Evolution/Creationism Thread - If Humans evolved from Monkeys, Why are there still Monkeys?

[Alex Hogendorp]

Since the dawn of time. People have been arguing what caused their existence in the first place. Many people say it's from a higher being. Others says it's done scientifically.

 

[gang weeder]

I don't know if I've ever heard anyone say that humans were created "scientifically." Unless you count the black hebrew israelite yakub tier shit I guess.

 

[Blasterisk]

Look, if you don't believe the universe spontaneously created itself (and then stopped for some reason) you're just unscientific, that's all.

 

[Red Hood]

My take is that God created a universe that has systems that are capable of self-replication and evolution. Sometimes it's great, sometimes it sucks. Like procedural generation in a game.

Though he sometimes designs things to spec.

 

[Lord of the Large Pants]

Well, the issue of why there's something rather than nothing (we have no fucking idea) is rather different from the question of biological origins, either in terms of the origin of life itself (poorly understood) or in terms of the of the origin of biological diversity (quite well understood).

 

[The Cunting Death]

At the end of the day I don't give a shit what you believe. If you believe it was the Big Bang, cool. If you believe it was by God, cool.

I just want to be left alone.

 

[BelUwUga]

My take is that God created a universe that has systems that are capable of self-replication and evolution. Sometimes it's great, sometimes it sucks. Like procedural generation in a game.

Though he sometimes designs things to spec.

I think a decent analog for what God's intent may be would be something like the makers of machines in this Machine Learning explanation:

If you think about the philosophical complications of "perfection" as we understand it, you'll probably want to approach it by devising how it could be tested. In theory a perfect being would be able to self-replicate or create at-will, so these aren't truly tests. Now if you are to start from scratch (pre-big bang) and end up with beings that either asymptotically approach perfection or eventually reach it, that's second-order creation that I would argue is a much stronger proof. I struggle to think of more concrete evidence of perfection and it seems to align with God's motives/actions as we understand them.

Something I believe in more strongly is that if their is a God we are hopeless to truly understand as we are. I'd liken it to explaining what your screen displays to an individual pixel. I have yet to hear an adequate explanation for why this would just randomly happen as it has. It seems rational to me that something with intent set things in motion, evolution included.

 

[gang weeder]

Something I believe in more strongly is that if their is a God we are hopeless to truly understand as we are. I'd liken it to explaining what your screen displays to an individual pixel. I have yet to hear an adequate explanation for why this would just randomly happen as it has. It seems rational to me that something with intent set things in motion, evolution included.

This is part of most Christian thinking, certainly it's an aspect of Orthodoxy at least. It is referred to as "Mysterium" (Greek word for mystery I think) meaning that God's full nature is unknowable to mortal minds and we won't be able to fully comprehend Him during our time here on Earth. This is something that a lot of atheists seem to struggle with, the fact that no matter how much heckin' science we do, we as human beings simply do not and will not have all the answers on questions this big (i.e. why does the universe exist).

 

[BelUwUga]

This is part of most Christian thinking, certainly it's an aspect of Orthodoxy at least. It is referred to as "Mysterium" (Greek word for mystery I think) meaning that God's full nature is unknowable to mortal minds and we won't be able to fully comprehend Him during our time here on Earth. This is something that a lot of atheists seem to struggle with, the fact that no matter how much heckin' science we do, we as human beings simply do not and will not have all the answers on questions this big (i.e. why does the universe exist).

I like throwing down the 10 dimensions when athiests get too euphoric for my tastes. Considering it leaves most scratching their head it works well. It's the kind of thing I like to watch when I'm smoking and orb pondering:

 

[Jewthulhu]

>inb4 this thread becomes a shitshow

 

[Isaac]

God created everything, including the coyote and the design of the coyote. Retroactively, this God has refuted Evolution by creating this very coyote! It's not possible
that random processes created such a beautiful animal. As for the supposed evidence in favor of evolution, they're false and not worth investigating. Dinosaurs are in reality,
actually dragons that we've been manipulated into thinking are related to birds.

 

[Idiotron]

Just because the "atheist movement" turned to shit doesn't mean I'm going to start believing in fairy tales.
Sorry, everyone, all your religions are false.
If we were created, it happened in a laboratory and was done by some alien scientists, a magic man didn't just imagine it into reality.

I don't know if I've ever heard anyone say that humans were created "scientifically." Unless you count the black hebrew israelite yakub tier shit I guess.

That would be me

Something I believe in more strongly is that if their is a God we are hopeless to truly understand as we are. I'd liken it to explaining what your screen displays to an individual pixel. I have yet to hear an adequate explanation for why this would just randomly happen as it has. It seems rational to me that something with intent set things in motion, evolution included.

This is what's referred to as "the puddle argument".
Basically, imagine a sentient puddle of rainwater.
The puddle is like: "This hole i'm in fits me perfectly, of course some higher being made this exact specific hole so that I can exist."
It never considers that the hole could not be there and things would't be that much different.
Just like an Earth that didn't have the right temperatures and chemical reactions happen would not have air or water and wouldn't be able to sustain life but it would still be here and nothing would change in the big picture.
We are mold stuck to a rock floating in space, that's all, we're not special just because we exist.
We are an outcome of things happening the way they did but if things happened differently, something else would be here and that thing would be amazed at how perfectly it fits some plan or whatever.

This is part of most Christian thinking, certainly it's an aspect of Orthodoxy at least. It is referred to as "Mysterium" (Greek word for mystery I think) meaning that God's full nature is unknowable to mortal minds and we won't be able to fully comprehend Him during our time here on Earth. This is something that a lot of atheists seem to struggle with, the fact that no matter how much heckin' science we do, we as human beings simply do not and will not have all the answers on questions this big (i.e. why does the universe exist).

That always seemed like a "get out of jail free" card in a debate about religion.
"You don't understand, you can't understand and you never will understand..... because I said so."
You don't know what we'll be able to understand in the future, nobody does.
Humans 1000 years ago never dreamed of what we're capable of today, it's a totally different reality.

That's what I got for now.

 

[BelUwUga]

We are mold stuck to a rock floating in space, that's all, we're not special just because we exist.

Okay and how does your argument not fall under equally specious reasoning? It's saying these things just randomly happened without considering how much more likely it would have been to not happen. I actually have reason and thought behind my beliefs instead of clinging to black/white thinking like some autist. Just because the answer is not clear does not support the fact that there is no answer at all.

 

[Alex Hogendorp]

Holy Shit. I just realized I opened Pandora's Box.

 

[Jewthulhu]

That always seemed like a "get out of jail free" card in a debate about religion.
"You don't understand, you can't understand and you never will understand..... because I said so."
You don't know what we'll be able to understand in the future, nobody does.
Humans 1000 years ago never dreamed of what we're capable of today, it's a totally different reality.

Except we fundamentally can't completely understand the universe; let alone a God (or gods). There are hard limitations to what technology is capable of. Hell, there are hard limits to what rationalism is capable of. And when you're talking about subjects that is literally unverifiable scientifically (existence of a God, what happened in the past, philosophy), all bets of a high-confidence conclusion are off.

That's why these arguments are pointless at best. 99% of the time, any "deism vs atheism" debate boils down to cute analogies, name-calling, and "gotcha" moments, because there really is no way to actually argue either side. My advice to everyone involved is to stop being so smug about your view of the universe and walk away. You DON'T have the end-all argument for this.

 

[SouthernBitchBob]

The core premises of the Theory of Evolution are as close to common sense as you could probably get. "Your kids take after you" and "if you have more kids than your neighbor you leave this earth with more people who look like you than he did". Extrapolate conclusions from there. Population trends for all life change over time based on who had more kids. No shit.

If you choose to believe this process happens randomly or is guided by magic, that's on you. But you're a nut blinded by your religious teaching if you think it doesn't happen, because you see its effects all the time.

 

[Isaac]

Just because the "atheist movement" turned to shit doesn't mean I'm going to start believing in fairy tales.
Sorry, everyone, all your religions are false.
If we were created, it happened in a laboratory and was done by some alien scientists, a magic man didn't just imagine it into reality.

That would be me

You' are far too prideful, and you're unable and unwilling to reconsider any of your beliefs due to your vainness. I pray that this is bait for those without humility cannot be exposed to the grace of our Lord. Just like a blind man is unable to see a tree.

 

[Blasterisk]

The core premises of the Theory of Evolution are as close to common sense as you could probably get. "Your kids take after you" and "if you have more kids than your neighbor you leave this earth with more people who look like you than he did". Extrapolate conclusions from there. Population trends for all life change over time based on who had more kids. No shit.

If you choose to believe this process happens randomly or is guided by magic, that's on you. But you're a nut blinded by your religious teaching if you think it doesn't happen, because you see its effects all the time.

That with a starting point stuck between "impossible" and "if it happened disproves the methods by which we measure it" does not impress me, no matter how many scientists agree.

By what method can matter form itself? And how could you have observations with meaning if matter could create itself at will? No, whatever the answer is the Big Bang is right out -- except perhaps as the explanation of creationism that it started as, amusingly.

 

[gang weeder]

Just because the "atheist movement" turned to shit doesn't mean I'm going to start believing in fairy tales.
Sorry, everyone, all your religions are false.
If we were created, it happened in a laboratory and was done by some alien scientists, a magic man didn't just imagine it into reality.

That would be me

This is what's referred to as "the puddle argument".
Basically, imagine a sentient puddle of rainwater.
The puddle is like: "This hole i'm in fits me perfectly, of course some higher being made this exact specific hole so that I can exist."
It never considers that the hole could not be there and things would't be that much different.
Just like an Earth that didn't have the right temperatures and chemical reactions happen would not have air or water and wouldn't be able to sustain life but it would still be here and nothing would change in the big picture.
We are mold stuck to a rock floating in space, that's all, we're not special just because we exist.
We are an outcome of things happening the way they did but if things happened differently, something else would be here and that thing would be amazed at how perfectly it fits some plan or whatever.

That always seemed like a "get out of jail free" card in a debate about religion.
"You don't understand, you can't understand and you never will understand..... because I said so."
You don't know what we'll be able to understand in the future, nobody does.
Humans 1000 years ago never dreamed of what we're capable of today, it's a totally different reality.

That's what I got for now.

If it turns out that humans were somehow bio-engineered by le aliens, that would not really answer the fundamental questions here. Where did the aliens come from? Did other aliens bio-engineer them into existence too? You have the same problem of an infinite regress without any clear answer on how it all started.

That always seemed like a "get out of jail free" card in a debate about religion.
"You don't understand, you can't understand and you never will understand..... because I said so."
You don't know what we'll be able to understand in the future, nobody does.
Humans 1000 years ago never dreamed of what we're capable of today, it's a totally different reality.

It's basic epistemic humility, something which you refuse in your self-assured claim that we are "just mold clinging to a rock in space." We have no idea how true that is or isn't so long as fundamental questions of creation like these remain unanswered. Maybe those questions will somehow be answered in the future, but probably not within our lifetimes, and certainly not anytime soon. Yet you somehow already know with certainty that there is no higher purpose, morals don't exist, everything is all the same (bc we're just electrical impulses firing through meat so who cares), etc. Exactly what I mean when I say that atheists typically refuse to admit that we can't know everything.

Holy Shit. I just realized I opened Pandora's Box.

From what I've seen people get more triggered over gay/tranny shit. The true heyday of these atheism debates was like 10 years ago.

 

[Osmosis Jones]

If everything was created by God, then who or what created God? Are we to believe that God had always been? If so, where has God always been? Something can't be nowhere. So if God has assuredly been somewhere this entire time, who made the somewhere and put God there? God couldn't have made the somewhere from nowhere and put himself there. If it is insisted that God is not any one place but everywhere at once, we are to understand that the universe itself is God, but then we are left with the same questions. If we are made in God's image, who determined God's image? If God created humanity and everything, then why? To have a plaything? To teach something he created a lesson?

Faith is great and all but let's not pretend it does any better at giving fulfilling answers than science does when you really get into the meat of it. Science obviously can't prove something that may have happened 14 billion years ago but only give very educated guesses.

Anyways, two things are abundantly clear: evolution is how we got here, not creation and we've lost many thousands of years of human history to time. There are many gaps in the history of the ancestors of homo sapiens that would do well to explain how we ended up this way.