Are values worth keeping anymore?

[(((I am NOT a jew)))]

Are values worth keeping anymore?
I've been wondering this for a long time.
Is it truly worth sticking by your value system in society anymore? I don't just mean traditional conservative values or anything. Just... is there any real incentive to hold onto morals?
I've seen some of the most heinous, disgusting human beings doing just fine right now. There seems to be no justice coming their way unless someone delivers it, which will negatively affect the latter more than the former.
I know the usual answer is that it shouldn't be about rewards for your good actions and will and should be the action and intent itself that holds value for you. But human beings can't work off that. I don't think all humans are inherently selfish or all acts of kindness are veiled narcissism, but there comes a point where you need some trade-off. Asking someone to give purely of themselves on principal when there will mostly be negative consequences for it is like expecting someone to pay to work at a job that deducts their pay constantly.
In a way I don't blame anyone right now who is a reprehensible human being. I understand Keffals. If you told me I could raise 100,000 off of a lie and be essentially a sociopath with almost no recourse and a mostly positive outcome, I'm not saying I would... but I might really consider it. I understand grifters, con-men and people with weak values. Most just want to live their lives and have basic human necessities like financial stability and social interaction. Having a society that rewards a weak everchanging moral system, using such things as leverage, is bound to work.
I've always thought a consistent moral system was more important than anything else, even if it was of morals I didn't agree with. But the more the world decides to clown out, I'm really questioning is it worth it anymore.
I want to date but I don't want to use dating websites. I want to make art but I don't want to become hypocritical woke to the point I miss the point of my own fiction. I want financial stability but I also don't want to be a imprisoned by my company through speech. I want friends but I'm not willing to become someone else in order to attract them.
And yes I can argue if I don't do those things that I am "better" or more just, but when the social system around you makes it constantly harsher to hold such values, you become only so free either way. You don't want to be the free-est homeless man of all, you know?
You can talk about the man who didn't salute Hitler or Tank Man all day but those guys are dead. And they died as a direct result of their actions. It makes for a nice photo or video, but they didn't accomplish shit.
So I have to ask myself and you. Is it worth it? Can someone live off of truth alone? Am I being a faggot who can't adapt with the times? Is it worth it to sell out, schill Raid: Shadow Legends and troon pills while changing your idealogical viewpoint every other week? Should you embrace degeneracy? Should you really be "yourself" around women or just say the shit that has worked for a lot of other men? Can you unapologetically be an earnest human being anymore? And how?
Sorry if I'm sounding like a whiney bitch right now. I'm not as cynical as a lot of you probably are now. It just really weighs on me on a daily basis.

 

[Fomo Hoire]

Don't conflate values - especially personal values - and morality.

When people violate their truly held values, they feel like shit. Their incentive to follow their values is they belive in something and they don't want to make themselves feel suicidal.

Not all values are equal and when two conflict, one has to win. We can see this with SCOTUS rulings. But even when one side wins, SCOTUS is often split and the dissenting opinion is there as a warning to only apply the winning rationale as far as is appropriate, everything is bound by circumstance and scope.

What you're seeing with all the psychopathy and hedonism is people who are violating society's values, not their own values. If they ever claimed to hold those values, one of two things happened:

1. They changed.
2. They presented a false value in order to further a true value.
3. (There is a third option that the value is truly held but lost against a deeper value, but that doesn't generally apply to sociopathy).

When people have morals, those will also be values. But when people lack morals, they can still value things like reputation and pleasure, and they are still capable of pretending they have morality based values in order to achieve those ends.

 

[poopybutty777]

lol didn't read

 

[Wormy]

"Nothing really rocks and nothing really rolls, and nothing's ever worth the cost."
-Meatloaf

 

[poopybutty777]

Am I being a faggot

Yes.

 

[The Real Me]

Are values worth keeping anymore?

Yes.

I've seen some of the most heinous, disgusting human beings doing just fine right now. There seems to be no justice coming their way unless someone delivers it, which will negatively affect the latter more than the former.

There always have and always will be people that openly do bad things and get away with it. Open secrets have always existed. What separates normal people from online con artists, drug addicted celebrities and child-molesting film producers is that most people have both enough empathy and respect for both the people they know and strangers that observe them to understand and care about how their actions affect them and how they are perceived by them. To be one of those people is to trade out a healthy level of self respect for narcissism.

I know the usual answer is that it shouldn't be about rewards for your good actions and will and should be the action and intent itself that holds value for you. But human beings can't work off that...there comes a point where you need some trade-off. Asking someone to give purely of themselves on principal when there will mostly be negative consequences for it is like expecting someone to pay to work at a job that deducts their pay constantly.

Most societies do not ask people to give their everything and expect nothing in return or to their own determent unless they're a cult of personality or a dictatorship. You do not need to do this in order to not be a terrible person.

I want to make art but I don't want to become hypocritical woke to the point I miss the point of my own fiction.

????????I don't even know what this means. Making art will not magically turn you into a liberal.

I want friends but I'm not willing to become someone else in order to attract them.

If you are unable to make friends as you are, that should be a hint to seriously evaluate why that is. Maybe you just have poor conversational skills or perhaps you have habits that people find irritating. Maybe the people that you interact with just have a personality that doesn't gel with yours. (Pro Tip: Selling out your morals will not make you more likeable.)

You can talk about the man who didn't salute Hitler or Tank Man all day but those guys are dead. And they died as a direct result of their actions. It makes for a nice photo or video, but they didn't accomplish shit.

They are martyrs that stood up for what they believed in, cementing themselves as symbols of individualism and providing inspiration to all those who have observed their actions.

I'm not as cynical as a lot of you probably are now.

Liar.

 

[NerdShamer]

I want to date but I don't want to use dating websites.

Who said that you can only use one?

I want to make art but I don't want to become hypocritical woke to the point I miss the point of my own fiction.

Who said that you can't have several perspectives in one story?

I want financial stability but I also don't want to be a imprisoned by my company through speech

I want friends but I'm not willing to become someone else in order to attract them.

Why are you acting like this isn't normal?

Can someone live off of truth alone?

If this was true, then people wouldn't be complaining about how miserable they are.

Am I being a autist who can't adapt with the times?

Yes, you are.

 

[(((I am NOT a jew)))]

Look I'm not trying to be autistic or preachy. It just is something that bothers me.

Most societies do not ask people to give their everything and expect nothing in return or to their own determent unless they're a cult of personality or a dictatorship. You do not need to do this in order to not be a terrible person.

True. But there's a point in society right now where people are losing jobs and seen as potential targets for harassment for opinions they hold. Right now it's conservatives but it can easily sway back. So we're in an age where expression of thought, even mildly, can put you at serious risk. Not only that but I've seen an overall death of work ethics, with about 30% of a work crew doing 90% of the labor. I've seen people good people worked to the bone while many get on the government check or rely on generational wealth, but do nothing with it.

Making art will not magically turn you into a liberal.

Not neccessarily, but there is an understanding that if you are going to work in film, you are going to be under a magnifying glass. If you are on Twitch or Youtube, you will have to express certain opinions, not talk of certain topics, and overall be as middle of the road as possible. If it's journalism, you have to be left. If it's comics... left. You might not turn into a liberal, but you're going to have a much harder time not being one.

If you are unable to make friends as you are, that should be a hint to seriously evaluate why that is. Maybe you just have poor conversational skills or perhaps you have habits that people find irritating. Maybe the people that you interact with just have a personality that doesn't gel with yours. (Pro Tip: Selling out your morals will not make you more likeable.)

Very true. I'll admit I'm not the most social animal and a chunk of that falls on me. But I see how a lot of people with large amounts of friends or a large acceptance rate by society tend to not have very strong values. I'm not saying this is a lefty thing. I think it's just that people who can be all things to all people are generally much better at forming a crowd of people around them, even if their values are not strong.

They are martyrs that stood up for what they believed in, cementing themselves as symbols of individualism and providing inspiration to all those who have observed their actions.

Yes, later. But it sure sucked to be them at the moment. They might inspire people now, but there's only so far that inspiration can go if you take it literally.
"Yes, you will stand up, and be quietly escorted away and die while the general public continues on until brute force breaks apart the societal structure you stood against. But it will inspire others."
I'm mostly speaking from personal experience. When I talk to others, I generally seem to have a different background from them. I know that. I do have a close friend and I have had people show genuine gratitude for helping them. But I think about that compared to the legions of abusive spouses, pedophiles and sex fiends who will never see a day in jail and it breaks me a little.
I just notice things that make me wonder why try?
It's much easier to be a victim now. Why struggle with becoming a better man when you can troon out? Why work a job if there are others that will do it for you? Why try to expose shitty people when they have an entire world behind them willing to do anything to silence you? Why work hard on making a great film or novel when you can claim to be apart of a minority which will work as selling point in and of itself?

Liar.

Maybe I'm just as cynical, but I'm also a lot gayer and haven't used a forum built on laughing at the kind of post I'm making here, so I got some work to do.

 

[Jonah Hill poster]

Without values, there’s no integrity. Without integrity, there’s no principles.

Values are what you do with them and how much they mean to you.

 

[UERISIMILITUDO]

I support those who hold views opposed to mine to lose their values, because that will allow people who hold views like mine to more easily conquer them.

 

[Friend of Dorothy Parker]

Look I'm not trying to be autistic or preachy. It just is something that bothers me.

True. But there's a point in society right now where people are losing jobs and seen as potential targets for harassment for opinions they hold. Right now it's conservatives but it can easily sway back. So we're in an age where expression of thought, even mildly, can put you at serious risk. Not only that but I've seen an overall death of work ethics, with about 30% of a work crew doing 90% of the labor. I've seen people good people worked to the bone while many get on the government check or rely on generational wealth, but do nothing with it.

Not neccessarily, but there is an understanding that if you are going to work in film, you are going to be under a magnifying glass. If you are on Twitch or Youtube, you will have to express certain opinions, not talk of certain topics, and overall be as middle of the road as possible. If it's journalism, you have to be left. If it's comics... left. You might not turn into a liberal, but you're going to have a much harder time not being one.

Very true. I'll admit I'm not the most social animal and a chunk of that falls on me. But I see how a lot of people with large amounts of friends or a large acceptance rate by society tend to not have very strong values. I'm not saying this is a lefty thing. I think it's just that people who can be all things to all people are generally much better at forming a crowd of people around them, even if their values are not strong.

Yes, later. But it sure sucked to be them at the moment. They might inspire people now, but there's only so far that inspiration can go if you take it literally.
"Yes, you will stand up, and be quietly escorted away and die while the general public continues on until brute force breaks apart the societal structure you stood against. But it will inspire others."
I'm mostly speaking from personal experience. When I talk to others, I generally seem to have a different background from them. I know that. I do have a close friend and I have had people show genuine gratitude for helping them. But I think about that compared to the legions of abusive spouses, pedophiles and sex fiends who will never see a day in jail and it breaks me a little.
I just notice things that make me wonder why try?
It's much easier to be a victim now. Why struggle with becoming a better man when you can troon out? Why work a job if there are others that will do it for you? Why try to expose shitty people when they have an entire world behind them willing to do anything to silence you? Why work hard on making a great film or novel when you can claim to be apart of a minority which will work as selling point in and of itself?

Maybe I'm just as cynical, but I'm also a lot gayer and haven't used a forum built on laughing at the kind of post I'm making here, so I got some work to do.

My recommendation to you is turn off the internet. But before you do, do a search for "classical liberal arts curriculum reading list" or "great books.". Then go start reading and thinking away from the noise. Here are a few that came up in the first pages of results:

Great Books Reading List and Curriculum | St. John's College

The foundational texts of Western civilization are on the reading list for St. John's College, where all students study the Great Books curriculum.

www.sjc.edu

https://gutenberg.edu/academics/reading-list/

Books

Following an integrated curriculum composed of small discussion-based Seminars and Tutorials spanning the arts, history, literature, natural and social sciences, philosophy, politics, and theology, students and professors join a vibrant conversation about what it means to be human.

pls.nd.edu

Reading Lists — Valor Education

www.valoreducation.org

I think the first 3 are colleges, and the last is a K-12 with suggested readings at each level. I recommend this because you seem to have big questions without much of a framework or perspective beyond what gets repeated over and over online/in the current culture's droning and fretting.

 

[Lemmingwiser]

I think OP asks a very rational question.

I once read a book on ethics that laid out a variety of ways to view ethics. One was modeled after a diplomat that resigned when he realised he was expected to host sex parties for an ambassador. He claimed he would not be able to look himself in the mirror with grace. As secular measuring sticks for ethics go, it is not a terrible one.

Another way it was laid out is that you should follow the ethics shared by others. That when every car salesman lies about the quality of a car, you're unable to compete if you don't. And that improving business ethics happens when you're able to convince the majority to change their practices. This one seems to mirror OP's question. When in rome do as the romans? When in sodom and gomorrah... do as the sodomites? I think this is a recipe for personal disaster, personally, but I can see the rational thinking.

But even though it's a rational secular argument, I don't think you can escape even the judgement from your own psychology if you do so. You know it's crummy and you will lose self respect.

I agree that people are descending into worse moral choices. It took me quite a bit to contend with the cowardice and profit motives that had so few doctors speak up during covid. The number of people that got vaccinated despite it having negative health outcomes overall is something I'll never forget.

But even if the majority of people are descending morallyz that just means the pool of people that can be your friends is smaller. Do you want to be friends with backstabbers and people that can't be relied upon? Or do you want to build with those who can be relied upon? It requires filtering who you trust more so than the idyllic christian and monoethnic west that used to exist and requires more distrust and skepticism at vetting who can be trusted and not. This is one of those things that Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn got absolutely right, that by going after christians, communists were destroying the core of morality of the nation. Whatever one might thing about eclesstial or truth claims by christians, having an environment where people strive to do christian duty and fulfill christian ideals are incredibly positive to live in. The increased trust works wonders for business, for social lubrication, for solving problems, for resisting strife.

Now people are forced by necessity to take more of a jewish approach to society, by which I mean following strategies for an insular minority. I don't believe in following more noble methods when dealing with scum. Gentlemanly rules are only for between gentlemen not for savages. But do you really not want to cultivate a group of people that does have nobler life outlook?

 

[Wesley Willis]

This is a question a young Henry Kissinger asked himself...

 

[The Bovinian Derivative]

If you are on Twitch or Youtube, you will have to express certain opinions, not talk of certain topics, and overall be as middle of the road as possible.

You dont HAVE to be an online artist and air your socio political views. Some mangaka practically live on twitter and they only push their own work, retweet other manga, or talk about what they ate that day.

 

[Backinpogform]

Absolutely. If you don’t keep your principles when it’s tough, you never had principles.

 

[Pokemon Conquistador]

Know that assholes who flount morality and hurt people to get what they want are often fucking miserable human beings. Narcissists need to uphold an idealized version of themselves, and anything that shatters that illusion will make them suffer. No matter how much money and power a Narcissist has, they'll never be satisfied. Just look up the life of Joan Crawford to see a prime example of this. So don't look at a rich asshole and think they are getting away with anything. (Also, you can't really judge how successful a person is until they're safe in the ground. There are plenty of dictators who came to bad ends after living high off the hog. )

I used to have Boomer civnat values and I could really see a time back in the 80s when race, gender, and sexual orientation would be insignificant factors in judging a person's character and functionality. People would just be people and, other than a few small cultural differences, we were going to all be living in one great big Star Trek spaceship, singing and dancing in a circle. Then, Bush got elected, the Democrats went crazy, and the Cult of Critical Race Theory got started. Now, race, sex and orientation are the only things about a person that matters, and white people are the Devil, forever to be blamed for humanity's problems.

I now find myself giving less and less of a shit about other race's grievances, and I see a lot of the LGBTQ stuff as a power grab by freaks and fetishists. At the same time, I see plenty of weak-ass idiots in my own race (white) willing to trash large parts of the civilization we founded for the privilege of not being called racist. As a result, my values have gone from caring about all of humanity to saying "Fuck it, I'm going to look after my own." The people I consider "my own" are those, regardless of race and DNA, who will actively support my survival. Those who feel I owe them something because of my skin color can fuck off. Those who'd end a friendship with me or kick me out of their family because of political beliefs or jabbed status can also take a flying leap. That's the biggest way my values have changed. I feel there's no point in being a sucker, just so I can uphold some nebulous idea of good behavior which only serves the interests of people who don't have my best interests at heart.

 

[Ser Prize]

Pick your tribe. Do right by them. Make them prosper.

Be ruthless, but not cruel.

 

[Chiliarch]

I cannot remember where I read this, but when people sell out, it is almost always over something really trivial/minor. People do not sell out for 100k bucks: they sell out for 100. If you are at a point where you get 100k offers you are likely either a grifter already, or have such strong moral integrity you wont be likely to take it. When youre already at the higher prices, youre much more likely to sell out to regain what was lost rather than to gain something new (youd sell out to rebuy your late grandpa's house that you lost through bad financial decisions rather than sell out to buy a whole new house).

Another great example is that the bass player of one of my all time favorite band recently left; the bassis was a founding member was back in the early 80s, the band has 15 albums out and has just signed up with a major publishing company. Why did he leave? Cause the drummer (also a founding member) and manager stole like 25k from him. Can you imagine scamming your friend who youve known for over 30 years? And 25k isnt even that much money for a band of their caliber, you would make that amount working an average office job in like half a year.

In the past, the explanation was always that the gods (later God depending on where we are) would punish the sinners. This is found in all worldly traditions as far as I know of (even though there have been some ponderings on this by people like William of Occam but thats off topic). On a certain level, it does not even matter if it affects your soul, or dharma, or puts you in bad favor with the gods, you will get back what you had coming. But in a society where irreligion is the standard, what can you expect? If you sell out any values, you can gain material wealth, but honestly what is the point? Even from experience, I can tell you that if I obtain something by cheating I do not feel good about it. If I cheated just to pass some not particularly important exam, that is acceptable (who cares really), but if your entire adult career/life is built on lies and lies, do you think you would be content with that? You have done nothing but betrayed people around you and acted like scum.

Overall, it is better not to think of money at all; most things of worth were done for very little or no money.

 

[whogoesthere]

Morality and values are mostly a creation of people in power, in order to control ever increasing populations. You can have real values, but you must decide for yourself what matters and that which does not. Any time you look to some external element, something you cannot control, you are wasting your time and life. Who cares if elections are stolen, its all lies anyway. Does it matter if the white race is replaced by nig nogs? never going to happen, but the current fad, and thats all it is, a fad, is swinging one way. It will swing another at some point, always changes, might be worse, who fucking cares, its not something you can really do anything about.

People live their lives hoping for riches (less often these days) or fame (VERY fucking likely these days), but its all for naught. It will never make you happy, in fact its likely to make you fucking miserable in the long term, as I suspect most people know deep down.

It kinda feels like the whole "life is meaningless". Which it is, but people so often misunderstand that statement. It doesnt mean life is not worth living or is meaningless to try, just that "meaning" is not something you are going to find. Its absent of meaning and meaninglessness, those are concepts that are not really at play.

TLR - The way to self awareness, true understanding, is not one of addition, but of subtraction. Remove all that gunk and you will find life is actually quite enjoyable for the most part (always going to be bad times, just accept that, and move on).

 

[Wormy]

in fact its likely to make you fucking miserable in the long term, as I suspect most people know deep down.

Sorry, I've never bought this and never will. Not having to worry about whether or not bills are getting paid, ESPECIALLY medical ones, is objectively a positive. Not having to worry if the next car repair is going to bankrupt you is objectively good. Being able to live comfortably without slowly destroying your body in a physical job or your mind in an office job is an objectively positive thing. If I can live simply doing the dumb hobbies I love with the woman I love in a safe estate away from people fucking driving me insane, how is that long term bad for me?