General GunTuber thread

[Full Spectrum]

I still don't fully understand why they didn't just go with an AR10 in a fancy round but I'm also not an engineer or a procurement officer.

It's still going to cost the Army the same money. They have to get the rights for the IP from the company, so it's up to the company to decide what to do to meet the contract requirements. AR18 styled guns can be made shorter OAL like what SIG did and the other two submissions were bullpups for the OAL requirements. A basic AR10 wouldn't work for that purpose, and even if you could engineer it, it's probably the same amount of work compared to starting from scratch. The engineers at SIG and the others are likely just as competent or closely competent as each other and none of them went for a more basic AR-10 because it doesn't work as well for a suppressed, short gun and all three had every incentive to cut cost corners if it were feasible.

Being a sarcastic unfunny faggot doesn't make you any less of a faggot. Go outside.

It's amusing to me that someone thinks it's worthwhile to point out how gay discord autism drama isn't funny or interesting and so it shouldn't be posted here. Yet at the same time this same person has now made 3 posts that I would have to guess somehow are funny, interesting, and not also autistic or some combo thereof in commenting on such matters since obviously that's the standard of posting we use around here, right? What's next going to call me a nerd on the internet? We've already used faggot (twice), autistic, and referenced being inside a building. Please keep the next one interesting and don't repeat yourself - wouldn't want to violate your own rules for posting requirements!

 

[Sleazy Car Salesman]

It's amusing to me that someone thinks it's worthwhile to point out how gay discord autism drama isn't funny or interesting and so it shouldn't be posted here. Yet at the same time this same person has now made 3 posts that I would have to guess somehow are funny, interesting, and not also autistic or some combo thereof in commenting on such matters since obviously that's the standard of posting we use around here, right? What's next going to call me a nerd on the internet? We've already used faggot (twice), autistic, and referenced being inside a building. Please keep the next one interesting and don't repeat yourself - wouldn't want to violate your own rules for posting requirements!

There's a reason they ban you for this kind of shit on some forums, it's bullshit to read through. Just call him a faggot or a nigger and move on.

 

[BaldAndMorallyBankrupt]

you seem upset

Very. This might be an outdated mentality but to me these 9-5 soldiers that sit in a base all day are barely any better than internet armchair operators.

Spot on. That's what the people even on the farms who say "lol the government will just drone strike you regardless of your guns". Drone operators have names, addresses, and a route to work.

And you have access to none of that , not to mention if push comes to shove they can always move people to out of country bases along with the ones they already have there.

It's one thing to ask Private Cletus to go brass up Mahmoud Afghan, it's another thing entirely to try and send him against his own countrymen

You say that like people haven't been harassing, beating and shooting each other for voting for the wrong geriatric for the past 5 years. Not to mention that's never been a problem before in any civil war in history. So why would it be now?

The troubles is also an unfair comparison as you're discussing a conflict driven by nationalist groups that had been active for decades before that, and consistently were able to procure actual military hardware, GPMGs, Mortars, HMGs, LMG, Artillery pieces, MANPADs, Select Fire Rifles, heaps of explosives etc etc. You simply don't have that in the US. These 5 dollar militias that pretend to guard the mexico border are barely detached from LARPers.

 

[Champion The Wonder Horse]

Very. This might be an outdated mentality but to me these 9-5 soldiers that sit in a base all day are barely any better than internet armchair operators.

And you have access to none of that , not to mention if push comes to shove they can always move people to out of country bases along with the ones they already have there.

You say that like people haven't been harassing, beating and shooting each other for voting for the wrong geriatric for the past 5 years. Not to mention that's never been a problem before in any civil war in history. So why would it be now?

The troubles is also an unfair comparison as you're discussing a conflict driven by nationalist groups that had been active for decades before that, and consistently were able to procure actual military hardware, GPMGs, Mortars, HMGs, LMG, Artillery pieces, MANPADs, Select Fire Rifles, heaps of explosives etc etc. You simply don't have that in the US. These 5 dollar militias that pretend to guard the mexico border are barely detached from LARPers.

Where do you think the 'RA got their hardware from? Early days by raiding British armouries, then later from sympathisers in the US (including theft from NG armouries) and of course shipments from Colonel Gadaffi because it was an excellent way to fuck with the west.

Fortunately the global arms market hasn't just been flooded with massive quantities of US issue kit from Afghan, and fucking about in other people's local wars by shipping in massive quantities of ordnance including MANPADS, man portable AT kit, artillery etc. hasn't been completely normalised by the Ukrainian fuckery. Certainly the Russins would have no motivation to slip a few conexs of toys over the southern border.

 

[WhoBusTank69]

Not even on the 10th time bitching about it does it stop being funny.

InRange TV (@InRangeTV)

I don’t know how many times I need to post this, but everything you see on InRange is my work and Ian has not been an active part of this channel for over three years. ~Karl

nitter.net

 

[Trig.Point]

Very. This might be an outdated mentality but to me these 9-5 soldiers that sit in a base all day are barely any better than internet armchair operators.

To use an expression 'everybody chooses their trade'. Back in the early 2000's the British Army started civllianising certain roles within units that were essentially 9-5. Instead of soldiers that were paid decently, they hired the cheapest civvies they could find, which were usually retired soldiers and eastern european immigrants.

They ran down the employment of Chefs, Clerks, Metalsmiths (this was a real killer for Afghan and Iraq), certain types of store men (don't worry you'll get all your kit that we should be issuing you now, when you arrive in theatre).

It got to the point where Regiments were completely reliant on higher level assets as soon as they left camp. Eg. if a unit wanted to send a platoon to a patrol base, they wouldn't have a chef they could send with them, so they'd have to rely on rat packs.

tl;dr if 9 to 5 soldiers deploy then they're still soldiers and the only lesson you should ever learn from the British Army is how not to do things.

Where do you think the 'RA got their hardware from? Early days by raiding British armouries, then later from sympathisers in the US (including theft from NG armouries) and of course shipments from Colonel Gadaffi because it was an excellent way to fuck with the west.

Fortunately the global arms market hasn't just been flooded with massive quantities of US issue kit from Afghan, and fucking about in other people's local wars by shipping in massive quantities of ordnance including MANPADS, man portable AT kit, artillery etc. hasn't been completely normalised by the Ukrainian fuckery. Certainly the Russins would have no motivation to slip a few conexs of toys over the southern border.

The IRA never raided any British Armouries. Some rifles were stolen, usually by local UDR and handed over to the loyalists.

I wonder what's to stop the Russians gathering up all that captured Ukrainian equipment and shipping it back across the border into Europe. Hey Ulster Loyalists how would you like a few ISO containers of Steyer AUG's. We'll even throw in a few captured AT-4's all with made in the EU stamped on them.

Or just go and find every disgruntled political group they can find and throw captured western weapons systems at them.

The US were smart with the Stinger and the seeker needs a bespoke battery that's impossible to bodge (unless the russians manufacture something for it). All the Danish Stingers that they were going to send to Ukraine were found to be unservicable, because the batteries were dead.

They didn't do the same thing with the Javelin though.... and Ukraine is flooded with them.

 

[BaldAndMorallyBankrupt]

Where do you think the 'RA got their hardware from? Early days by raiding British armouries, then later from sympathisers in the US (including theft from NG armouries) and of course shipments from Colonel Gadaffi because it was an excellent way to fuck with the west.

Fortunately the global arms market hasn't just been flooded with massive quantities of US issue kit from Afghan, and fucking about in other people's local wars by shipping in massive quantities of ordnance including MANPADS, man portable AT kit, artillery etc. hasn't been completely normalised by the Ukrainian fuckery. Certainly the Russins would have no motivation to slip a few conexs of toys over the southern border.

Not at all. There weren't significant armories in the region and in general having massive stock piles dotted about isn't a practice that's common in the west as it was in eastern European nations. People can ship as many weapons as they want to a place, it getting there is a separate matter. In this case the IRA had a benefit of a considerable rough coast line and a generally sympathetic catholic Irish neighbor. You have the same thing with Ukraine, not so much the coastline but the sympathetic neighbors. Not to mention centralized organization. Most of the militias in the US are not only stand-off-ish but some of them actively beef with each other.

Would you care to inform me how the land locked midwest is gonna get weapons while it's surrounded by politically opposed neighboring states? Do you really think the cartels would give enough of a shit to smuggle weapons into Texas or where-ever the fuck? Forget about Canada. Even then what exactly would they be getting? China-crap? Russia-crap? Old ass m16a2s from the 70s that probably haven't even been maintained since the US left? Give me a break.

Don't get me wrong, i would never want it to come down to that. However these bogaloo fantasies that retards like GT, Lucas Botkins and even Brendan Herrera to some extent promote do more harm than good, not to mention how pathetic they tend to be.

 

[HumptiDouji]

Back on point, Ian has waxed poetic and gave his take on the M5/Spear:

I don't buy his excuse that the low pressure training ammo means you don't have to worry about barrel life. These things recoil a shitload with the 80k PSI ammo and you can't train to handle that without a lot of practice with it, it's like saving on money by using a 10/22 to train for shooting an AK, it isn't going to give you habit in handling the recoil characteristics.
Inevitably, they WILL have to train with the high pressure ammo a lot, which is hard to shoot, and high wearing.

It's like he's been fed some talking points by a Sig marketer and just uncritically regurgitates them.

 

[quaawaa]

I don't buy his excuse that the low pressure training ammo means you don't have to worry about barrel life. These things recoil a shitload with the 80k PSI ammo and you can't train to handle that without a lot of practice with it, it's like saving on money by using a 10/22 to train for shooting an AK, it isn't going to give you habit in handling the recoil characteristics.
Inevitably, they WILL have to train with the high pressure ammo a lot, which is hard to shoot, and high wearing.

It's like he's been fed some talking points by a Sig marketer and just uncritically regurgitates them.

It is possible to make a weaker round that is ballistically equivalent to a stronger round, and they could have done that here. If so, you can use the training round for marksmanship practice as recoil doesn’t matter as much if you’re carefully lining up each shot. Articles taking about the NGSW ammunition types refer to the training ammo as “reduced range”:

6.8x51mm - The Common Cartridge Family of Ammunition to be used by both the XM5 and XM250. The first types will be general-purpose, blank, drill/dummy inert, a reduced range training cartridge to allow the Army's current ranges to be used, and high-pressure test rounds.

“Reduced range” probably refers to something like this; a training round that follows the same ballistic trajectory the same as the real round until a certain point where it falls off in order to prevent accidentally hitting someone’s house a mile downrange.

 

[UVB-76]

And you have access to none of that , not to mention if push comes to shove they can always move people to out of country bases along with the ones they already have there.

That's just impossible. You can't stop people from posting on social media or talking about what their boyfriend/brother does in the Air Force at a bar. Moving military families out of the country, I mean at least someone in their close family must have a job right? Are these jobs going to be moved to Ramstein or Camp Bondsteel or is the US just going to take the economic hit?

I don't buy his excuse that the low pressure training ammo means you don't have to worry about barrel life.

I can't find the confirmation anywhere, but there's people saying the barrel material is going to be 32CrMoV12-10 (the stuff Rheinmetall uses on 30mm cannons) and diamon-like carbon coat rather than hard chrome. I think they're not advertising whatever barrel technology they're using because it's going to be like M855A1, they won't sell the high pressure ammo and the case design is going to be protected by patent so nobody's gonna clone it.

 

[Cold Root Beer]

I don't buy his excuse that the low pressure training ammo means you don't have to worry about barrel life. These things recoil a shitload with the 80k PSI ammo and you can't train to handle that without a lot of practice with it, it's like saving on money by using a 10/22 to train for shooting an AK, it isn't going to give you habit in handling the recoil characteristics.
Inevitably, they WILL have to train with the high pressure ammo a lot, which is hard to shoot, and high wearing.

It's like he's been fed some talking points by a Sig marketer and just uncritically regurgitates them.

Whether the M5 goes the way of the M14 is really dependent less on the rifle itself, and more on the wunderwaffe Vortex scope that is a lot more clouded in mystery still. I think the whole "increase armor penetration" stuff is mostly meme/smoke on the part of the Army, but the real purpose of the switch is to extend the range of the weapon system to match the capabilities inferred by the new optic and change doctrine to match (at least, they are in theory). If this scope really does live up to the hype, it could be like slapping the Longbow on the Apache, in that they're creating a niche no other military currently has the capacity for. Where the average infantryman can reach out and touch opfor grunts way beyond their range, akin to the Egyptians popping Isreali tanks en masse with ATGMs in 1973. Basically, the rifle not being controllable in full auto is of secondary importance because of the accuracy boost from the new optics combined with the extended range means that doctrinally you shouldn't really ever be firing the thing full auto. If you need withering fire, that's what the M250 is for.

This is all just random theory I've been thinking, who fuckin knows how it's going to work in reality. Scope might not work worth a shit, and it'll end up as a modern day M14 until the Army quietly switches back to M4s, and some Army higher-ups retire and mysteriously get cushy jobs at Sig-Sauer (probably going to happen regardless).

The relative lack of info on the scope (vs the extreme openness about the rifle) makes me think it's either complete shit and they're covering it up, or it's actually the lynchpin and they've decided to not excessively document its full capabilities to maintain some level of opsec on it. Who knows.

 

[quaawaa]

The relative lack of info on the scope (vs the extreme openness about the rifle) makes me think it's either complete shit and they're covering it up, or it's actually the lynchpin and they've decided to not excessively document its full capabilities to maintain some level of opsec on it. Who knows.

Vortex plans to sell the scope on the civilian market, so that can’t be it.

 

[Corn Flakes]

It's like he's been fed some talking points by a Sig marketer and just uncritically regurgitates them.

Yeah, that's pretty much what he does. Although I'm sure he also read those talking points in the army announcement/documentation for the new rifle.

And it's not like he can be very critical about it, the whole thing is so new no one really knows all the facts about it. And at least he couched a lot of those statements in "supposed to". That's unlike 99% of videos and commentary on the M5, which are either authoritatively repeating the official data, or authoritatively speculating wildly. That thing is a pretty conservative design, the only new thing about the rifle itself (the scope might be part of the system but it's still an accessory) is the cartridge, and even that is getting downrated for general use.

 

[HelpingNoone]

Ian on the range with the Spear.

I'm not surprised by the M17 results. Mine took a couple hundred rounds to break in. It's probably one of my favorite striker fired guns now though.

 

[HumptiDouji]

It is possible to make a weaker round that is ballistically equivalent to a stronger round, and they could have done that here. If so, you can use the training round for marksmanship practice as recoil doesn’t matter as much if you’re carefully lining up each shot. Articles taking about the NGSW ammunition types refer to the training ammo as “reduced range”:

Which doesn't get past the recoil characteristic, you don't get used to shooting a .44 by just practicing with a .22

“Reduced range” probably refers to something like this; a training round that follows the same ballistic trajectory the same as the real round until a certain point where it falls off in order to prevent accidentally hitting someone’s house a mile downrange.

Ergo it's M2 Ball again, but goofy.

 

[Buttigieg2020]

Which doesn't get past the recoil characteristic, you don't get used to shooting a .44 by just practicing with a .22

Speaking of the military training on .22.

Wouldn’t be the first time.

 

[Smoke Manmuscle]

Obviously I can't prove anything but my personal theory is that they know trying to adopt an old rifle with a new caliber or a new rifle with an old caliber will lead to problems, they want to procure something made from scratch to make sure nobody's looking over their shoulders and try to turbofuck the project with silly ideas.
It's not like there's warehouses full of AR-10s that would be converted, so deviating from the Stoner design allows them to get a laundry list of bells and whistles that aren't compatible with AR-10s and would complicate the program with useless compromises.
Might as well add a ton of modern features, like a new way to hold the barrel and handguard, the plate for the bolt cam pin in the upper, etc.
It would have to be a piston AR because of suppressors.
Folding stocks are nice, so the buffer system would need to be changed. Since it's already going to be piston, might as well AR-18 that bolt and keep its travel inside the upper.
At that point it's already far gone from being an AR-10, there's no obligation to respect AR-10 specs, and even if they irrationally clinged to SR25/M110 specs just a few changes to modernize it would require paying for entirely new tooling and jigs (and machines since the production line would have to be greater than Knight's) so they're paying the same no matter how radical or purist they are with the AR-10 design.

I seem to remember the loaded round was not a clean sheet design from all competitors but rather the army handing them a proprietary bullet with a range and velocity requirement.

As for the gun the need for a new round with new performance requirements meant that the army could use this to finally try and break for a new gun.

Reduced range” probably refers to something like this; a training round that follows the same ballistic trajectory the same as the real round until a certain point where it falls off in order to prevent accidentally hitting someone’s house a mile downrange.

This.

 

[Corn Flakes]

Speaking of the military training on .22.
View attachment 3352594
Wouldn’t be the first time.

That's literally the same idea as the M5 "practice ammo", too. The ammo is cheaper, and it helps soldiers train marksmanship without developing a flinch due to harsh recoil.

 

[BONE_Buddy]

Do you really think the cartels would give enough of a shit to smuggle weapons into Texas or where-ever the fuck

Is there a profit? Yes. Then the Cartels would and do give a shit. Hell just the other day there was a A&N article on some Yakuza fuckwad getting busted for trying to smuggle anti-tank weapons (AT4 IIRC).

 

[Archie_Kimkicker]

Is there a profit? Yes. Then the Cartels would and do give a shit. Hell just the other day there was a A&N article on some Yakuza fuckwad getting busted for trying to smuggle anti-tank weapons (AT4 IIRC).

I have no doubt that the more politically-connected cartels are likely sending kickbacks to anti-gun politicians in border states. Another AWB would be a boon to them, and if one were to happen, you can expect the black market to be flooded with Norinco knockoffs of all your favorite gats.