Communism and Socialism Debate Thread

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Carlson

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Transplanting from here to avoid too long of a derail.

Why would they want to do that if the commune already provided them with everything for working 20 hours a week? (or even less, who knows)

Also, how would they profit without money?

But how do you provide all of that when only working 20 hours a week? Where on Earth is there a modern society that can survive on everyone working just a few hours a day? Definitely not an agricultural nation.

People need incentive to work. Never in human history have people worked for no reason other than to provide for a commune; they got money or privileges or the ability to survive. Even the hunter-gatherer societies work because it lets them eat, rather than to simply provide for everyone else. In a world where nobody will get a promotion, nobody earns extra pay or rations for working harder than the others, what is the incentive?

And don't give me that "no money" bullshit. Every communist nation throughout history has gotten a thriving black market running even if foreign cash and barter were the only means of transaction, a black market that was implicitly tolerated and even participated in by the government.

Once again, you're going entirely against human nature. We're a competitive species, and people always want to earn more than they already have. If placed in a society where you're never going to earn more through working hard, they will rebel. This is what's consistently happened with communist nations that tried to implement their practices in real life.
 
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In my first ever Economics course (in high school), I came to the conclusion that communism can't work on a large scale. There will always be people who want more than everyone else, and if they get into power in a communist society...
 
Communism and National-Socialism is what you get when you have a few dudes who want to make the world a better place, put them in a pub and have them get drunk. Suddenly they figure out how to fix everything. Such brilliant ideas they have! My father, dear ol' Satan Sr., used to be a businessman. He has been to many countries on business trips. Most of them have been in the German speaking world. One day he told me he visited Munich. He walked by a pub that was frequented by Lenin and his revolutionairy buds in the early 1900s when the man lived there. They spent their days boozing it up, getting pissed and coming up with the solution to all of life's problems. In the early 1920s, young Hitler did the same. He had his failed lil' Beer Putsch revolution there. A pathetically short-lived coup attempt deriving it's very name from the alcohol that inspired the man. He's known to have been a teetotaler but that was only later, when he traded in his fondness for that fine German beer for an addiction to narcotics, or so the locals told my father.

Anyway, long story short: communism, national-socialism and other forms of fascism is what you get when you throw a bunch of drunk idealists devoid of any sense of reality in one room and have them discuss politics. It's shit, but those who believe in it are too high on their own ego and perceived superiority of their system to realise just how shitty it is. And then when they defend it, the defense is always the same: "It's never been tried before", "all those previous communist\socialist\fascist states were doing it wrong". Yeah, thanks but no thanks. It's not a coincidence that all Nazi's I've ever known have been borderline alcoholics and all Communists stoners. One has to be a bit of a exceptional individual to still believe these systems are workable after witnessing the events of the 20th century, and not be drunk out of your mind.

Mind you, I'm not defending capitalism here and I do believe the system in which we live right now is deeply and heavily flawed. However I do not believe communism is the solution. If anything, it will make matters worse. It always has in the past and I see no reason why it will be any different in the future. If anyone wants to believe otherwise, do as you please. Be my guest. If ever in the decades to come someone has the retarded idea to once more put into place such a system, history will simply repeat itself and leave that nation in ruins and the rights of it's citizens trampled.
 
Carlson is banned, but nonetheless I feel compelled to respond.
But how do you provide all of that when only working 20 hours a week? Where on Earth is there a modern society that can survive on everyone working just a few hours a day?
Ever heard of automation and all that stuff? It was already estimated in first half of the 20th century that advanced nations would need only about 4 hours of work a day. Capitalism has already created technology to enable every single person to live without fear of poverty and homelessness with minimum work. However, capitalist social relations demand that this technology is used to enslave many for the profits of a few. That's why, despite micocomputer revolution and all that shit, today people work more than medieval serfs. Without constraints that capital has put on it, technology could be used to greatly reduce toil and transform the nature of the work itself.

In a world where nobody will get a promotion, nobody earns extra pay or rations for working harder than the others, what is the incentive?
Oh, if it was the case, the capitalist society would long ago collapse due to epidemy of laziness! Here people who work acquire nothing, and people who acquire everything don't work.

You ask me about incentives, but what if there were no disincentives? With technology being used to eliminate many boring and unpleasant tasks, and nature of the other changed. Many people of upper social standing who had enough leisure liked to work because for them it was not to earn a living but a creative process, a kind of hobby. Louis XVI, for example, loved ironworking. So the communist society would end with alienated labor- which isn't done to fullfil human needs or creativity but to meet the external agenda of the boss. In these circumstances, work could be seen more as a nice, mind- and body-excercising distraction from constant revelry.
Obviously I understand if you see this as too optimistic. Of course, there will be still sense of mutual obligation. Perhaps people will contribute what they are capable of because "that's just they way the things are". If that will not suffice for some antisocial individuals, well, no one forces them to do anything for the common good, but again the rest isn't forced to take care of them either. I don't think the community would be need to be so cruel as to deny them even basic things. They could have food and shelter but no gaming consoles without engaing in some productive work.
Then again, I don't like to talk about post-revolutionary society in too much detail. I find it counter-productive. That's one of reasons Marx criticized utopian socialists- he wasn't interested in readymade "foolproof" blueprints for "just" society, but in real movement that matures through its own experience and self-criticism. Once humanity is free, it's up to people to work out the best solutions to the problems they will face.

And don't give me that "no money" bullshit. Every communist nation throughout history has gotten a thriving black market running even if foreign cash and barter were the only means of transaction, a black market that was implicitly tolerated and even participated in by the government.
I have repeatedly told that they weren't communist and there can't be no such thing as "communist nation" since it can only exist on the world scale (and communism abolishes "nations"). In fact, you're just regurgiating propaganda of these states! Do you believe that they were also "democratic"? Because that's their second favorite word. Sorry, I'm just so old-fashioned that I don't buy into the idea that society with money, profits, wages, banks, commodity production (and all of them were present there, which makes your argument doubly nonsensical) etc. can be described as "communist". If we want to stick to true meaning of words and not to use some newspeak in which world is turned upside down, it's just common sense to declare that.

Once again, you're going entirely against human nature. We're a competitive species, and people always want to earn more than they already have.
Not this thing again.... Capitalism is human nature? Why not feudalism, or slavery? What makes it so special that it is above history? Some medieval nobleman would also refuse to believe that future world will not be ruled by principles of faith and code of honour, but by mundane cash payment. Ideas ruling in every epoch are ideas of the ruling class. And so the idea of what is "natural" for us!
Look at the every primitive tribe is enough to disprove outdated Hobbesian conception of "war of all against all" (which was itself an ideological expression of the rising capitalism). Scientists agree that cooperation was essential in evolution and survival of Homo sapiens.
If capitalism was human nature, why rulers had to convince people to just "follow" their nature even by force? Ordinary folk often revolted in defense of their traditional ways of living. For them "natural" was solidarity and reciprocity of gift- what E.P. Thompson termed "moral economy". There's plenty of literature about that, like Mauss's "The Gift" or Polanyi's "The Great Transformation". Though I'm not idealising the past or something, that would be reactionary. Capitalism was indeed progressive in contrast to previous modes of production, all I want is to show that humans can live and actually lived differently.

BTW, as for "people always want to earn more than they already have"- sorry, that's strawman, communism is not about equal division of poverty or something, but about "to each according to their needs, from each according to their ability".

This is what's consistently happened with communist nations that tried to implement their practices in real life.
That is, if you think that permanent war economy is the implementation of communism. Which means you didn't really bother dealing with my arguments.

As for your post, Satan, I doubt whether I should respond to that. Communists got their ideas because they drank too much alcohol? Really? What next, Marx was a pedo? Also, equating original content of communism with content of fascism.
 
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Politics. :roll:
Don't you love it when it devolves into what could either be a shouting match or one of those things where one side says the other is bad just because they don't agree with something?
 
Has anyone ever met a communist who was out of their teens and wasn't a frothing at the mouth neckbeard ?
 
Has anyone ever met a communist who was out of their teens and wasn't a frothing at the mouth neckbeard ?
How many of them did you meet? There are shitty people everywhere, but I don't think that communism is particularly attractive to neckbeards.

BTW why insults have been applauded in this thread, but when I tried to patiently answer questions, the discussion was a "shouting match"? If there's anyone shouting, it's not me.
 
How many of them did you meet? There are shitty people everywhere, but I don't think that communism is particularly attractive to neckbeards.

BTW why insults have been applauded in this thread, but when I tried to patiently answer questions, the discussion was a "shouting match"? If there's anyone shouting, it's not me.

126.
BTW maybe a forum about a spastic manchild isn't the best place to dump an unfunny long winded rant on politics , just saying.
 
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