#Comicsgate - The Culture Wars Hit The Funny Books!

[Newman's Lovechild]

I feel more comfortable a-logging about a fat prick goading hundreds of simpletons into handing him their money, as long as I know I'm not a-logging about who drew the best guy in green tights.

But that still doesn't put him on cow level, in my humble opinion.

Ethan's advantage is that his perceived cow level is somewhere about here, and all those fuckwits you listed are way up here. But the average person's cow level is still down there.

I say perceived because Ethan has a rare, narcissism-fuelled self-awareness for a cow. He's wrapped himself in a shell of plausible deniability by getting most of those fuckwits to haul the cow load for him. Even among people who know he has done this kiwis especially it seems to let him scrape by with a pass.

I always said, this is why he had to clasp Nasser and JDA back to his bosom. He might have toned down the gayops after the WC divorce, but the organ grinder still needs a pair of dancing monkeys to distract the crowd.

Comic art is supposed to look cool, not correct.

Those times when you say things, hoping it'll add credibility to your argument.

The comic industry is the story of countless talented artists who died poor and in obscurity. I don't think it's the burn you think it is to point to guys like Bill Finger or Jerry Siegel and say "Hey they didn't sell out by pandering to the masses" or whatever.

I don't think it's the defence you think it is to put Bill Finger and Jerry Seigel on a lesser level than the latter-day Bob Kane: Ethan 'Bree Larson is a feminazi quick send youtube bucks' Van Sciver.

It's not about the product, I mean if you take a look at what videos are most popular on EVS channel none of them are actually about his books just outrage bait. It's great that Frog is successful but its not at marketing his art or product it's outrage, and from that perspective it's why "better artists" are not as successful with their online footprint as EVS which is what this whole autistic conversation spiraled out of. I did not think so many people would be taken aback by that fact.

Feels, man. It's like some weird spell the frog manages to cast even on the farms. Some other CGers and FMers don't seem to dodge as much flak for their transparently cynical cash-in books. The only things that raise Cyberfrog above shit like The Littlest Umbrella or Stealing Solo, from a purely artistic standpoint, are the fact that Ethan once worked at DC and he makes prettier pictures than most. Just don't ask him to draw a room Like the YT view counts you posted suggest, that pales in comparison to Cyberfrog's role as merch for Ethan's outrage channel. Every copy a fucking war bond for the struggle against muh EssJayDoubleus.

Ethan will never represent anything greater than himself.

Ethan doesn't think there is anything greater than himself.

it just doesn't seem to be what the majority of potential viewers are into. And the first rule of selling anything is going where the customers are. If you aren't willing to do that, maybe being responsible for selling your own product isn't for you and instead you should work on your "lovebombing" Mags Visaggio skills so you don't get accused of psychic rape in a dream from one of the nutbags who got an in via Warren Ellis' casting couch.

Such an extreme dichotomy. Is there no middle ground where you can promote your comic without falling back on rimming the SJWs, or shrieking from your bully pulpit about them?

It's not the first time I've heard the complaint either that the comics themselves are becoming a form of merchandise of the online persona either

I hear similar complaints that the guy elected to be a new pope always turns out to be a catholic. And those fucking bears, always shitting in the woods.

The real problem that comes up is people that are very good at marketing themselves find it way easier to just get someone to superchat them a hassle-free 25 bucks instead of going through the process of creating and fulfilling an actual product.

Eagerly waiting for someone to explain how this makes Ethan one of the best comic creators of modern days.

 

[9th legion centurion 002]

@COMMI3 MARK Please tell me the only reason you let Liam Gray on your show was to milk the lolcow.. This guy is pro cancel culture and a blight upon the indie comic scene, people shouldn't be platforming him anymore.

 

[Newman's Own]

@COMMI3 MARK Please tell me the only reason you let Liam Gray on your show was to milk the lolcow.. This guy is pro cancel culture and a blight upon the indie comic scene, people shouldn't be platforming him anymore.

It's @COMMI3 MARK channel he can share it with Pol Pot if he wants. Telling him who he should and shouldn't platform is some cancel culture bullshit.

That said, everyone should be platforming Liam so long as he keeps supplying this forum with high quality hilarity.

To bad Pol Pot is dead Mark. He was one of the all time great genocidal socialists and would have made an excellent guest on your show.

 

[A nameless trool]

Someone mentioned Greg Capullo earlier. He's drawn differently and at one point he'd became a McFarlane clone for a while. Good Artists evolve and they have a technique. Watch Ethan's videos on drawing.

I did.
He drew like Liefeld (only better) on X-Force, like McFarlane on Spawn (and actually evolved his style) and he drew in the DC house style in Batman.
Did them all exceptionally well, because he is a great artist.

EVS feels like a bargain bin McFarlane
Or a based Gail Simone that can actually make good comicbooks.

It's @COMMI3 MARK channel he can share it with Pol Pot if he wants. Telling him who he should and shouldn't platform is some cancel culture bullshit.

That said, everyone should be platforming Liam so long as he keeps supplying this forum with high quality hilarity.

To bad Pol Pot is dead Mark. He was one of the all time great genocidal socialists and would have made an excellent guest on your show.

When I see SJWs on twitter, I am certain Pol Pot was a visonary who foresaw the deliquency of intellectual fake-commies. Most of left wing twitter belongs on a killing field.
And it is not just me, The Dead Kennedys were singing about it in the early 80's in the punk classic "Holiday in Cambodia"

 

[Newman's Own]

When I see SJWs on twitter, I am certain Pol Pot was a visonary who foresaw the deliquency of intellectual fake-commies. Most of left wing twitter belongs on a killing field.
And it is not just me, The Dead Kennedys were singing about it in the early 80's in the punk classic "Holiday in Cambodia"

Yeah, the high point in Pot's political career was when he was running low on "disidents" so he ordered the murder of anyone wearing glasses.

He was a real hero to the people.

 

[Mister Dongs]

I don't think it's the defence you think it is to put Bill Finger and Jerry Seigel on a lesser level than the latter-day Bob Kane: Ethan 'Bree Larson is a feminazi quick send youtube bucks' Van Sciver.

Why not? Bill Finger died broke, struggling to pay medical bills after two decades of working for a low page rate with no IP rights while Batman goes into its eighth decade as a global phenomenon. But I'm sure he cranked out a lot more work than Frog did during his decades of working as an unaccredited low-paid contract writer with very little creative freedom on the billion-dollar property he created. Again, I really doubt you're going to have success in shaming anyone by taunting them that they didn't lead a career like Bill Finger's (or any number of legendary artists) no matter how much betterer you think their work was than Frog's.

Such an extreme dichotomy. Is there no middle ground where you can promote your comic without falling back on rimming the SJWs, or shrieking from your bully pulpit about them?

I already pointed out Dave Finch on this page. You should check out his channel since it's everything you say you want, and he has a true gift when it comes to teaching art. Frankly, a lot of aspiring creators could learn a lot from how he makes engaging, professional youtube content.

Personally, I have a phronetic stance of what the "correct approach" to Comicsgate as a movement is: whatever works with Zack's original goal (but by no means a unanimous one) of preventing gatekeepers from blacklisting and cancelling creators, or interfere with customers buying the content they'd prefer, is the correct one. I might think Captain Marvel a-log content or Doug TenNapel's latest "What does Jesus have planned for the Donald?" streams are stupid as shit, but if they succeed and Chateau Obsidian #4 that closed today fails to fund, that's how things are. If JDA trolling online and making 70s inspired Christian crusader/furry catgirl comics and rallying fans behind the idea of comics promoting theocracy or whatever was raking in millions and Frog was doing interviews on Rosetta Allen's channel, in my estimation JDA would have the objectively correct opinion and the JACK show should be turned into a prayer circle where they would pray to God and/or Jon for deliverance.

 

[Newman's Own]

Zack's original goal (but by no means a unanimous one) of preventing gatekeepers from blacklisting and cancelling creators, or interfere with customers buying the content they'd prefer, is the correct one.

If that's the goal than CG is an abject failure.

Comics is still a huge industry with the potential to reach millions of customers in the US alone.

CG reaches a few thousand, only sells to people comfortable with forking out $25 for 48 pages and provides work around to the gatekeepers for less than ten actual pros at present.

I'm pretty sure the content people in CG would prefer in 2018 didn't include a cute talking cats book.

Calling it a movement in 2018 made sense. Calling it a movement now is a joke. Movements grow. CG hasn't. ComicsGate is now a boutique marketing group serving Ethan's YouTube fans, a few comics geeks pissed off at the mainstream and TUG's audience. That's not a movement. Sure Ethan and a few others are making money off the fumes of what CG might have been but what Zach's original goal was is never going to happen. The alternative to the mainstream has to be of a significant size or it's just a fringe web community incestuously buying each others stuff.

Movements move. No one is joining anymore in real numbers and if a movement isn't growing it's dying.

It's over. What remains is a sweet little deal for a few people but let's not confuse that with Zach's lofty goal of a credible alternative to the mainstream. That doesn't exist. If it did 500 backers wouldn't be considered a resounding success.

CG is a weird little corner of the larger indy comics movement now.

It's a shame. It was a good idea.

 

[Mister Dongs]

Yes, the goal of circumventing blacklisting has failed because... let's see, Starlight Cats exists and people bought it. Also, mainstream comics could "potentially" reach millions, a number that CG has failed to eclipse. Thank you Newman's Own for another incredible contribution to this thread.

 

[A nameless trool]

If that's the goal than CG is an abject failure.

Comics is still a huge industry with the potential to reach millions of customers in the US alone.

CG reaches a few thousand, only sells to people comfortable with forking out $25 for 48 pages and provides work around to the gatekeepers for less than ten actual pros at present.

I'm pretty sure the content people in CG would prefer in 2018 didn't include a cute talking cats book.

Calling it a movement in 2018 made sense. Calling it a movement now is a joke. Movements grow. CG hasn't. ComicsGate is now a boutique marketing group serving Ethan's YouTube fans, a few comics geeks pissed off at the mainstream and TUG's audience. That's not a movement. Sure Ethan and a few others are making money off the fumes of what CG might have been but what Zach's original goal was is never going to happen. The alternative to the mainstream has to be of a significant size or it's just a fringe web community incestuously buying each others stuff.

Movements move. No one is joining anymore in real numbers and if a movement isn't growing it's dying.

It's over. What remains is a sweet little deal for a few people but let's not confuse that with Zach's lofty goal of a credible alternative to the mainstream. That doesn't exist. If it did 500 backers wouldn't be considered a resounding success.

CG is a weird little corner of the larger indy comics movement now.

It's a shame. It was a good idea.

CG, as established by YBZ was a movement where:

• All people were welcome to go to a comicstore and buy a new comicbook they like every week
• Customers should be respected
• The IP and the legacy of superhero comics should be respected by the current holders
• Everyone should be able to compete in the direct market

That movement has died along with the direct market.

To EVS, CG is a lifeboat to save comics from the impeding cataclysm (that has come).

Movements always get splintered into smaller currents, as people joining have different ideas on where to go once the initial flood loses some momentum. This is CG in 2021

 

[FROG]

Why not? Bill Finger died broke, struggling to pay medical bills after two decades of working for a low page rate with no IP rights while Batman goes into its eighth decade as a global phenomenon. But I'm sure he cranked out a lot more work than Frog did during his decades of working as an unaccredited low-paid contract writer with very little creative freedom on the billion-dollar property he created. Again, I really doubt you're going to have success in shaming anyone by taunting them that they didn't lead a career like Bill Finger's (or any number of legendary artists) no matter how much betterer you think their work was than Frog's.



I already pointed out Dave Finch on this page. You should check out his channel since it's everything you say you want, and he has a true gift when it comes to teaching art. Frankly, a lot of aspiring creators could learn a lot from how he makes engaging, professional youtube content.

Personally, I have a phronetic stance of what the "correct approach" to Comicsgate as a movement is: whatever works with Zack's original goal (but by no means a unanimous one) of preventing gatekeepers from blacklisting and cancelling creators, or interfere with customers buying the content they'd prefer, is the correct one. I might think Captain Marvel a-log content or Doug TenNapel's latest "What does Jesus have planned for the Donald?" streams are stupid as shit, but if they succeed and Chateau Obsidian #4 that closed today fails to fund, that's how things are. If JDA trolling online and making 70s inspired Christian crusader/furry catgirl comics and rallying fans behind the idea of comics promoting theocracy or whatever was raking in millions and Frog was doing interviews on Rosetta Allen's channel, in my estimation JDA would have the objectively correct opinion and the JACK show should be turned into a prayer circle where they would pray to God and/or Jon for deliverance.

That's interesting...why mention Chateau Obsidian? Never heard of it until now.

My only objective is to be able to draw CYBERFROG and make a lot of money, in spite of having been cancelled and slandered as a bigot. I don't care about other artists or writers in mainstream comics. The entire industry just seems like a lot of cruel or cowardly people wasting their lives to me. And it seems like it's on it's last legs.

Am I entertaining 11,000 people with upwards of $25 each to spend on my work? That's all I'm interested in.

I enjoy having complete creative control over my Frog comics, and that will never change. I prefer my characters, and my art and story, to what is being offered in the mainstream right now, so I sell them with sincerity and self confidence. A lot of people are genuinely excited to collect CyberFrog stuff, so I must be doing something right. And I feel like it's going to grow.

I also love being a YouTuber, or a radio personality. All of this is just fun. Can't imagine why people are hating. Envy, I guess.

 

[TheCosmicWarrior]

Ethan Van Sciver is the definitive Green Lantern artist. Full stop.

All of this is just fun.

Literally the entire point of the entertainment business. And if you're having fun, the audience has fun. It's symbiotic.

 

[Crescent Fresh]

That's interesting...why mention Chateau Obsidian? Never heard of it until now.

My only objective is to be able to draw CYBERFROG and make a lot of money, in spite of having been cancelled and slandered as a bigot. I don't care about other artists or writers in mainstream comics. The entire industry just seems like a lot of cruel or cowardly people wasting their lives to me. And it seems like it's on it's last legs.

Am I entertaining 11,000 people with upwards of $25 each to spend on my work? That's all I'm interested in.

I enjoy having complete creative control over my Frog comics, and that will never change. I prefer my characters, and my art and story, to what is being offered in the mainstream right now, so I sell them with sincerity and self confidence. A lot of people are genuinely excited to collect CyberFrog stuff, so I must be doing something right. And I feel like it's going to grow.

I also love being a YouTuber, or a radio personality. All of this is just fun. Can't imagine why people are hating. Envy, I guess.

I think the mention of Chateau Obsidian serves to illustrate how the “movement” is going lately.

According to CG Tracker, in the entire year of 2020, only twelve projects that marked themselves as CG actually failed. Eleven if you don’t count Aldrake, which funded and then couldn’t deliver.

How many in 2021 have already failed to fund, in the first three months? Eight, with another seven effectively doomed to join them in April.

And is any of this your fault? Absolutely not, again, you’re just one person/channel. However, it speaks to this “movement” really not having the kind of power it once had. Last year, a CG project could fly under your radar and still have an incredible chance of being funded, whereas now there’s so much going on that unless a project manages to catch your (or one of the other slightly smaller names’) eyes, it’s far, far more likely to die on the vine.

To put it in simpler terms, CG projects in 2020 had an astonishing 8% failure rate, while CG projects in 2021 have a failure rate of 21% and dropping.

Of course, the elephant in the room here is that CG has already reached half of last year’s project count in only the first three months, an insane 72 compared to last year’s 148 total. It would appear that the bubble of CG is set to truly pop… for the smaller creators, that is.

 

[Newman's Own]

Yes, the goal of circumventing blacklisting has failed because... let's see, Starlight Cats exists and people bought it.

You're good with a strawman Dongs.

CG failed because it stalled and died as a "movement' sometime around 2019 or 2020. If it hadn't it would have grown. It didn't and now it's boutique sales of crowd funded comics to a few people who watch certain YouTube channels.

Starlight Scat is just an illustration of how far it is from 'Zach's vision'.

To EVS, CG is a lifeboat to save comics from the impeding cataclysm (that has come).

A few thousand people watching YouTube and buying glorified merch isn't 'saving comics'.


Ethan summed it up well enough in his latest Kiwi Farms CyberFrog ad above...

Am I entertaining 11,000 people with upwards of $25 each to spend on my work? That's all I'm interested in.

That's ComicsGate.

 

[Unverified]

That's interesting...why mention Chateau Obsidian? Never heard of it until now.

My only objective is to be able to draw CYBERFROG and make a lot of money, in spite of having been cancelled and slandered as a bigot. I don't care about other artists or writers in mainstream comics. The entire industry just seems like a lot of cruel or cowardly people wasting their lives to me. And it seems like it's on it's last legs.

Am I entertaining 11,000 people with upwards of $25 each to spend on my work? That's all I'm interested in.

Got a question for you. Something I've been thinking about that I'd like your take on. Would you prefer, for example, to make:

$10,000 from 100 backers
or
$5,000 from 200 backers?

And is there a point where one outweighs the other? Backer count vs. total funds raised. Because I notice in CG that most of the focus is on dollar amount when it comes to measuring campaigns. I totally understand that in terms of gratification for both the campaigner and the audience, as you get to see that bar and number tick up on the IGG refresh. It's become part of the Youtube experience. But sometimes a campaign that is "less successful" than another in funds actually has a higher backer count. So the person with less money is actually reaching a larger audience. Curious about your thoughts on this.

EDIT: Chopped off the top of my post somehow.

 

[FROG]

I think the mention of Chateau Obsidian serves to illustrate how the “movement” is going lately.

According to CG Tracker, in the entire year of 2020, only twelve projects that marked themselves as CG actually failed. Eleven if you don’t count Aldrake, which funded and then couldn’t deliver.

How many in 2021 have already failed to fund, in the first three months? Eight, with another seven effectively doomed to join them in April,

And is any of this your fault? Absolutely not, again, you’re just one person/channel. However, it speaks to this “movement” really not having the kind of power it once had. Last year, a CG project could fly under your radar and still have an incredible chance of being funded, whereas now there’s so much going on that unless a project manages to catch your (or one of the other slightly smaller names’) eyes, it’s far, far more likely to die on the vine.

To put it in simpler terms, CG projects in 2020 had an astonishing 8% failure rate, while CG projects in 2021 have a failure rate of 21% and dropping.

Of course, the elephant in the room here is that CG has already reached half of last year’s project count in only the first three months, an insane 72 compared to last year’s 148 total. It would appear that the bubble of CG is set to truly pop… for the smaller creators, that is.

I could turn that around in a month if I wanted to.

I could promote more and drag more small creators along with me, but it's time to let these little birdies fend for themselves. We've explained many, many times that building an audience is vital to crowdfunding, and that takes time and energy. It's frustrating that so few care enough to put the effort in on their own behalf. So this bubble burst is going to happen, and it'll end up being a nice wake up call. The best of the bunch will be fine.

Got a question for you. Something I've been thinking about that I'd like your take on. Would you prefer, for example, to make:

$10,000 from 100 backers
or
$5,000 from 200 backers?

And is there a point where one outweighs the other? Backer count vs. total funds raised. Because I notice in CG that most of the focus is on dollar amount when it comes to measuring campaigns. I totally understand that in terms of gratification for both the campaigner and the audience, as you get to see that bar and number tick up on the IGG refresh. It's become part of the Youtube experience. But sometimes a campaign that is "less successful" than another in funds actually has a higher backer count. So the person with less money is actually reaching a larger audience. Curious about your thoughts on this.

EDIT: Chopped off the top of my post somehow.

I'd rather have $10,000 from 100 backers. The entire point of crowdfunding is to raise the money to make the product. It isn't the totality of readership of CYBERFROG. So if 100 backers can give me the money to print 2000 comics, that's fine. I will reach another 1900 readers with a finished product.

 

[jspit2.0]

View attachment 2033008

@COMMI3 MARK Please tell me the only reason you let Liam Gray on your show was to milk the lolcow.. This guy is pro cancel culture and a blight upon the indie comic scene, people shouldn't be platforming him anymore.

STFU you, the more Liam the better. Thank you for the meal Commie.

I did.
He drew like Liefeld (only better) on X-Force, like McFarlane on Spawn (and actually evolved his style) and he drew in the DC house style in Batman.
Did them all exceptionally well, because he is a great artist.

I don't know he ever went full Liefeld like he did Todd. He's actually talked about it, back when artists could actually talk in public freely.

EVS feels like a bargain bin McFarlane
Or a based Gail Simone that can actually make good comicbooks.

Oof, that's a head shot there.

I don't care about other artists or writers in mainstream comics. The entire industry just seems like a lot of cruel or cowardly people wasting their lives to me. And it seems like it's on it's last legs.

You worked with these people for almost thirty years and you don't care about them. Wow....

 

[Unverified]

I'd rather have $10,000 from 100 backers. The entire point of crowdfunding is to raise the money to make the product. It isn't the totality of readership of CYBERFROG. So if 100 backers can give me the money to print 2000 comics, that's fine. I will reach another 1900 readers with a finished product.

Interesting. Thanks for the insight; I see your point there.

It's frustrating that so few care enough to put the effort in on their own behalf.

Agree 100%. In regards to that Chateau Obsidian book... I saw it mentioned maybe once or twice on Twitter? Other than that, it's a complete mystery to me. And I'm relatively clued in to crowdfunding and back *a lot* of books, even lesser-known ones. At the risk of sounding arrogant, if I don't know about your shit, you're not promoting nearly hard enough or your book doesn't look good enough to make an impact.

 

[A nameless trool]

Starlight Scat is just an illustration of how far it is from 'Zach's vision'.

I believe that people have a very selective idea of "Zach's vision".
Zack's vision was "give me good, mainstream comics and treat me with respect". He would go as far as to say "this comic was good and I liked it" or "it was not for me" for indie stuff similar to Starlight Cats. He often talks about some artsy comics he likes, hell, he once praised about a GN about Rasputtin and it went out of stock on Amazon within some hours.
Just some hours ago, he posted this: https://www.youtube.com/post/Ugy5oLGJKei4L-UVqTd4AaABCQ

He went as far as to defend James Gunn before EVS told him to clap because their side took a scalp in the culture war.
He even promoted a Joe Glass kickstarter that he thought was cool.

His main problem is damn faggots listening only the term 'SJW' and praising him for the fearless leader of based consoomers he is. The trve Zack Comicsgate exists only in your heads (living rent free next to its killer, EVS)
YBZ's vision will sort of become a reality once by 2022 when the comicbook industry becomes a market for boutique collectibles with few mass market titles by competent creatives, simply because the "flood the shelves" model no longer works.
When everybody tells you that the person you call a cow is not a cow, you are becoming the cow. And a boring cow to boot.

I don't know he ever went full Liefeld like he did Todd. He's actually talked about it, back when artists could actually talk in public freely.


Oof, that's a head shot there.

Spoiler: He succeeded Liefeld in X-Force, then went to do Spawn

 

[COMMI3 MARK]

@COMMI3 MARK Please tell me the only reason you let Liam Gray on your show was to milk the lolcow.. This guy is pro cancel culture and a blight upon the indie comic scene, people shouldn't be platforming him anymore.

My biggest regret was not playing the "gaaaay" overlay at the end of that clip.

To bad Pol Pot is dead Mark. He was one of the all time great genocidal socialists and would have made an excellent guest on your show.

Would have probably been less controversial.

CG reaches a few thousand, only sells to people comfortable with forking out $25 for 48 pages and provides work around to the gatekeepers for less than ten actual pros at present.

The $25 price point is going to be a casualty of 2021. I haven't done the data leg work to back up my claims and I'm basing it purely on observations of people who've been desperate hungry enough to come to my channel to promote but I'm confident that the average price per book has fallen this year.

If there was a way to d/l creator Go as an xml file or some shit i'm sure the data would back that up (and go someway to explaining the lower overall funds that campaigns 'seem' to be making). Please someone own me and prove I am wrong by providing the actual data...

CG projects in 2020 had an astonishing 8% failure rate, while CG projects in 2021 have a failure rate of 21% and dropping.

Like this but for prices.

But sometimes a campaign that is "less successful" than another in funds actually has a higher backer count. So the person with less money is actually reaching a larger audience. Curious about your thoughts on this.

I know that I turned more profit on Best Korea than many campaigns that raised higher totals.

The people who can take a whisp of half an idea, and singlehandedly craft that into a comic simultaneously filling all the roles of artistic production by themselves are the true winners. Their only cost is time - the rarest of all resources.

And I'm relatively clued in to crowdfunding and back *a lot* of books, even lesser-known ones. At the risk of sounding arrogant, if I don't know about your shit, you're not promoting nearly hard enough or your book doesn't look good enough to make an impact.

You've heard of my books right? I realise we both post here but apparently @NasserRabadi13 has "never heard of Commi3 Mark" either

 

[9th legion centurion 002]

Looks like the Orange Shitstain strikes again. I have a feeling this is just the beginning..