Atheism Containment Thread

[Rabbit Bones]

My uncle is a catholic missionary. He spent almost 20 years in Peru. In that time, he funded clean drinking water wells, helped build medical clinics in small villages, and was almost defrocked because he would make sure the medical clinic always had condoms. He opened a school. He stayed in Peru with his village when the Shining Path were making it a point to capture missionaries and kill them. He spent several weeks in a Peruvian jail because he refused to allow the police to rob the food pantry he had built up for his people when they were in need. He actually got out because after he found out how little Peruvian police were paid, he offered to help them. He has since "retired" to become a teacher at a school in Mexico City, another place where being a white guy isn't exactly great for you. He could have been assigned to a church someplace safe, but he said it's his calling to help those in need, weather or not they believe in his God.

Fuck outspoken atheist. If you don't want to believe in God, that's your right. I'm personally an agnostic. But acting like every aspect of religion is harmful or shows a lack of intelligence from the believer is unwarranted arrogance. Religions have been the root of a lot of pain and suffering in the world, but they've also done a lot of good. There are people with hard, depressing lives who need to believe that there's more than this life, and trying to take that away from them, or trying to make them question it, is vile.

 

[Mister Lister]

My girlfriends brother is a militant atheist, at least in the sense that he spends countless hours watching Richard Dawkins debates. One of those guys who finds any excuse to bring up how stupid religious people are, thinks they retarded sheep, claims science is the only way to think etc. etc.

He claims that science is the only way to view the universe. Which yes, I suppose I would agree with. But while I don't personally believe that God exists, I still believe there is a chance of him existing until we prove otherwise, and until that time it would be stupid of me to state either opinion as fact. Such is the true way of science.

Flat out denying something exists because you think it is 'a close-minded way of thinking' is such an incredibly close-minded way of thinking that it makes my hypocrisy glands explode.

 

[Dudeofteenage]

My uncle is a catholic missionary. He spent almost 20 years in Peru. In that time, he funded clean drinking water wells, helped build medical clinics in small villages, and was almost defrocked because he would make sure the medical clinic always had condoms.

So just for the record, this is your justification for why religion is awesome, right?

 

[CatParty]

So just for the record, this is your justification for why religion is awesome, right?

I'm personally an agnostic.

 

[Rabbit Bones]

He claims that science is the only way to view the universe

I hate when they say this. There are millions of people who believe in a god, and still believe in science. Creationists and bible literalnests are a very, very new and very tiny group in the world, and amazingly, they're both mostly based in America.

 

[Watcher]

Creationists and bible literalnests are a very, very new and very tiny group in the world, and amazingly, they're both mostly based in America.

Creationists as a concept have existed for much longer than America. The same with taking the bible as literal gospel. They also exist in other countries. Largely parts of Africa that have extremely large Christian populations.

Things like the literal reading of Genesis and Noah's flood has stunted a lot of the growth of science for a long time.

 

[Mister Lister]

There are millions of people who believe in a god, and still believe in science.

If i remember rightly, good old Charlie Darwin spent a very long time trying to make it so his findings on evolution still fit in with the Christian ideas of God. Something along the lines of God having created simple creatures that were capable of developing and evolving up from his original basic designs.

Hell even Einstein hated being thought of as atheist, and much preferred considering himself agnostic.

 

[Rabbit Bones]

So just for the record, this is your justification for why religion is awesome, right?

I'm not saying all religions are awesome. I'm saying that a lot of religious people are. Nuns and missionaries do so, so much for the communities they're sent to. There are hundreds of religious groups aimed at helping the disenfranchised. Churches help build communities and support systems for people who may otherwise not have them. Religion itself can give hope and comfort to people who need it the most. I find it very depressing that (in American anyway) religion is used as an instrument by the government to oppress people and further their own agendas (Trying to ban abortions and teach creationism in school, for example). I also said religion has caused terrible things. The crusades were inexcusable, for example. So I'm not looking at this in a black and white way. But to me anyway, most religions are stories that uplift people. And I don't see anything wrong with a person feeling better about themselves because they think an old man in the clouds is happy with them.

I was raised orthodox Catholic, where the role of a woman is to shit out as many babies as possible and die without too much fuss. I still believe in a god, just not one that created me to be a fetus factory. And I haven't found an organized religion that delegate women to much more than that, at heart. So yeah, agnostic all the way.

Creationists as a concept have existed for much longer than America. The same with taking the bible as literal gospel. They also exist in other countries. Largely parts of Africa that have extremely large Christian populations.

Things like the literal reading of Genesis and Noah's flood has stunted a lot of the growth of science for a long time.

I guess I need to preface all of this by saying I was raised orthodox Catholic, which is a very strict and strange religion. To them, the bible was not something meant for the masses. It was deemed to be the word of the lord, and only a priest was qualified to interpret it. People didn't have access to the bible to believe every word of it like they do now, they had to rely on their priests interpretation and what parts of it he chose to use.

There are a lot of Catholics in Africa. And in large part, we have missionaries to thank for that. Just as I think missionaries can do good, they can also do bad. Forcing natives to profess to believe in a Catholic God in exchange for food and education was a horrible thing to do. They were black mailing people into their fold, and that was disgusting. To me, my uncle is the example of what a missionary should be. He didn't try and convert anyone, he just helped them improve their lives and gave them the option of coming to mass and being baptized. That's how it should have always been done. But what was done was done, for better or worse.

And yeah, Noahs Ark. That's one of those stories that get kind of fucky. It's a story almost identical to a part of the Epic of Gilgamesh, which I believe is older than the bible is. Maybe there was some kind of flood... most religious stories originate from a very small part of the world. When people don't understand something, they try and explain it. Attributing God to killing all the bad people with a flood would seem plausible to the people who survived it.

I sincerely believe that most religions were founded to explain things people didn't have the science to understand at the time. What's that glowing thing in the sky? Well, it's the sun and it rotates around our flat earth. At the time, that seemed completely plausible. We know better than that now, and while I don't have numbers to back it up, I can't imagine there are that many religious people who would disagree with that. I don't discredit that there may be a god, but I completely accept science as a reality. I believe that everything in the universe can be explained scientifically, once we have the technology to do so. What we've done already is amazing, and it's sad that creationists turn their backs on it. I think most creationists are scared of what they don't understand, and it's just easier for them to think dinosaur bones were put in the earth by the devil and all of humanity came from two white people who got tricked by a snake.

 

[Watcher]

My uncle is a catholic missionary. He spent almost 20 years in Peru. In that time, he funded clean drinking water wells, helped build medical clinics in small villages, and was almost defrocked because he would make sure the medical clinic always had condoms. He opened a school. He stayed in Peru with his village when the Shining Path were making it a point to capture missionaries and kill them. He spent several weeks in a Peruvian jail because he refused to allow the police to rob the food pantry he had built up for his people when they were in need. He actually got out because after he found out how little Peruvian police were paid, he offered to help them. He has since "retired" to become a teacher at a school in Mexico City, another place where being a white guy isn't exactly great for you. He could have been assigned to a church someplace safe, but he said it's his calling to help those in need, weather or not they believe in his God.

Fuck outspoken atheist. If you don't want to believe in God, that's your right. I'm personally an agnostic. But acting like every aspect of religion is harmful or shows a lack of intelligence from the believer is unwarranted arrogance. Religions have been the root of a lot of pain and suffering in the world, but they've also done a lot of good. There are people with hard, depressing lives who need to believe that there's more than this life, and trying to take that away from them, or trying to make them question it, is vile.

Don't take this as a sign of disrespect. Since I do appreciate the things your Uncle has done. But the problem is I don't credit these things to the religion. I credit it to the person.

You don't need to be a Christian to do charity. There are plenty of atheist charities in the world. I prefer to thank the person and not the religion.

But acting like every aspect of religion is harmful or shows a lack of intelligence from the believer is unwarranted arrogance. Religions have been the root of a lot of pain and suffering in the world, but they've also done a lot of good. There are people with hard, depressing lives who need to believe that there's more than this life, and trying to take that away from them, or trying to make them question it, is vile.

I don't see this as a benefit to religion. Religions have always tried to give an answer to what happens after you die inorder to extort money out of people.

I'm an atheist that prefers to specifically target individuals who choose to take the Bible literally and who want to extort money out of people. I think everyone is entitled to their beliefs. But while there are Atheists who target people who believe, for every one of them there are 10 Christians who would target me for not believing.

And yeah, Noahs Ark. That's one of those stories that get kind of fucky. It's a story almost identical to a part of the Epic of Gilgamesh, which I believe is older than the bible is. Maybe there was some kind of flood... most religious stories originate from a very small part of the world. When people don't understand something, they try and explain it. Attributing God to killing all the bad people with a flood would seem plausible to the people who survived it.

Noah's ark goes back much farther before that. There were a lot of old great flood stories at the time in parts of Mesopotamia like Sumeria. All of these older flood stories differ wildly in terms of how many people survive and how big the Flood exactly is. Since the older ones describe the flood as much more localized (and of a depth of only 21 feet. Which makes sense in Iraq but not globally). And of lots of people surviving. Some of them like the Greek version describe people surviving on mountain tops. The character of Noah and the ark was a much more recent invention. It's wildly determined that the "great flood" is based on a big local flood in Iraq thousands of years ago that had people rescue their animals and families on boats. And because it coincided to people developing writing at the same time the story eventually morphed into a piece of mythology.

I sincerely believe that most religions were founded to explain things people didn't have the science to understand at the time. What's that glowing thing in the sky? Well, it's the sun and it rotates around our flat earth. At the time, that seemed completely plausible. We know better than that now, and while I don't have numbers to back it up, I can't imagine there are that many religious people who would disagree with that. I don't discredit that there may be a god, but I completely accept science as a reality. I believe that everything in the universe can be explained scientifically, once we have the technology to do so. What we've done already is amazing, and it's sad that creationists turn their backs on it. I think most creationists are scared of what they don't understand, and it's just easier for them to think dinosaur bones were put in the earth by the devil and all of humanity came from two white people who got tricked by a snake.

I don't see why we should continue to have religion if it was used to describe things we already know the answer to.

 

[c-no]

Don't take this as a sign of disrespect. Since I do appreciate the things your Uncle has done. But the problem is I don't credit these things to the religion. I credit it to the person.

You don't need to be a Christian to do charity. There are plenty of atheist charities in the world. I prefer to thank the person and not the religion.


I don't see why we should continue to have religion if it was used to describe things we already know the answer to.

Yeah, as far as the religion and charity thing, the person would deserve credit since they do take their time to help (which would depend on motives, would it not?)

As for continuing to have religion that describes things we already know the answer to, some of it may be ignorance to the answer and the other may just be keeping up some sort of tradition. I could be wrong though.

 

[Watcher]

As for continuing to have religion that describes things we already know the answer to, some of it may be ignorance to the answer and the other may just be keeping up some sort of tradition. I could be wrong though.

It's largely tradition. I hear a lot of atheists still go to Church exclusively for the social aspect despite not actually believing in God.

 

[CatParty]

i think the problem is too many euphoric athiests in this thread

 

[c-no]

i think the problem is too many euphoric athiests in this thread

The thread itself is about atheist fitting the mold of a lol-cow, not about religion and how it helps and hinders. The discussion on religion should be for something like Deep Thoughts.

 

[Rabbit Bones]

Don't take this as a sign of disrespect. Since I do appreciate the things your Uncle has done. But the problem is I don't credit these things to the religion. I credit it to the person.

You don't need to be a Christian to do charity. There are plenty of atheist charities in the world. I prefer to thank the person and not the religion.

No, I think we're having a civil discussion and you're allowed to express your opinion A lot of what my uncle did DID go against his religious vows. The condoms were a big thing, since birth control is frowned on by the Catholic church. But my uncle understood how dangerous it was for a woman to be pregnant in some of these villages and the quality of life they and their children had. I think my uncle is an amazing man because he IS an amazing man who legitimatize wants to help people, not because he was a priest. He was willing to risk being defrocked to do what he thought was right for his people. He took the word of Jesus very close to his heart, and that's what he lived by. 'Love your neighbor as yourself' and all that. In my eternal optimism, I like to think all missionaries are like him, instead of just looking for souls to save, but I know that isn't really the case. But in his case, he felt the best way he could help people was by doing it through the lord, and I respect that.

As far as atheist charities and organizations, they deserve just as much praise as any other group that helps people. One of my friends is a Humanism who runs a home for LGBT teens who have been kicked out of their homes for coming out. She does excellent work. People who devote their lives to helping others are amazing people, and they deserve for praise for what they do, be it secular or non-secular based.

I don't see this as a benefit to religion. Religions have always tried to give an answer to what happens after you die inorder to extort money out of people.

Not all religions expect money. The ones that do are usually the ones you should avoid. TV evangelists, mandatory tithes, pay for pray... all of that is a scam. Most churches pass a collection plate and you give what you can to help fund your church and its events. But if someone is telling you that you're obligated to send them money or you're going to hell, or you're not invited to service, it isn't a church, it's a cult and you need to run. The bible says that It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God. That doesn't necessarily mean give your money to your church. In my interpretation, it advocates being generous and helping people with what you have an excess of. I happen to be broke as a joke, but I still volunteer my time to a few organizations. Not because I feel obligated to, but because I think it's important to help people. And since I don't have a wealth of money but I do of time, that's how I do it.

Noah's ark goes back much farther before that. There were a lot of old great flood stories at the time in parts of Mesopotamia like Sumeria. All of these older flood stories differ wildly in terms of how many people survive and how big the Flood exactly is. Since the older ones describe the flood as much more localized (and of a depth of only 21 feet. Which makes sense in Iraq but not globally). And of lots of people surviving. Some of them like the Greek version describe people surviving on mountain tops. The character of Noah and the ark was a much more recent invention. It's wildly determined that the "great flood" is based on a big local flood in Iraq thousands of years ago that had people rescue their animals and families on boats. And because it coincided to people developing writing at the same time the story eventually morphed into a piece of mythology.

Can't even try and argue with you on any of this. The only exposure I have to any of these sorts of stories is the bible, and the Epic of Gilgamesh because he came up in a world history 101 class in college. But by and large, I take most of the world changing stories in the bible as just that; stories. I don't think Noahs Ark is based in any sort of reality. It makes no sense for a vast number of reasons, all of which you probably already know.

I don't see why we should continue to have religion if it was used to describe things we already know the answer to.

Personally, I believe in God because I find it comforting. I like the idea that after I die, I'll go to a place where I'll get to see my grandma and grandpa and all my pets who have passed away. I like the idea of being able to spend eternity in a peaceful place with the people I love. I don't use it to explain anything... people far more intelligent than I am are working in labs doing that for us.

In my opinion, if you're using the bible to justify things that science has proven or disprove, you're delusional. The bible and most religious creationism stories were based in explaining the world and nature, but we KNOW about the world and nature now. We don't need to use it for that anymore. And. If you're using the ten commandments as the logic behind not killing someone, you're dangerous and need psychological help. There are a lot of good moral lessons in the bible, but some things you shouldn't have to be told.

But yes. Overall, I agree with a lot of the logic behind atheism. But think there are aspects of religion that can really benefit society. The sad fact is, we're never going to get to that perfect ratio... religion still has far too much influence on American politics and that needs to be scaled WAY back. But that's going to be hard. A lot of really religious people are kind of... well... dumb

Yeah, as far as the religion and charity thing, the person would deserve credit since they do take their time to help (which would depend on motives, would it not?)

But my uncle chooses to attribute his charity to God calling him to do it. I don't agree with that, but it's his logic and I can only assume he really believes it, because he's done a lot of really selfless stuff.

Also, sorry about derailing the other thread and getting everyone off topic tags. It wasn't my intention

 

[Johnny Bravo]

Assuming all religion is evil makes about as much sense as assuming every non-Jew living in Nazi Germany was evil. The world just isn't that simple.

In the same way, asking why there's still religion when we have science is just as stupid as asking why we still have racism when there's a black president. People don't work like that. MIB said it best:

 

[dabluearmedbandit]

People who think they know for a fact that there is no God should shut the fuck up, there's no way to know that.

People who think they know for a fact that there is a God should shut the fuck up, there's no way to know that.

 

[Rabbit Bones]

Spoiler: So totally about me I'm cutting just to be safe

I was an angry atheist for many years. I hated God. I went to an Orthodox Catholic middle and elementary school. When I came out of it at 8th grade, I could barely read and write, knew nothing of history, science or math, but I knew a ton about the bible and God and had my missal memorized. And I was bitter. I had to struggle to fit nine years of learning into 9th grade. I had to take remedial classes. I thank God that I'm kind of smart... by the end of the year I was reading, writing, knew some basic history and science, and just managed to eek by my algebra class. By my senior year I was in almost all AP classes. I took a few years off to work as a vet tech before I went to college, and I never got below a 3.8 GPA. I would now consider myself a reasonably intelligent person, even though I still struggle with grammar and conveying my thoughts verbally sometimes. But I was still bitter, and I was angry at God for having put me at such a disadvantage. Eventually though, I realized the anger was what was ruining my life, not god. God didn't fly down from heaven and tell my parents to put me in a cult school. And as cheesy as it sounds, I softened my heart. I began to find peace again. I don't think I'll ever be in an organized religion again. Womens roles in religions are always those of a lesser than, and I won't allow myself to be disrespected that way ever again. I also can't take the bible seriously, outside of certain parts that are basically morality stories that shit like Sesame Street and Bubbleguppies do a better job of conveying anyway. But I've come to reject the vengeful god I was raised on, and find comfort in a benevolent God. I have a lot of health problems, but I don't pray for them to be fixed. Just like God didn't send me to that school, he isn't come to come cure me. I had to work to better my life. So just like with school, I work very hard with my doctors and therapists on my self improvement, and I try to be a good person. What I consider a good person, not what some book considers a good person.

The problem, in my mind anyway, is that neither group ever really considers the other. Most atheists know very little about the major religions apart from the basic stuff, and most religious people labor under the impression that all atheists are devil worshipers. Both sides have their pros and cons, and thankfully there IS a lot of overlap between the two extremes. There are plenty of religious scientists, and there are plenty of humanitarian atheists. All of us want the same basic thing, to leave happy, love filled lives and for those around us to have the same. Some people just take different paths to get there.

 

[Dudeofteenage]

I was raised orthodox Catholic, where the role of a woman is to shit out as many babies as possible and die without too much fuss. I still believe in a god, just not one that created me to be a fetus factory. And I haven't found an organized religion that delegate women to much more than that, at heart. So yeah, agnostic all the way.

I guess to me it's just really hard to separate the phenomenon of religious belief from the phenomenon of organised religion. You're quite right about lots of religious people doing good things, but I think that even a lot of the people you would see as annoyingly over-the-top atheists would agree with you. It's possible to believe religion is bad without believing every religious person is bad.

 

[☻]

Why does this thread exist? It is titled atheism containment thread, which is inherently militant as a title, the OP discusses why his relative is great for helping those in need despite the religious views of those in need, and then OP rants about militant atheists. I can only see this thread leading to bawwing, hate, and off-topic discussion.

Are we trying to discuss why militant atheism is a problem, how it is a problem, or how to solve the problem? Also, religion can only answer why, whereas science cannot. It can only answer how, what, where, etc. Don't try to be a dipshit and take this out of context, I obviously mean that science cannot answer why a ball falls, only explain how it does it, why the sun exists/rises/sets, but it can answer how, or a why that is just a reworded how. Therefore, there's no reason for fedora atheists to argue about religion because there is no way to prove or disprove it with science.

 

[HG 400]

It is titled atheism containment thread, which is inherently militant as a title.

Agreed, should have been called the atheist honeypot thread.

+1 to OP