especially in regards to how vaccination in a population works, the effectiveness of the vaccine, and other such topics. I highly recommend you look into what the CDC has on its website (CDC.gov) regarding vaccination for plenty of things, not just Covid. There’s tons of legitimate, peer reviewed and published research on vaccination, which admittedly can and is usually dry as hell to read through, but there’s popular history on the Smallpox vaccine, and how we slowly killed a virus that’s caused about 1/10 deaths or so in human history.

that's the shit thing about academic papers, they're very dry and loaded with specialist terminology you're not going to understand unless you already know what the fuck they're talking about, and unfortunately a lot of people are used to news articles that are more entertaining but also less factual. then again it's a whole thing just to get most americans to read a book, never mind a medical journal.

 

[JaneThough]

@Parasaurolophus The concern with the vaccine and the Delta is that if the virus is left to mutate further, it can mutate to become vaccine resistant. Which is why everyone is pushing so hard for everyone who can to get the vaccine. The sooner we reach herd immunity through vaccination, not only the sooner do we return to normal life, but the sooner we can ensure that this disease will not mutate it's way to something that could threaten the species.

I have a question for anyone who knows more about insurance or the law than me. Can insurance companies eventually start denying claims from people with COVID who declined the vaccine? Because that's like....the perfect storm of "you made your bed" for the right that I cannot wait to see.

 

[Tridgeridoo]

Maybe I'm pessimistic, but I don't think covid is ever going away and instead of continuously fighting it, maybe it's better to find ways to live with it instead. Vaccinate those who need it, keep the economy going and keep developing new vaccines for new variants. At least as long as covid isn't getting deadlier than it is now.

If you want to find ways to live with covid, you have to balance the damage done by covid infections (deaths, permanent or long term organ damage) and the severity of the counter-measures, such as mask mandates or bans on indoor events.

If a vaccine is 80% effective in preventing infections, that means the average unvaccinated person is five times more likely to be infected and five times more likely to infect others. The more unvaccinated people there are in a population, the more restrictions you will need to limit the damage to whatever level you deem acceptable. Likewise, vaccinated people have significantly better outcomes once infected, again allowing you to get away with fewer counter-measures and restrictions.

 

[The Last Stand]

I have a question for anyone who knows more about insurance or the law than me. Can insurance companies eventually start denying claims from people with COVID who declined the vaccine? Because that's like....the perfect storm of "you made your bed" for the right that I cannot wait to see.

I'm hearing that's what they're trying to do.

 

[JaneThough]

I'm hearing that's what they're trying to do.

Watch how fast suddenly the right are for single payer healthcare! Trump may turn out to have been the best thing for the left ever

 

[Parasaurolophus]

@JaneThough

@Parasaurolophus The concern with the vaccine and the Delta is that if the virus is left to mutate further, it can mutate to become vaccine resistant. Which is why everyone is pushing so hard for everyone who can to get the vaccine. The sooner we reach herd immunity through vaccination, not only the sooner do we return to normal life, but the sooner we can ensure that this disease will not mutate it's way to something that could threaten the species.

Ah, alright, so the worry is about Delta mutating into something that is even more vaccine resistant than the current one and that it has more chances in unvaccinated people? But, please correct me if I'm not seeing something important, but if virus evolution is not that radically different from, well, regular evolution, wouldn't vaccinated people offer a better environment to develop a resistant strain? I mean, that's where the ones that can survive the treatment spread from. Wouldn't it be even worse if everyone is vaccinated compared to just the most vulnerable population?

@Tridgeridoo

If you want to find ways to live with covid, you have to balance the damage done by covid infections (deaths, permanent or long term organ damage) and the severity of the counter-measures, such as mask mandates or bans on indoor events.

If a vaccine is 80% effective in preventing infections, that means the average unvaccinated person is five times more likely to be infected and five times more likely to infect others. The more unvaccinated people there are in a population, the more restrictions you will need to limit the damage to whatever level you deem acceptable. Likewise, vaccinated people have significantly better outcomes once infected, again allowing you to get away with fewer counter-measures and restrictions.

Yeah, that's how we do it with other diseases, too. I hope we can return to that kind of state soon. Preferably without committing to a two-class-society and forced vaccinations.

To level with you guys, I said I'd reconsider my position if someone manages to convince me, but that is no motivation for myself. It is purely about doing the right thing, for my loved ones, for the people around me. I myself am absolutely terrified about all of this. A decision for it can mean saving lives in the moment, a decision against can mean being alive in 5-10 years time (if it should turn out these vaccines have a deadly side effect that'll come up later). Maybe that is cowardly, maybe that is smart... right now? It just feels like agony, your logical side fighting against your drive of self preservation. How do you cope with all of this? Do you need some kind of faith? I'm guessing there are not many virologists in this thread here, or other more involved experts and rather ordinary people who've read into the topic a lot?

 

[CharlesBarkley]

a decision against can mean being alive in 5-10 years time (if it should turn out these vaccines have a deadly side effect that'll come up later)

Lol just get a j&j shot then. Worst case you get a blood clot and have to run to ER, but you are more likely to die in an auto accident 1000x than that.

 

[Doctor of Autism]

Seeking prayer!!! In the ER with my son because the FUCKING MARINES made him feel like he had to get this damn shot and...
posted 4 hours ago by Haven91 +1060 / -2
They’re completely ignoring the fact that he had the vax only days ago, and acting like he might have FUCKING COVID. No, Zombie nurses!!! He’s struggling to breathe bent over in pain in his head because he’s having an allergic reaction to the vax or blood clots or some INSANE reaction because they POISONED MY KID! This freaking staff in the hospital... I’m terrified. They’ve literally lost their minds. I knew when I brought him in, there was going to be bullshit. But this... they’re going to make me leave him because he’s 18 and Covid. There’s protocol, because Covid. Am I vaxxed, because Covid? They’re repeating the word COVID like they’re completely insane... my God. Jesus and a miracle will be they only thing keeping my son safe right now.

 

[JaneThough]

@Parasaurolophus your issue is that you are asking for expert opinions on a forum dedicated to an autistic rapist tranny. Several people have linked you to several sources. I'm not a virologist, and I don't have any skin in this game whether you get vaccinated or not. Would I prefer it? Yes, for you, your loved ones, and for society's sake. But I am not an expert, and I don't honestly know what I can say to convince you. If you are looking for expert opinion, check out the CDC website and what they recommend. Check out the FDA's opinion's on the vaccine. Check sources, peer reviewed sources, not articles by the media or facebook or tweets. I am sure someone in this thread has some more expertise than me but I am not the one. I'm vaccinated so I'm protected. So's my family. Godspeed.

 

[Hollywood Hulk Hogan]

@Parasaurolophus (it wont let me reply)

Ah, alright, so the worry is about Delta mutating into something that is even more vaccine resistant than the current one and that it has more chances in unvaccinated people? But, please correct me if I'm not seeing something important, but if virus evolution is not that radically different from, well, regular evolution, wouldn't vaccinated people offer a better environment to develop a resistant strain? I mean, that's where the ones that can survive the treatment spread from. Wouldn't it be even worse if everyone is vaccinated compared to just the most vulnerable population?

No, it doesn't really work that way. Mutations are random. Selection for said mutations is not as random, but the vaccine being around doesn't magically make vaccine-resistant mutations happen.

To level with you guys, I said I'd reconsider my position if someone manages to convince me, but that is no motivation for myself. It is purely about doing the right thing, for my loved ones, for the people around me. I myself am absolutely terrified about all of this. A decision for it can mean saving lives in the moment, a decision against can mean being alive in 5-10 years time (if it should turn out these vaccines have a deadly side effect that'll come up later). Maybe that is cowardly, maybe that is smart... right now? It just feels like agony, your logical side fighting against your drive of self preservation. How do you cope with all of this? Do you need some kind of faith? I'm guessing there are not many virologists in this thread here, or other more involved experts and rather ordinary people who've read into the topic a lot?

Why are you so terrified of potential vaccine side effects down the line when that's never happened in the history of medicine before, yet you aren't terrified of potential long-term side effects of covid itself?

Scientists and doctors have gotten the vaccine. They know a lot more about this shit than you and I. What knowledge about vaccines do you know that they don't?