Asymmetrical Multiculturalism - Or 'identity politics for me, but not for thee'

[Lensherr]

Facebook's recent banning of white nationalist and white separatist viewpoints, and the justification for doing so that it's because those two ideologies are indistinguishable from white supremacy [4], has got me thinking a lot about some reading that I've been doing about the current progressive dogma of condemning white people for pushing group interests while encouraging non-white groups to collectivize, and the implications that it has for the future of currently white-majority nations.

Sociologist Eric Kaufmann once coined a term that describes this phenomenon in his book The Rise and Fall of Anglo-America: "asymmetrical multiculturalism", as he calls it, happens when minority groups within a country are encouraged to openly express pride in their ethnic heritage as well as group solidarity as a means of advancing their groups' interests, whereas the majority culture is discouraged from doing the same, instead being chided into adopting a form of rootless cosmopolitanism divorced from their cultural and ethnic background [1]. This happened in America during the late-1800s and early-1900s, as white Anglo-Saxon Protestants (WASPs) began to be discouraged from clinging to their heritage as non-WASP European migrants flooded into the country and were subsequently encouraged to do the opposite.

In his more recent tome Whiteshift: Populism, Immigration and the Future of White Majorities, Kaufmann describes how this same phenomenon is occurring with respect to the current demographics of the country: minorities of African, Asian, and Hispanic descent are being encouraged by the progressive intelligentsia (the majority, or at least a plurality, of which I should note are white) to "celebrate a politicized version of their identity", whereas the general white European-descended majority "are compelled to be cosmopolitan, urged to supersede their ascribed identity": in other words, the opposite of what the aforementioned minorities are enjoined to do [2][3]

In other words, ethnic nationalism is like saying the word "nigger": it's only a problem when white people do it.

This is essentially the phenomenon on display here by this action taken by Facebook: non-white identity is something benign, something to be celebrated even, whereas white identity is inherently dangerous and supremacist. In the classical, non-bastardized sense of the term, this is racism. What is it about whites that makes their expression of group solidarity and pride in their heritage inherently dangerous, and for non-whites inherently positive? Can the reason be discerned without being caked under a thick layer of academic, sociopolitical jargon that isn't necessarily universal? And if so, does that mean that there is is a fixed, immutable characteristic of white people's nature, in which case, if one were to make the argument, the progressive belief of race as a purely sociological construct begins to fall apart. Either way, this pattern of behavior is emblematic of the hypocrisy and bigotry of progressive ideology: they have no desire to see everybody to play by the same rules or justice for the truly disenfranchised, only to undermine the influence of a group that they see as being the root cause of all the world's societal ills.

I think it's reasonable to ask the progressive thinkers of this ideology at what point do white people have the same right as these other groups to advocate for their own group interests without being branded as bigoted. Recent projections show that if current trends in immigration and birthrates continue, the US will become minority white by as early as 2045, which is just slightly over 25 years time [5]. In that case, will whites finally have the right to adopt the same brand of identity politics that their non-white countrymen are currently culturally-entitled to espouse? And if it's only then, then why is it morally wrong for whites to not want to become a minority in the countries that they founded, and why must they let their nations be the home of the entire world when the people that they let in currently have their own homelands almost, if not entirely exclusively to their own domain? These are all very tough questions for progressive multiculturalism proponents to answer, and whatever answers they give (if any) would do a great deal to reveal their true intentions and beliefs.

Sauces:

1. http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674013032
2. https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/024131710X?tag=prhmarketing2552-21
3. https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/02/populism-identity-politics-why-they-rise-in-tandem/
4. https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/...k-bans-white-nationalism-and-white-separatism
5. https://www.brookings.edu/blog/the-...ecome-minority-white-in-2045-census-projects/

 

[Damn Near]

tldr: jews are scum

 

[Crunchy Leaf]

Anyone who thinks White Americans aren't allowed to express ethnic pride has never been in South Boston for the St. Patrick's Day parade. (Unless you're not counting Irish people as white).

Anyway, I'm half-WASP myself, and I'm not sure what sort of cultural things you want me to take pride in. Racquetball? Going to the most boring church services in the world? Being Republican, the kind where you like gays as long as your kid isn't one, are okay with blacks but not in your neighborhood, dislike Southerners, and want low taxes except for the property taxes that keep your school district good? Eating awful Yankee mush?

The dumb thing about 'white pride' as opposed to, say, 'Irish-American pride' is white just means 'person of European descent and sometimes West Asian if they're pale enough'. There's not the same shared cultural background. And among WASPs, since they've been in this country so long, they've developed vastly different cultures that frequently don't care for each other (see my above comment about disliking Southerners). I maintain the only reason 'white nationalism' can exist is because they have a non-white other to hate; if American suddenly became 100% white, we would go back to Catholic vs Protestant (vs Mormon?), Italians would probably get kicked out of the white club, regional identifiers would become more important, etc.

 

[ProgKing of the North]

Part of the problem with that "whites will be a minority" thing is that it posits that the issue is simply WHITES vs. EVERYBODY. There will still be more whites than any other race, there just won't be more whites than all other races COMBINED. I don't see what the issue is, personally, I'm a mutt of several different European ancestries and honestly don't give much of a fuck if my neighbors look like me as long as they're good people.

 

[nagant 1895]

The dumb thing about 'white pride' as opposed to, say, 'Irish-American pride' is white just means 'person of European descent and sometimes West Asian if they're pale enough'. There's not the same shared cultural background. And among WASPs, since they've been in this country so long, they've developed vastly different cultures that frequently don't care for each other (see my above comment about disliking Southerners). I maintain the only reason 'white nationalism' can exist is because they have a non-white other to hate; if American suddenly became 100% white, we would go back to Catholic vs Protestant (vs Mormon?), Italians would probably get kicked out of the white club, regional identifiers would become more important, etc.

While I agree that people will always find or create In and Out groups, I can't support your claim of a lack of "shared cultural background" From Greece to Rome to Chistendom (a term we don't see much of any more but in older works appears a lot) to the enlightenment Western Europeans and their offshoots share a foundation of standards both cultural and intellectual. There's much more to the heritage of a white person than the intentionally negative WASP traits. It's sad that it all got dumbed down and sold for cheap in the consumerist 80s but the cultural artifacts themselves (Aristotle, Shakespear, Renoir) still exist even if their claimants have abandoned them.

 

[Crunchy Leaf]

While I agree that people will always find or create In and Out groups, I can't support your claim of a lack of "shared cultural background" From Greece to Rome to Chistendom (a term we don't see much of any more but in older works appears a lot) to the enlightenment Western Europeans and their offshoots share a foundation of standards both cultural and intellectual. There's much more to the heritage of a white person than the intentionally negative WASP traits. It's sad that it all got dumbed down and sold for cheap in the consumerist 80s but the cultural artifacts themselves (Aristotle, Shakespear, Renoir) still exist even if their claimants have abandoned them.

Is Shakespeare the cultural heritage of some Slav whose parents moved here after the USSR fell? You can't just say well, Slavs aren't white, because they are in fact white by American racial rules.

Even among people of Western European descent, I simply don't see much commonalities. Sure, the Enlightenment. But when it comes to food, or faith, or lifestyle, which are way bigger aspects of what people perceive as immediate culture, not so much. The KKK went after Catholics too.

Actually, this would make for a great reality show. Get the most stereotypical representatives of each type of white American person and make them all live in a house together. Have like, an Irish-American, an Italian-American, a Scandinavian-American, a Southern Baptist, a Mormon...

 

[Lemmingwise]

What is it about whites that makes their expression of group solidarity and pride in their heritage inherently dangerous, and for non-whites inherently positive?

Because it is in the interest of the people that want whites dead.

Pride is necessity to fight for things, it's valuing and promoting something. Elites propagate culture that only allows pride of other races, as well as gays and transgenderism.

By not allowing say, a white pride parade, they are saying to whites: you are alone, you are without power and even if you fought for it, nobody would honor you.

It isn't true, but that's the message sent with pride & parades. If you control morality, you control most things in a society.

 

[GS 281]

I like to copypaste my longposts, too.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Actually, this would make for a great reality show. Get the most stereotypical representatives of each type of white American person and make them all live in a house together. Have like, an Irish-American, an Italian-American, a Scandinavian-American, a Southern Baptist, a Mormon..

There was room for individual niches of whiteness. One of the big lies of multiculturalism is that it lets everybody be themselves, a better expression of themselves. Like many things in our clown world the reverse is true. The more you are with people like you, the more you are possible at being yourself.

Americans became white from italian-catholic, protestant-irish etc, due to being more and more outnumbered by nonwhites. When you're born in new york, you regard it as considerably different from someone from new jersey. You meet the same person in italy and you say: hey, a fellow american. You meet an italian in Gambia and you say: hey, a fellow white. Well, you don't because you've been taught that particular one is bad.

You meet someone on mars from gambia and you say: hey a fellow human.

You sort into less-personally identifying groups as you get into groups that are more diverse (using diverse in original sense, not modern anti-white sense).

Because that same new york guy wasn't american, or white or human in his block, he was the guy that made jokes about cars at parties.

The more diverse groups get, the more everyone is stereotyped, the more people do not understand each other, the more we have to communicate superficially. This isn't just in racial, also significantly in culture/religion and even sex.

 

[nagant 1895]

The East/West schism presents an interesting dichotomy to be sure but to answer your immediate question Shakespear is one of the inspirations of Turgenev and Pushkin and a subject of criticism for Tolstoy. He plays were published. taught in schools and staged even in the Soviet era. (source: https://collation.folger.edu/2017/03/archives-shakespeare-ussr/ ). The average Russian immigrant to the U.S.A. would recognize "E tu Brute" or "Romeo Romeo"

I guess you could chalk it up to people finding what they want to find but I do see a lot of commonalities in lifestyle and faith between whites. In fact the only real stratification I encounter is more economic than national-origin based. I don't know how you'd feel if you saw what I saw, but honestly it makes me a little sad to notice everything turning into one big flavorless mess.

I would also watch that show.
(please forgive if that link is messed up I'm new here)

 

[NOT Sword Fighter Super]

Anyone who thinks White Americans aren't allowed to express ethnic pride has never been in South Boston for the St. Patrick's Day parade. (Unless you're not counting Irish people as white).

Yeah, but the Irish have never really been accepted as being white. They got it just as hard as any other non white ethnic group that came to America. I'm pretty sure they're the reason the term "white niggers" exists.

 

[Krokodil Overdose]

Yeah, but the Irish have never really been accepted as being white. They got it just as hard as any other non white ethnic group that came to America. I'm pretty sure they're the reason the term "white niggers" exists.

Not really true, it's more accurate to say that they were white trash avant la lettre. NINA was a thing, but they were never considered non-white for the purpose of (say) anti-miscegenation laws. They were just regarded as shit-tier whites for the longest time, like the Italians (who, like them, were ethnic and PAPISTS GET OUT REEEEEEE)

 

[ICametoLurk]

You see, you can tell who is in charge by who allows people to bitch about them. By bitching about Whites they are showing that Whites are the boss, and when Whites bitch about Jews then Jews are the boss.

It's a Progressive Racial Hierarchy.

 

[Lensherr]

exceptional individual

the same "argument" applies to 'black pride' and pretty much every single other minority identity movement exactly as it does to whites.
you're literally perpetuating and engaging in the exact same practice of double standards and anti white line of thinking that OP is calling out, probably without even realizing it due to how heavily you are indoctrinated with it

The main argument that I've heard about as to why black pride is okay but white pride is not is because American blacks are descended from people who were forcibly removed from their homelands, and thus have no ties to them as a result, so the only the thing that they have in common is that they're from Africa. Most whites on the other hand came to the country voluntarily, so they did remember their homelands and passed on their specific traditions to their descendants.

Of course, this doesn't mean that people of European descent have no shared cultural background between them that they can celebrate, and all of the different white ethnic groups that immigrated to America have all become very mixed together to the point where whites share more in common with each other than ever before, not to mention DNA testing technology has advanced to the point where it's very easy to determine one's country(ies) of origin. It's why I find this argument to ring very hollow and simply an attempt to perpetuate said double standards and anti-white mindset.

 

[nagant 1895]

The main argument that I've heard about as to why black pride is okay but white pride is not is because American blacks are descended from people who were forcibly removed from their homelands, and thus have no ties to them as a result, so the only the thing that they have in common is that they're from Africa. Most whites on the other hand came to the country voluntarily, so they did remember their homelands and passed on their specific traditions to their descendants.

That's kind of the weird thing about Americans though. all 4 of my grandparents came from the same non-america country and you would never know it by talking to any of their descendants. They assimilated quietly and with great difficulty into white culture despite: 1- not being white and 2 - living in economically depressed region where, at least by percentage of people white was not the dominate race. I don't have any of their "specific traditions" now any more than I would have had if my grandparents had been dragged here in chains. I got parented and educated to have the same bland yet pleasant and polite white culture as most people with nothing more "specific" than my middle name.
Maybe that's the rub? the deracinated feelings that current year whites have plus the bizarre restrictions on being proud of any small scraps of identity they still cling to.

 

[Slap47]

You see, you can tell who is in charge by who allows people to bitch about them. By bitching about Whites they are showing that Whites are the boss, and when Whites bitch about Jews then Jews are the boss.

It's a Progressive Racial Hierarchy.

I don't think whites are allowed to bitch about Jews.

 

[Lensherr]

That's kind of the weird thing about Americans though. all 4 of my grandparents came from the same non-america country and you would never know it by talking to any of their descendants. They assimilated quietly and with great difficulty into white culture despite: 1- not being white and 2 - living in economically depressed region where, at least by percentage of people white was not the dominate race. I don't have any of their "specific traditions" now any more than I would have had if my grandparents had been dragged here in chains. I got parented and educated to have the same bland yet pleasant and polite white culture as most people with nothing more "specific" than my middle name.
Maybe that's the rub? the deracinated feelings that current year whites have plus the bizarre restrictions on being proud of any small scraps of identity they still cling to.

There's definitely less push now for immigrants to assimilate in white countries than there was before. Just look at the Muslim communities in Europe and how they seem to exist in their own separate nations within nations. Victor Davis Hanson points out in this video how immigration to America worked in the past vs. how it's being advocated for today, and comes to the conclusion that having a controlled number of immigrants per year coming from a diverse source of countries mixed with a policy of assimilation is the key to it being maximally beneficial for both the immigrants and the host country:

 

[Ashy the Angel]

Anybody who unironically whines about not being able to freely express White pride at least in America is ignoring that whiteness as a concept was literally invented in order to create a convenient class hierarchy where one group would be able to have power over the other. At its inception whiteness was not some benevolent means of classification. It was created purposefully to oppress whoever needed to be oppressed purely for economic and social reasons, hence why the Irish weren't considered white for many years in America. The classification is kept purposefully vague in order to expand or shrink as necessary. If you ask three different white nationalists who classifies as "white" you'll get three different answers.

Nobody gives a shit if you have German pride, Irish Pride, Italian pride, etc. But white pride as a concept is irrevocably linked with ideas like slavery, colonialism, and the hardcore boner white nationalists have for creating white ethnostates through the displacement and/or murder of non-whites. Things like black pride don't carry that same stigma because the history of black people has a huge 400 year hole in it called the Atlantic slave trade that Europeans don't have, at least not to such a great extent.

There's also this flawed notion that other ethnic groups in America advocating for their own interests is something that will explicitly harm whites. Most non-white people I know just want to live their lives same as anyone else. What are these "interests" that are so antithetical to America? What does the average black, hispanic, asian or native person want that would hurt white Americans? On the flip side, anytime "white interests" are brought up it seems to always include reducing the number of nonwhites in the country through nonviolent or violent means. If "white interests" didn't so often coincide with removing, enslaving or murdering anyone darker than a scoop of vanilla ice-cream it wouldn't carry such a stigma. You have to remove all context and blank out large swaths of history to be even able to make this argument.

When people partake and promote "white culture" they are essentially creating a link between disparate things for purely superficial purposes, whether it be a neo-nazi seeking to LARP as a Norse god or a pimply twitter fash account using a Greek statue for a profile pic. When you have an identity that exists purely for political purposes and was used to subjugate the cultures that now grow and outnumber yours it will be hard for the average person to find pity, even a white guy. When you choose to identify with and LARP as a group that carved up the modern world and contributed directly to the very conditions that are now causing non-whites to flock to "your" country, any sob story you pull about not being able to celebrate your identity is diminished greatly. This is why black pride isn't treated like white pride is. When your ancestors decided to create a classification out of thin air just because they didn't want to pick their own cotton you got put in the hole and you'll be digging yourself out for the next few hundred years.

The truth is...the game was rigged from the start.

 

[Poiseon]

Anybody who unironically whines about not being able to freely express White pride at least in America is ignoring that whiteness as a concept was literally invented in order to create a convenient class hierarchy where one group would be able to have power over the other. At its inception whiteness was not some benevolent means of classification. It was created purposefully to oppress whoever needed to be oppressed purely for economic and social reasons, hence why the Irish weren't considered white for many years in America. The classification is kept purposefully vague in order to expand or shrink as necessary. If you ask three different white nationalists who classifies as "white" you'll get three different answers.

Nobody gives a shit if you have German pride, Irish Pride, Italian pride, etc. But white pride as a concept is irrevocably linked with ideas like slavery, colonialism, and the hardcore boner white nationalists have for creating white ethnostates through the displacement and/or murder of non-whites. Things like black pride don't carry that same stigma because the history of black people has a huge 400 year hole in it called the Atlantic slave trade that Europeans don't have, at least not to such a great extent.

There's also this flawed notion that other ethnic groups in America advocating for their own interests is something that will explicitly harm whites. Most non-white people I know just want to live their lives same as anyone else. What are these "interests" that are so antithetical to America? What does the average black, hispanic, asian or native person want that would hurt white Americans? On the flip side, anytime "white interests" are brought up it seems to always include reducing the number of nonwhites in the country through nonviolent or violent means. If "white interests" didn't so often coincide with removing, enslaving or murdering anyone darker than a scoop of vanilla ice-cream it wouldn't carry such a stigma. You have to remove all context and blank out large swaths of history to be even able to make this argument.

When people partake and promote "white culture" they are essentially creating a link between disparate things for purely superficial purposes, whether it be a neo-nazi seeking to LARP as a Norse god or a pimply twitter fash account using a Greek statue for a profile pic. When you have an identity that exists purely for political purposes and was used to subjugate the cultures that now grow and outnumber yours it will be hard for the average person to find pity, even a white guy. When you choose to identify with and LARP as a group that carved up the modern world and contributed directly to the very conditions that are now causing non-whites to flock to "your" country, any sob story you pull about not being able to celebrate your identity is diminished greatly. This is why black pride isn't treated like white pride is. When your ancestors decided to create a classification out of thin air just because they didn't want to pick their own cotton you got put in the hole and you'll be digging yourself out for the next few hundred years.

The truth is...the game was rigged from the start.

You're not @Ron /pol/

You're troll posts are too long, too detailed, and so over the top re-tarded that no one finds it funny. Stop trying so hard.

 

[Varg Did Nothing Wrong]

whiteness as a concept was literally invented in order to create a convenient class hierarchy where one group would be able to have power over the other

What does the average black, hispanic, asian or native person want that would hurt white Americans?

In order:

1. Gibsmedats
2. Give us back our land, white devil
3. Asians hurt white Americans (and Canadians and Australians) with direct actions, not shitty gay crying
4. Gib reparations for the injun tribes you slaughtered 200 years ago

But white pride as a concept is irrevocably linked with ideas like slavery, colonialism, and the hardcore boner white nationalists have for creating white ethnostates through the displacement and/or murder of non-whites.

Yes only white racists can be openly supporting of genocide for other races that aren't their skin color. That's why you never ever ever hear of blacks or mexicans talking wistfully about the days when white people will finally go extinct or when they can finally become numerically superior and will be able to start oppressing whites the way they feel they're being oppressed now.

The only thing "irrevocably linking" white pride to that, while not linking "black pride" or "hispanic pride" to those things is spin and propaganda and which parts you want to highlight.

anytime "white interests" are brought up it seems to always include reducing the number of nonwhites in the country through nonviolent or violent means.

Why is it OK for nonwhites to want to increase the number of nonwhites in the country through nonviolent (or violent, sometimes) means?