#Comicsgate - The Culture Wars Hit The Funny Books!

[A nameless trool]

I first learned about TUG through WW, so I feel like I'm not really qualified to do TUG justice with respect to his CG antics. I do hope you find somebody though.

Also, I'm glad you just said that here, because somebody in this thread is likely gonna be the best candidate to fix it. Not WW.

When I first heard a TUG video I was certain it was an AI creating CG videos and using the preset "southern pedo" for the voice to text function

my reasoning for that was because not only is he selling volume 4 for ten dollars in the campaign but he is also selling a 240 page omnibus for a 25 dollar price tag. He has got to be losing money out of that deal.

But, yes as a consumer, I have no complaints at all and will take a 240 page book for 25 dollars all day over a 48 page for the same price,

The most expensive part in creating a comic is the artists fee, which is an one-off. Shipping comes second, printing third.
If the comic is produced once, reprints is what makes you money.

 

[Captain Manning]

Because your not a cultist. Relatively disposable entertainment should have a commensurate price.

I don't really consider KA to be disposable or even "relatively disposable." Not compared to the Marvel capeshit I bought as a kid. Have you held copies of KA3 and BH+KA in your hands? They're really quite beautifully put together. These are almost "collector grade" works now, I'd say.

My point here is this:

I don't think you can distill much of anything from the difference in Tim's price point, and what a majority of CG is charging. Not without first seeing a balance sheet. It could be that CG is making vastly greater profit per book (they're certainly making more revenue in a few cases), but it could also be that Tim has built a considerably greater amount of efficiency into his production and distribution process. To say that he's making only half of a what a CG project would make, per book, is idle speculation driven by the erroneous belief that costs associated with different crowdfunded projects must be identical. That's just silly.

What I DO speculate is that Tim's lower price point (with commensurate greater sales) is gonna continue to pay dividends in the future. He's growing a fan base, and its not consigned to just CG. He's getting the weebs and the unwashed masses that probably thought they'd never look at a comic again. I don't think Tim wants to have a market of just "whales."

The most expensive part in creating a comic is the artists fee, which is an one-off.

In this case, Tim is the artist. LOL.

 

[A nameless trool]

In this case, Tim is the artist. LOL.

This is why he can sell so low then. Instead of a flat fee he is willing to be paid on his royalties.

 

[Greed]

CG's disdain for competent writing and editing has led to an endless succession of duds and derivative storytelling.

You saying sensible shit like this is going to make it real hard for me to a-log you. Cut it out.

Writing has been the elephant in the room for years. Frog pines for the popularity of manga, but sees stuff like Chainsaw Man and simply thinks "that's like wolverine but with chainsaws, we can do that!" without understanding that this really has nothing to do with why people enjoy something like Chainsaw Man. Then he'll turn around and criticize people who put emphasis on writing and character development, you know, the reason people actually enjoy something like Chainsaw Man. He'll reassure us that his comics are all about machismo and action, before once again reminding us that Cyberfrog's primary tonal inspiration is The Walking Dead, a series almost exclusively about slow-burn writing and character development.

Because I feel ISIS and Al Qeada present a much bigger threat to America than whatever stupid shit dangerhairs are doing in the comics industry

While I get your point, I actually do believe that far-left social terrorists present a far greater threat to the fabric of the nation than a bunch of obscure goat fuckers in a third world desert who left to their own devices would have nothing to do with us. To me, poking fun at the often-retarded anti-sjw crowd will never supersede mocking sjw's themselves. One group are using their time poorly and being somewhat intellectually disingenuous. The other side wants to fuck kids and destroy society. There's no comparison.

 

[FROG]

You saying sensible shit like this is going to make it real hard for me to a-log you. Cut it out.

Writing has been the elephant in the room for years. Frog pines for the popularity of manga, but sees stuff like Chainsaw Man and simply thinks "that's like wolverine but with chainsaws, we can do that!" without understanding that this really has nothing to do with why people enjoy something like Chainsaw Man. Then he'll turn around and criticize people who put emphasis on writing and character development, you know, the reason people actually enjoy something like Chainsaw Man. He'll reassure us that his comics are all about machismo and action, before once again reminding us that Cyberfrog's primary tonal inspiration is The Walking Dead, a series almost exclusively about slow-burn writing and character development.

I might be getting sick of KiwiFarms. Postings like this are pure cancer.

Yeah, I'm out for awhile. At least of this thread. I'm more interested in Brianna Wu writing The GamerGate Saga TV movie.

 

[Greed]

I might be getting sick of KiwiFarms. Postings like this are pure cancer.

Yeah, I'm out for awhile. At least of this thread. I'm more interested in Brianna Wu writing The GamerGate Saga TV movie.

If a mild criticism like that was enough to set you off, you needed a break anyway. Sorry for the honest criticism. I'll switch over to making tired pizza parlor insinuations like everyone else here.

EDIT: Look, I know you’ve had a long couple of days with the closeout streams, but you’re taking this way too personally. Media evolves. So does the way it’s consumed and the role it plays in people’s lives. People nowadays don’t need to read comics to see cool shit. They can watch a movie or play a video game if they want to see cool character designs and set pieces. Comics can no longer get by on simply showing people cool shit. Put simply, if modern comics want to hold their own against other forms of media, they must deliver a superior presentation, and part of that is good writing. I know you may already realize this, but the aforementioned conflicting statements cause me to question that.

At the end of the day, the harshest criticism I can give you is that I read your comics because I like you; because I think you’re a gifted entertainer with a keen eye for human behavior, and I’m constantly hoping some of that might seep into your work, which it often does. This shouldn’t be your goal. Your goal should be for me to want to read Cyberfrog even if I hate Ethan Van Sciver, because Cyberfrog is just so damn enrapturing that I can’t picture living without it. This is the grip Star Wars has on people, to the extent that they can openly insult their fans and still sell them product. As wrong as Edwin is about most things, he’s absolutely correct that comic artists’ built-in aversion to valuing writing has become a major roadblock for comics. I’ll co-opt that stance no matter who it’s coming from.

 

[SaidNoOneEver]

I might be getting sick of KiwiFarms. Postings like this are pure cancer.

Yeah, I'm out for awhile. At least of this thread. I'm more interested in Brianna Wu writing The GamerGate Saga TV movie.

Anything to avoid drawing, amirite?

 

[FROG]

If a mild criticism like that was enough to set you off, you needed a break anyway. Sorry for the honest criticism. I'll switch over to making tired pizza parlor insinuations like everyone else here.

EDIT: Look, I know you’ve had a long couple of days with the closeout streams, but you’re taking this way too personally. Media evolves. So does the way it’s consumed and the role it plays in people’s lives. People nowadays don’t need to read comics to see cool shit. They can watch a movie or play a video game if they want to see cool character designs and set pieces. Comics can no longer get by on simply showing people cool shit. Put simply, if modern comics want to hold their own against other forms of media, they must deliver a superior presentation, and part of that is good writing. I know you may already realize this, but the aforementioned conflicting statements cause me to question that.

At the end of the day, the harshest criticism I can give you is that I read your comics because I like you; because I think you’re a gifted entertainer with a keen eye for human behavior, and I’m constantly hoping some of that might seep into your work, which it often does. This shouldn’t be your goal. Your goal should be for me to want to read Cyberfrog even if I hate Ethan Van Sciver, because Cyberfrog is just so damn enrapturing that I can’t picture living without it. This is the grip Star Wars has on people, to the extent that they can openly insult their fans and still sell them product. As wrong as Edwin is about most things, he’s absolutely correct that comic artists’ built-in aversion to valuing writing has become a major roadblock for comics. I’ll co-opt that stance no matter who it’s coming from.

I definitely need a break. It's frustrating to read such poor misreadings of my agenda and attitudes and have them called criticism, and KF isn't the place to answer with sincerity. "Ethan pines for the popularity of manga but has an aversion to writers!"

I don't pine for the popularity of manga. I'm overwhelmed with gratitude for the thousands of backers who fund my projects, and who buy my stuff on eBay. It's more than enough and I feel content. I'm not looking for more. I'm glad to be where I am. CYBERFROG has a nice following and is successful enough to pay for the life I want to live.

I don't claim that CYBERFROG is about "machismo and action" nor to I have an aversion to writers or good writing. The book is about a lot of things that feel important to me, like family, fear and anger, service and duty, and friendship. I'm capable of learning to write, and I'm going to do it myself. The entire story is already in my head, and as I go on, I'll improve in telling it. Until I am excellent. The idea that I don't care or don't value story over visual images, as though I'm not aware of what comics can be, is so insulting that it's mildly depressing.

But that asshole SaidNoOneEver is right. Talking about it is the opposite of doing it. I gotta go.

 

[TESTEFY-HD]

Good Morning, Good Evening, and Good Night #COMICSGATE!

 

[UncleFuckAss]

This thread is 1691 pages of proof that comics are dead and at this point people are just fucking the corpse.

 

[Mister Dongs]

What I DO speculate is that Tim's lower price point (with commensurate greater sales) is gonna continue to pay dividends in the future. He's growing a fan base, and its not consigned to just CG. He's getting the weebs and the unwashed masses that probably thought they'd never look at a comic again. I don't think Tim wants to have a market of just "whales."

I suspect the truth is a lot simpler - Lim is a doctor in his day job and simply doesn't rely on the income of being a manga artist the way that a professional (or aspiring professional) does for making a living wage. He can personally afford to charge low prices now towards the end of growing a fan base later, which if you can do it makes good sense. But fellow Iconic Comics creators like Doug Ernst (who is now a full time comic creator) and now Eric Canete are still charging $25 for a comic.

The $25 price point has more to do with unavoidable costs like the flat cost of shipping an individual parcel. You could charge $2-$3 for a comic online and $5-10 to ship it, like Peter Simeti is doing with bringing Alterna Comics' pre-ordering system to crowdfunding, but don't be surprised when customers don't hop all over something where 2/3rds of what they buy is shipping the comic itself.

$25 seems to be an acceptable price point to the customer, but where Comicsgate generally struggles is to value-add a single comic to where its worthy of that price point and be worthy of repeat business. There are a few ways around this for, ah, 'developing creators', like retail distribution, or ordering multiple comics from a vendor where the total amount purchased is around ~$20-$30 (like what Iconic Comics, Alterna, Frog's eBay store, etc do), but these have all problems of their own, especially if you're a debuting creator and do not have an existing body of work to sell multiple things from. Not getting into guys like Jon Malin selling a book of traced Frazetta artwork for $25, or Patrick Thomas Parnell in general. SJWs have their own solution where they dump all their trash into a single comic anthology where 25 people make no money, but Comicsgate has been reluctant to hop on the "no money" solution.

 

[Captain Manning]

I don't pine for the popularity of manga.

I mean, you do and you don't.

I don't know if you pine for your own enterprise to be as big as manga, but I think you do pine for the days when the American comics industry had its shit together. You did a very nice livestream where you went over what manga is doing right and what American comics are doing wrong.

One of the things I admire about you is that your position on manga's displacement of comics in the U.S. market is more Ronald Reagan than United Auto Workers. IOW, you correctly state that if comics are getting their ass kicked, it's incumbent upon Americans to unfuck themselves. You're not attacking consumers for choosing manga over comics (like die hard comic fanboys would), and you're not making demands on manga (like SJWs in comics are apparently starting to).

But then you also say fucktarded shit like Tim's manga-inspired art style is "creepy" and all but imply him and Mark are pedos, and that kinda puts a damper on my appreciation of your insight into these sort of things.

In the end, yeah, maybe you should take a break. You were flinging stupid shit last month, and now you seem to be pretty thin-skinned.

Mind you, I should remind everyone that you are currently in a lawsuit against two FAGGOTS and that could be weighing on you somewhat. I earnestly hope you can dispense with the aforementioned faggots in short order. Fuck them. You have nothing but sympathies from me there.

I'm more interested in Brianna Wu writing The GamerGate Saga TV movie.

You're defecting to an even older and less relevant gate? The grandfather of all culture war gates? Ooof!

 

[Newman's Own]

I think somebody like @Newman's Own, @Strix454 or @Smug Freiza would do a wonderful job fixing this shit. How 'bout it guys?

I've forgotten more than I care to remember of TUG lore. @VIkkiVerse knows the tale of TUG's mailbox and the epic of his wife's WarCampaign catfishing adventures far better than I. Not to mention his doxing games played against Vikki herself.

I'm content to remember that TUG is a waste of skin and move on to greener pastures. He's completely off my radar.

With the benefit of hindsight, I feel like other people made Renfamous bigger than she herself did. Both in terms of CG and WW.

Without the leadership of CG taking Ren seriously she would have gained no traction with her people or the CG faithful and would have moved on to other things to garner attention.

At least that's the way I heard it. Maybe Joe Quesada made her a star before Ethan decided a thrift store cosplay SJW was an existential threat worthy of mobilizing thousands against but I don't think so.

A cape story without a big bad isn't much of a cape story.

Not to mention TUG's udders ran dry over a year ago. Sure sperging about Johnny Depp everyday is fucking retarded, but it's hardly worth archiving or talking about.

What Freiza said.

I notice that Rekieta has a bottle of Makers Mark placed very prominently on the bookshelf behind him, yet he was giving Ethan Ralph shit for Makers Mark being a staple of the Gunt.

Makers got me started drinking buorbon and while it's not my favorite it's a worthwhile whisky.

Then he has to worry about paying for fulfillment which takes away from his bottom line. So in short, he has to do double the work for half the money.

Only a true blue ComicsGay aficionado would criticize a creator for consistently providing twice as much content and charging half as much per book because he wasn't taking full advantage of his pay piggies.

I suppose Lim would be a better comics provider if he was pulling down $100/customer because he used a designer box, added a window sticker and a book mark like all true blue comics fans are demanding.

Reaching a bigger and bigger audience by putting out regular high quality product at a great price is for suckers.

If you ask me, CG is overcharging for their books. Now, I firmly believe you can and should charge what the market will bare, but it's also worth noting that a higher price point might be necessitated by (and indicative of) smaller margins (i.e. expenses being higher).

True enough. Charging twice as much may also be indicative of an expected smaller customer base.

If you're expecting less way less backers you need the higher price to pay for artists, letters, colors and the rest. It's economy of scale and if you produce half as many units with the same production costs you have to pass those costs onto the consumer to break even or squeak out a profit.

While I get your point, I actually do believe that far-left social terrorists present a far greater threat to the fabric of the nation than a bunch of obscure goat fuckers in a third world desert who left to their own devices would have nothing to do with us. To me, poking fun at the often-retarded anti-sjw crowd will never supersede mocking sjw's themselves. One group are using their time poorly and being somewhat intellectually disingenuous. The other side wants to fuck kids and destroy society. There's no comparison.

This.

You sound like a Scott Horton fan.

I might be getting sick of KiwiFarms. Postings like this are pure cancer.

Yeah, I'm out for awhile. At least of this thread. I'm more interested in Brianna Wu writing The GamerGate Saga TV movie.

Smarten up everyone. This is supposed to be a hug box.

I'm capable of learning to write, and I'm going to do it myself.

You sound like Nasser. Writing is a trade like carpentry. The best way to go pro is to apprentice and learn what you don't know.

The world is full of self-taught writers no one reads because they all make the same mistakes from lack of training. A formal education isn't necessary but an education definitely is.

All that aside, I'm sure you're heartfelt wingeing and self promotion will not go unmissed here where everyone is just to insulting and mean.

See you tomorrow.

 

[Rupin]

I've forgotten more than I care to remember of TUG lore. @VIkkiVerse knows the tale of TUG's mailbox and the epic of his wifes WarCampaign catfishing adventures far better than I.

I'm content to remember that TUG is a waste of skin and move on to greener pastures. He's completely off my radar.


Without the leadership of CG taking Ren seriously she would have gained no traction with her people or the CG faithful and would have moved on to other things to garner attention.

At least that's the way I heard it. Maybe Joe Quesada made her a star before Ethan decided a thrift store cosplay SJW was an existential threat worthy of mobilizing thousands against but I don't think so.

A cape story without a big bad isn't much of a cape story.


What Freiza said.


Makers got me started drinking buorbon and while it's not my favorite it's a worthwhile whisky.


Only a true blue ComicsGay aficionado would criticize a creator for consistently providing twice as much content and charging half as much per book because he wasn't taking full advantage of his pay piggies.

I suppose Lim would be a better comics provider if he was pulling down $100/customer because he used a designer box, added a window sticker and a book mark like all true blue comics fans are demanding.

Reaching a bigger and bigger audience by putting out regular high quality product at a great price is for suckers.


That. Charging twice as much may also be indicative of an expected smaller customer base.

If you're expecting less way less backers you need the higher price to pay for artists, letters, colors and the rest. It's economy of scale and if you produce half as many units with the same production costs you have to pass those costs onto the consumer to break even or squeak out a profit.


This.

You sound like a Scott Horton fan.


Smarten up everyone. This is supposed to be a hug box.


You sound like Nasser. Writing is a trade like carpentry. The best way to go pro is to apprentice and learn what you don't know.

The world is full of self-taught writers no one reads because they all make the same mistakes from lack of training. A formal education isn't necessary but an education definitely is.

All that aside, I'm sure you're heartfelt wingeing and self promotion will not go unmissed here where everyone is just to insulting and mean.

See you tomorrow.

right, but the crux of the argument was that his campaign was better because he had more backers. Selling at a lower price might be great for Tim since he can afford it, not everyone is going to be able to sell a book for 10 dollars or a 240 page omnibus for 25. That business model is going to have you losing money hand over fist and that‘s why he has to go to Amazon and IC to sell his books. But if you take a campaign like Godlike which has a similar number of backers but with twice the money, then who is really winning? Anyway, 25 dollars for a crowdfunded comic is pretty much the norm whether the book is CG or not. As long as customers are willing to pay $25 for a book than that’s on them. Complaining about it here only makes you look stupid.

 

[Dr. CoffinNails]

Thanks again for that. That was very helpful.

Nice "spooky icon". That movie was horrible though.

 

[Newman's Own]

right, but the crux of the argument was that his campaign was better because he had more backers.

The crux of what he said is that Tim attracts more READERS.

The crux of your criticism is that your butthurt because "Asian Eye-Doctor BAD".

Selling at a lower price might be great for Tim since he can afford it, not everyone is going to be able to sell a book for 10 dollars or a 240 page omnibus for 25.

Tim makes money on volume. He can afford it because he's building an audience instead of milking a small pool of pay piggies.

But if you take a campaign like Godlike which has a similar number of backers but with twice the money, then who is really winning?

Fanboys overpay for Malin's uninspired comics because they love Malin. Customers pay for Tim's Kamen books because they are an objectively good deal.

I guess Malin's fans are winning to but only because they think him soaking them is proof that he's a winner and they're on team Malin. If Malin wins by milking the suckers the suckers feel like they won because Malin "won". Funny stuff.

' When Malin squeeze's a hundred bucks out of me for a 48 page floppy I win because Malin wins. Woof Pack for Life!!!! '

As long as customers are willing to pay $25 for a book than that’s on them. Complaining about it here only makes you look stupid.

I'm not complaining. I think it's hilarious. Give him all your money and you'll get no complaints from me.

Did Tim touch you in your bikini area unsolicited or something?

When you just can't get enough "pure cancer".

 

[Rupin]

The crux of what he said is that Tim attracts more READERS.

The crux of your criticism is that your butthurt because "Asian Eye-Doctor BAD".


Tim makes money on volume. He can afford it because he's building an audience instead of milking a small pool of pay piggies.


Fanboys overpay for Malin's uninspired comics because they love Malin. Customers pay for Tim's Kamen books because they are an objectively good deal.

I guess Malin's fans are winning to but only because they think him soaking them is proof that he's a winner and they're on team Malin.

' When Malin squeeze's a hundred bucks out of me for a 48 page floppy I win because Malin wins. Woof Pack for Life!!!! '


I'm not complaining. I think it's hilarious. Give him all your money and you'll get no complaints from me.

Did Tim touch you in your bikini area unsolicited or something?

where have I ever said that Tim Lim was bad? I backed his book and I also backed Jon’s so, I am a fan of both creators. I am just saying that Tim’s business model is not going to work for most people. He might be building an audience because his books are cheaper but, he is only getting half the money. Meanwhile, John has also built a similar sized audience and he is raking in twice the amount. It matters how much money your book brings in. That’s the whole point of crowdfunding.

 

[Newman's Own]

I am just saying that Tim’s business model is not going to work for most people.

No one asked. Someone just drew a comparison where he was beating ComicsGay on a single metric and you had to rush to defend CG honor with the 'soaking suckers for more money is better than getting your book out to more people defense'.

We get it. You're Woof Pack for life.

Forgive me if I find it amusing.

He might be building an audience because his books are cheaper but, he is only getting half the money.

Perhaps an ever growing audience is more important to Tim than maximizing his cash-out on pay piggies like a CG creator. I know you think that's doing it wrong because he could be soaking them for more and getting less readers but maybe he cares more about his readership more than his short term bottom line.

Meanwhile, John has also built a similar sized audience and he is raking in twice the amount. It matters how much money your book brings in. That’s the whole point of crowdfunding.

It's important to Malin. I get that. What I don't get is why it's so important to you.

Yay team I guess...

 

[Rupin]

No one asked. Someone just drew a comparison where he was beating ComicsGay on a single metric and you had to rush to defend CG honor with the 'soaking suckers for more money is better than getting your book out to more people defense'.

We get it. You're Woof Pack for life.

Forgive me if I find it amusing.


Perhaps an ever growing audience is more important to Tim than maximizing his cash-out on pay piggies like a CG creator. I know you think that's doing it wrong because he could be soaking them for more and getting less readers but maybe he cares more about his readership than his short term bottom line.


It's important to Malin. I get that. What I don't get is why it's so important to you.

Yay team I guess...

it’s only common sense that making more money is better than getting your book out to more people for less than half the price your competitors are charging. But… whatever floats your boat dude.

 

[Mister Dongs]

the new model for comic creators looking to make non-manga indie comics

​

1: get a medical doctorate and start a practice so you can make comics and don't have to care about if they make money or not​

2: ditch the western comics style completely and draw anime waifus​