Forging/Knife making - Getting stabby at home

  • 🐕 I am attempting to get the site runnning as fast as possible. If you are experiencing slow page load times, please report it.

Frostnipped Todger

Je m'en fous
kiwifarms.net
Joined
Jul 22, 2019
I've recently gotten interested in the idea of making knives at home, probably starting out with stock removal, and then getting into forging if I have some success.
Does anyone have any experience with this who could offer up some advice before I get started?
I've done a bunch of "research" on YouTube, but it's always better to get first hand information.
 
I would recommend Investing in a quality propane forge with an easy to read temperature gauge and a timer for the annealing process of the knife build. Annealing to your desired strength is the 2nd most important part of knife construction, behind using high quality steel. Do not cheap out on the steel you use for your knife.
Annealing in general is where most knife makers mess up and is the difference between a knife that will hold it's edge for a very long time and a knife that will dull quickly.

If you haven't already you should also read up on how different carbon levels in steel effects the knife and what temperatures you need to anneal the steel at for your application. High carbon makes the knife harder and more resilient to wear but also more brittle and prone to snapping. As an example Chef's knives are usually high carbon and hardened to stay sharp for long periods where they are generally not bent or stressed to the side. Survival knives on the other hand are usually lower carbon to enable them to bend and not snap when doing things like carving or splitting wood.
 
I'm learning how to smith as we speak. That's why I posted in this thread
Make sure to post cool stuff you learn and photos of what you make. I have a kind of related video that was pretty cool, especially as a prop concept. Especially since you seemingly like Warhammer.
And then he worked on a sword version.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kyff
Make sure to post cool stuff you learn and photos of what you make.
It's gonna be a while before I start making blades; I'm still on the spoons and coathooks stage. I've yet to get good at tempering as well.


This dead nigger channel is pretty helpful. He touches on theory a lot, which most hobby blacksmiths don't tend to.
 
It's gonna be a while before I start making blades; I'm still on the spoons and coathooks stage. I've yet to get good at tempering as well.


This dead nigger channel is pretty helpful. He touches on theory a lot, which most hobby blacksmiths don't tend to.
Well if you do end up trying to make a flaming sword with the kind of porous metal that was used in those videos, I have an idea for doing it. It's actually a lot simpler than forging a blade itself via traditional blacksmithing but it kind of limits what you can use to make it. Namely the idea is to use a material that can withstand the temperatures necessary to melt bronze, sinter a sand-like consistency of that material together and then via some chemical means get rid of that sintered material whilst not getting rid of the bronze.

For the more hollow parts necessary for gas flow you'd just have solid chunks of the sintering material in the sintered mix. One issue would be that this kind of porous bronze sword would have issues with bubbles, but this issue is removed if the bronze is melted into the mold with the sintered material and then vibrated to get air bubbles out. Alternatively it can be melted and then a vacuum can be pulled to also pull out any air pockets/bubbles.

The material could be some kind of metal that'll react with water. Erbium, a rare earth metal, has a melting point(1530c~) much higher than Bronze(950c~) and it will react with air and water in a non-violent way(like akali metals would). For the blade edge, bronze hardens when you warp it(as far as I know at least. So like a flat strip of bronze will harden at the points you make it bend), so hammering the edge to stretch it out should make the edge harder whilst also giving it that cutting bit.
 
I forged out this sujihiki a few months ago from a wrench. It was originally supposed to be a tanto but It ended up being waayy to thin so I just flattened out the bevels while keeping the taper intact.

Honestly I recommend getting some scrap steel and practicing making distal tapers. Especially if you plan on making something larger than a kitchen knife
Annealing in general is where most knife makers mess up and is the difference between a knife that will hold it's edge for a very long time and a knife that will dull quickly.
Annealing is when you heat a knife up to critical temperature and leave it to cool slowly. This changes the steel structure by reducing the carbon content and thus makes the steel weaker and more malleable. Did you mean to say quenching instead?
 
Annealing is when you heat a knife up to critical temperature and leave it to cool slowly. This changes the steel structure by reducing the carbon content and thus makes the steel weaker and more malleable. Did you mean to say quenching instead?
I thought annealing included the entire heat treatment process? I must have been mistaken. Still, heat treatment and quality of material is what makes or breaks a knife.
 
I thought annealing included the entire heat treatment process?
From my understanding, annealing is the process of softening hardened steel by heating it to the critical temperature, and then letting it cool slowly.
I think the term you were looking for was tempering, where a hardened blade is heated to a lower temperature (usually about 400f) for a long period (2 hours or more), which slightly softens the steel, so it won't shatter under pressure.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: KosherFarms.net
If you ever get to the point that you start wanting to make real Wootz blades (real Damascus steel, not pattern welded) let me know, I have a ton of research materials on the process.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Frostnipped Todger
Namely the idea is to use a material that can withstand the temperatures necessary to melt bronze, sinter a sand-like consistency of that material together and then via some chemical means get rid of that sintered material whilst not getting rid of the bronze.
The material could be some kind of metal that'll react with water. Erbium, a rare earth metal, has a melting point(1530c~) much higher than Bronze(950c~) and it will react with air and water in a non-violent way(like akali metals would). For the blade edge, bronze hardens when you warp it(as far as I know at least. So like a flat strip of bronze will harden at the points you make it bend), so hammering the edge to stretch it out should make the edge harder whilst also giving it that cutting bit.
Let me cast my first pot before I try this; it looks like a pain in the ass to anneal
 
  • Like
Reactions: Yugica
Let me cast my first pot before I try this; it looks like a pain in the ass to anneal
The Erbium extraction might also be a pain. Its hydroxide isn't that soluble in water, but is soluble in acids. The problem is that the acids typically used will also degrade the bronze. Bronze is pretty corrosion resistant but it'd be preferable to not bathe it in acid before trying to use it as a sword. Hopefully I'll have a better option if you do decide to try and make a flaming sword.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Skitarii
The Erbium extraction might also be a pain. Its hydroxide isn't that soluble in water, but is soluble in acids. The problem is that the acids typically used will also degrade the bronze. Bronze is pretty corrosion resistant but it'd be preferable to not bathe it in acid before trying to use it as a sword. Hopefully I'll have a better option if you do decide to try and make a flaming sword.
It sounds like a fun chemistry experiment. I might try it out just to brush up on my stoichiometry
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Yugica
It sounds like a fun chemistry experiment. I might try it out just to brush up on my stoichiometry
I'd love to hear any progress you make. I need to learn more rare earths chemistry too. On the topic of swords and such though, I have had one very odd idea. Namely in producing composite metals from things like metal pieces in an inert atmosphere or even a vacuum. Basically you'd work in a workshop with something like a space suit on and rely on cold welding to get the various pieces to weld together in complex patterns that can make the blade better able to distribute forces or even possibly redirect a good deal of force back.

One of the neat applications of this would be with how the discrepancy in the speed of sound between metals and the patterns that you weld together can cause a shockwave in the metal(sword, armor, knife) to disperse rapidly to avoid damage to the overall structure. You could even be more creative for dealing with extreme forces and employ sacrificial parts that will deform and break under immense stress. Whilst this sounds bad the very process of the deformation steals energy from the blow itself.

There's also inspirations that one can take from nature, like with the mantis shrimp who can hit things with their claws on par for power with a .22 bullet. They employ a repeating microstructure of tubules that rotate each layer, helping to rapidly dissipate the forces present. Here's a diagram from a study that talks about that and other forms of microstructures and biomimicry.
structure.webp
 
I thought annealing included the entire heat treatment process? I must have been mistaken. Still, heat treatment and quality of material is what makes or breaks a knife.
different-types-of-annealing.webp

Annealing includes recrystalization and grain-growth. You're causing the metal to soften by breaking down larger deformed grains through heat + pressure. It still needs to be normalized, hardened, and tempered for the full heat treatment.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Yugica
@Frostnipped Todger
Ive been forging for years for sale.
I have a coal forge(for damascus) and gas forge(for everything else).
I have a 60kg anvil with a 30kg sand basin stand block that i paid and was asshurt about the price afterwards until i used it.

For starters il lay some things out.

Anvil:
You dont "need" a face hardened professional anvil, but it makes a big, BIG difference.
You can work with a cheap 30kg chinesium anvil but you need to round all the edges.
Railroad track works great for knifes, because its face hardened. The issue with using railroad track is that an anvil sized piece doesnt weigh enough so it gives you "bounce back" on the workpiece, buuut you can help with that by having a heavy base block and you HAVE TO secure the track piece to the block really tightly.

Hammer:
Just get a 4 or 5 pound hammer. BUT you need to round the edges on most hammers to forge. Why? Because if your strike face isnt perfect youl hit with the edge and leave a sharp "dent" into the material instead of shaping it.

Blade material:
I personally use 80crv2 for everything and 15n20 when i make damascus.
I started with car leaf springs, its pretty good for making knives out of.
If youre gonna make a knife by "barstock removal" you first need to forge the spring straight, then back into the forge for few minutes untill its "quench hot" and then let it aircool to normalize it.
Otherwise youre just working with a hard material, and since that spring has been working for years in a car there is internal stress in the piece, so if you dont normalize the piece, it will warp when you quench it.
Most "blade steel" sold like 1095, 80crv2 etc etc in some point in its lifespan has been rolled into a steel roll for transportation, then before its cut into smaller pieces its often "cold rolled" to be straight again. Itl come out all warped as fuck sometimes when you quench it, so you should normalize that steel too before quench.
Old metal files are great, theyre usually in the upper end in carbon content so they will harden really well but theyre also more brittle.
And DO NOT FUCKING LEAVE THE FILE TEETH IN THE KNIFE! Youre just creating hundreds of sharp stresspoints where the blade will snap way, way easier than a straight surface.
What you need to do before forging is to normalize the file, then grind away the teeth, THEN forge, you cant really forge the teeth away.
You probably shouldnt use modern files because theyre often very high alloyed metals and that comes with, more extensive heat treatment.(soak times, you need to be really accurate with temperatures, and you need to cycle the tempering.
Well you can do it like "normal" but you wont get the properties of that mixture, and your piece might be left brittle.
One downside of using files is getting a file that someone had thrown once, so when you go to quench it you see a large but very thin crack somewhere in the blade.

As a material id recommend basic bitch 1085.
Why?
Because its really forgiving with quench temperature + its cheaper than other knife steels.
And since youre always using the same steel, you always get predictable results.
Once youre confident in your heat treatment process, id start using 80crv2.
Its almost double the cost however.
Its a low alloy steel but that alloying makes the stuff really, really tough while still being hard.

If youre shopping for the "high end super steels" as a starter, dont.
Stuff like Elmax or Apex Ultra gives you really, really hard blades that dont lose sharpness easily, but theyre brittle as shit so if you intend to "baton" something like a log with your knife, NOPE its just gonna shatter.
Just one look at the high end metals datasheet for heat treatment process shows you how accurate you need to be with thermal cycles, soak times, tempering and temper quenches.
Same goes for most stainless steels, the quench temperature is often like +/- 10 celcius, if you go above that, too brittle, below, too soft.
They arent forgiving.

Forge:
Gas, yeah get a gas forge...
Any person seething about "BUT YOU GONNA BURN THE CARBON OFF!" is a retard who has been using a shitty gas forge thats over aired and doesnt have air flow adjustment.
Youre less likely to overheat your steel with a gas forge.
A coal forge when using coke will very easily melt your steel by accident.

1746977700888.webp

Oh and, always round your sharp corners, if you dont the blade will snap easily.

This is something i read some time ago about stress points.


Ive been making knives for years, only recently ive moved to high end pieces.
Usually making the blade is the least time consuming part for me, if a blade takes me few hours to forge, heat treat, grind and polish, the handle and sheathe take me 20-30 hours.
for refrence:
1746977939691.webp
Not mine, but my last piece was one like this.(mine is stamped with my initials, aint gonna selfdox).


TL;DR gas forge, 4 pound hammer, railroad track or chinesium anvil, gas forge, 1085 or car leafsprings/metal files.

The easiest way to learn is to learn from someone, atleast where i live forging classes are held all over the place, usually 20-30 hours total for a whopping 75 bucks.(theres usually 5-10 people at once)
 
Cheers @Adolf Hulkler

I ordered some 1084 last night. I am probably going to get some railroad track as a temporary anvil, but I'll try making a few knives (I ordered a 1 1/2" x 36" bar) first, before I invest any more.

My dad was a metal worker and I recently got all of his tools handed down to me, so I have a selection of excellent hammers which are suitable. I also have some old, very large files, but I wasn't sure about re-purposing them, simply because modern files are inferior.

I will probably pester you in future for more info.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Meiwaku
Cheers @Adolf Hulkler

I ordered some 1084 last night. I am probably going to get some railroad track as a temporary anvil, but I'll try making a few knives (I ordered a 1 1/2" x 36" bar) first, before I invest any more.

My dad was a metal worker and I recently got all of his tools handed down to me, so I have a selection of excellent hammers which are suitable. I also have some old, very large files, but I wasn't sure about re-purposing them, simply because modern files are inferior.

I will probably pester you in future for more info.
Yeah i meant 1084/1085.

I forgot to mention a few things so il add them here.
When quenching, do NOT heat the blade with a very large hot heat source from the sides and then immediately shove it into the quench.
There might be a 100-50 degree (c) difference on the sides of the blade if its thicker than 3mm.(this will cause it to warp)
Gentle slow heat to quench temperature is safe.
(with skill you can only harden the edge with an acetylene torch, preferable method for very high carbon steel like old metal files).

You can(or like, pay extra for actual quenching oil) use cheapest cooking oil you can get.
Engine oil works too but i generally dislike it because after few quenches it becomes burnt, smells bad and stains everything in your workshop with disgusting burnt smelling oil.

Preheat the oil to 50-60c.
No need to be accurate with oil temperature with simple steels.
Rule of thumb, if its so hot you get a first degree burn, its too hot.
Good temperature is where you can shove your finger in and its "discomfortingly" warm.
This makes the oil quench your steel "faster" as the gas bubbles that form on the surface of the steel move away way faster because the oils viscosity is lower.
When quenching, depending on the shape and size of the container of your oil, move the blade "up and down" as if you were churning butter(jacking off motion) OR move it forwards and backwards slowly, as if youre "slashing" the oil.
Dont move it side to side, it can cause warping.
If you get a warped blade, dont do the thing on the internet where they shove it into a bench vice to straighten it.
The window of time to do this is extremely short and it also introduces bunch of stuff into the crystaline structure that makes the blade weaker.
Heat, straighten, normalize, if you have a bucket of DRY ash, its the best way, i do that when i make something out of car springs, but it takes hour or two for the blade to cool down to room temperature that way.
Water quench WILL shatter your blade easily, it quenches your steel so fast that it will rip itself apart in multiple places, ive had this happen to me when i was starting, and the blade makes a loud BANG in the water when it shatters from thermal stress.
Water quench has its uses, but oil is so, so much safer.

I usually quench multiple blades in a row, but i have a qunch oil container that has cooling fins so it cools down pretty fast.
When ive quenched something large like a thick Leuku, machete or chopper, i FIRST quench in oil, then i cool it cold in water by teetering the edge in a bath of water.

1084 tempering(so its not too hard and fragile) is the easiest thing to do, you can use an oven, a hotplate, blow torch, hot air blower or just a campfire to do it.
Polish the tang and edge of the knife, then look at a chart like this.
1747065007110.webp

If your blade goes blue, it wont hold and edge that well.
Material thickness has an effect on if you should go 240c, or 200c on the temper.
If you temper 1084 80crv2 below 200c, you SHOULD polish the steel not not leave a single stress point on the blade, every scratch on very hard blades is a weak point.

I oven temper to 200-230c, then with a blowtorch i temper the tang to 280-300c but i have the entire blade and maybe, 10mm(or half inch) under water so the heat there cant get hot( so the tang is springy.
1084 doesnt really need any long temper times, i use 80crv2 so i usually give it 1-2 hours.

Last one.
Dont sharpen the blades even closely to a sharp edge before quench, if you do that and you sharpen the blade, itl wear out really quick and you need to regrind the bewel so youre removing the "carbon depleted" part of the edge(this sometimes happen, i had it happen few times when i started, sharpened blade before quench, then again after tempering, started to carve bone and the edge bent slightly).

Knife making is the one autism i have, so ask away if you need anything.
I dont make swords tho.

One fun new quench technique ive started doing is the clay quench.
Its the thing japs did for their swords where they cover everything except the edge of the blade in insulating clay, i mixed my own from completely depleted hardwood ash(burn hardwood, collect ash, put into steel container, throw it into a fire for few hours) and high temp masonry cement.
Ive had.... mixed results....

EDIT: i started this hobby when i was 14 and had 50 euros in my pocket, bought a "field forge" from an old man in a tailgate flea market.
I stopped counting how much my tooling and material inventory cost after maybe spending 5k.
 
Last edited:
Back