I am a Blacksmith, I am a Primitive metal worker, I work with Metals, Wood and Stone so ask my anything pretinant, or related to history. - All other subjects are optional, and the meaning of life is 42, or any other thing you make of it.

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Phalanges Mycologist

kiwifarms.net
Joined
Sep 11, 2021
Right - I am posting this to share my love and passion for metalwork, but I will also cover elements of woodworking and stone working - and I also just know a lot of things and history.

This is a thread for me a professional Smith to be frank an open with questions other groups are not comfy with or even knowing of a concept to ask questions from myself an other professionals, and share our knowledge first and formost, there is no such thing as a stupid question and we should always answer honestly and fully but we should always encourage people to ask questions and learn from each other.

But seeing as I am a old world Master guild member (as of3 months ago) I will be as free and as open as I can be for the benifit of all.
 
How hard would it be to do metalworking in the middle of nowhere without access to propane, butane, etc.? I see many people doing metalworking but they usually have access to these fuel sources (I know it's important to keep the heat steady, but as you're a primitive metal worker, maybe you can answer this!)
 
How hard would it be to do metalworking in the middle of nowhere without access to propane, butane, etc.? I see many people doing metalworking but they usually have access to these fuel sources (I know it's important to keep the heat steady, but as you're a primitive metal worker, maybe you can answer this!)

If you have access to wood you can make charcoal, and with that you can do anything as long as you have some way of moving air through it - people have been working with Metals long before petrochemical fuel sources.

You ever get an overwhelming urge to put your dick on the anvil and smash it with a hammer.

I'm afraid I would and that's why I never took up smithing.

Nha occasionally I get the urge to put other people heads on my anvil to knock some sense into them but alas it's a futile course of action.
 
Is canola oil a reasonable quenching agent for 1083 steel (I keep seeing this pushed online) or should I look for something more specific to the job like parks 50? I'm looking to make a few knives via stock removal with grinders and files and just edge-quenching/hardening.
 
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I have a lot of respect for the true blacksmiths, I prefer a lathe and a mill and welder and all the lesser known "Modern blacksmith" equivalents. I've built some interesting things over the years how do you feel about CNC machinery or even conventional machine shop tools? Do you feel like it's cheating? Or do you respect it?


Also, Why the fuck do people call "Damascus steel" a lost art? Lost technology? I hear this shit every 12 months on some YT channel about history of how great it was and the "alchemy" of it was lost somewhere between apprentice and master and we haven't recovered it since. Have you noticed this as well?

Some of my better work. 1018 case hardened. Fucking thing will shoot the dick off a fly at 10 yards in the right hands.
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If someone were interested in picking up the trade, what would you recommend as a first project?
 
I have been holding onto various stones I've collected over the years from the places I've traveled so I can use them for bead making. I have minerals from the bottom of river beds, volcanic rock, and even a small chip of Hiroshima castle. Do you have any recommendations for a cheap tumbler? What about drilling holes in them? Do I need a special kind of drill?
 
Is canola oil a reasonable quenching agent for 1083 steel (I keep seeing this pushed online) or should I look for something more specific to the job like parks 50? I'm looking to make a few knives via stock removal with grinders and files and just edge-quenching/hardening.

Fairly reasonable just use it warmed up (like all oils it needs to be warm) and keep it moving not just up an down but try an get a little latteral movement on it helps break the vapor layer.

I have a lot of respect for the true blacksmiths, I prefer a lathe and a mill and welder and all the lesser known "Modern blacksmith" equivalents. I've built some interesting things over the years how do you feel about CNC machinery or even conventional machine shop tools? Do you feel like it's cheating? Or do you respect it?

I have a lot of respect for Machinists and there tools I own quite a few myself - I've got everything from a tiny 8mm watch makers lathe right upto a a 10in Center Height (in the UK we measure swing over bed to the middle of the spindle not over all chuck size traditionally) my go to lathe is a Drummond M-Type Pre B it's still on it's original base and is treadle powered so light cuts but it works beautify. I have a Deckle FP2 mill and a Bridgeport and a small Chinese bench top jobbie for my mills and I have 2 shapers one is another Drummond this case a MK1 shaper that's hand powered and another I am not quite sure who made it but is WW2 Vintage because of the War Department Stamp and War Finish stamped on the casting it was legitimately a scrap find I wasn't going to let it sit there an rust only to be melted down, I have a fair number of machines I've bought an put in storage to restore an either sell on or put to use in my new large shop.

I'm period accurate with my work so if a Tool didn't exist at the time period of something I am repairing or doing a reproduction of I wont use it and in some cases can't even if I wanted to because it's Heritage restoration and has to be done with the same sort of tools that the original craftsman had.

As for the respect - I have a lot of it for any craftsman and their art but CNC does feel like cheating to me but that's because it's yet another way people are being removed from the things they make and use, Manual Machinists though I just view them as the same sort of blokes as myself incidentally it wasn't until around WW1 there was much of a distinction between a Smith an a Machinist the closest you could really get was calling someone who worked on Mechanisms in general a Mechanic an that was something that has been done from about 1500 or so a great example of this is Mechanics Exorcises by Joseph Moxon it covered Woodworking, Blacksmithing, Basic mechanisms etc - that fell out of use relatively recently like in the last 100 years but a new term is coming into play and that Artificer but that's a slightly different story an use case but one that could apply to me.

Also, Why the fuck do people call "Damascus steel" a lost art? Lost technology? I hear this shit every 12 months on some YT channel about history of how great it was and the "alchemy" of it was lost somewhere between apprentice and master and we haven't recovered it since. Have you noticed this as well?

Mostly because they don't know what it is, Modern Damascus is just pattern welded steel in a mix of high carbon an low carbon that people get creative with. Damascus Steel in a historical context was called that because that's where it was sourced from for the European Market, Wootz Damascus is just a Crucible Steel like any other it was just made from Iron Ore that had a lot of interesting contaminants in it and those being nucleation points gave it the distinctive rain drop pattern because they could not get it hot enough for long enough to either burn them off or make them more diffuse, it looks nice and was the best available steel for a time but was superseded very quickly as soon as more modern furnace designs became available.

I can and do make my own crucible steel from time to time and when I do I make batches of it (I make my own wrought iron as well because the scrap stuff is getting harder an harder to find in useful quantities) and it takes me about a week from start to finish and depending on where I source my ore and any impurities in it I can get some rather interesting results - Just so you are aware O1 Tool Steel was initially made as a crucible process (by O1 I mean Steels like it not any specific brand) and it's made today by a different process but you could make it yourself if you had the time and resources.

But going back to your original question for a second it's mostly because it was "lost" people find it interesting, nobody wrote the process down end to end it was a trade secret and kept within extended families but there was an American Smith who worked it out called Al Pendray and he used ore from the region and it was nearly perfect in composition to historical examples on later inspection.

It wasn't a super steel or some lost magic material - nearly anything made today is much better but it's mystery endures.

If someone were interested in picking up the trade, what would you recommend as a first project?

Hardware, a good 95% of people getting into Smithing today graduate to metal from wood my first recomenation is learn to make basic hardware that you'd like to use on another project, lots of people say snails or alike but the historical answer and practical answer today is MAKE SOMETHING USEFUL. Making something simple an practical like a Nail teaches you more than one off looks nice projects things like fire control an maintenance (less important with a gas forge but still important), stock estimation i.e. I need a 2 in nail how long does my bar stick need to be?, tapering, Drawing out, off setting an upsetting, and consistent hammer control you learn that on basic stuff first because they are your basic competency's you need to master before you can progress. It's not sexy but it's how you learn an once you nailed the basics things get more interesting quickly.

Word of advice though as you progress upwards in skill learn to use a File properly it pays dividends - old saying goes 5 minutes at the forge will save you 15 with a file but the file will do what the art of the hammer can not. Good files are getting harder an harder to find (to the point I make my own for smaller riffler and special files) but they are one of the tools you really need to buy or make a good set of from and get them in Flat, Round, Square, triangle an Tapered in Bastard, 1st an 2nd cuts your first set can be cheapish while you learn to use them but learn to use them an graduate to better quality ones an turn the old ones into tools but keep the flat ones around for testing hardness. Also get and use the file card it will keep them working well for a long time and a block of chalk ran along the file before use will stop hard filings from building up the the teeth.


I have been holding onto various stones I've collected over the years from the places I've traveled so I can use them for bead making. I have minerals from the bottom of river beds, volcanic rock, and even a small chip of Hiroshima castle. Do you have any recommendations for a cheap tumbler? What about drilling holes in them? Do I need a special kind of drill?

Depends on the size of the stones tbh mate, an small stones like that are not something I normally work, Tumbling is media driven mechanism not machine driven and the ceramic stuff is the mutts nuts according to a Jeweller I know but it's not a process I am that used to using, and the same goes for drilling small stones you can buy micro burs now with diamond coated bits for this task I know that, but I don't work stone as much as I'd like especially the small stuff however on small stuff I do know drilling it is all about high speed an lubrication and you want to avoid hammering because it will break the bit an shatter the work - I will message my Jewler / Watch maker friends and see if they have any specific recommendations for you and I will also pull out a few of my books from my Libary an see what the old boys used to do.
 
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I've been considering property I can get a workshop built on and am a complete novice working metal by hand. I'd like to start off with some simple tools, and eventually castings with recycled aluminum. Just enough for some fun and learning, and skills that can't hurt to have.

1. What tools are a must have you would buy for a novice? I've looked at some cheaper anvils just to start off, I'll need some type of crucible, but I have no idea what to look for in quality. I've worked in construction, so I have hammers of various sizes and weights. Most of my tools are finer screwdrivers, sockets, and saws.

2. What essentials would you recommend for safety? Aka what are the most common ways a novice burns themselves / loses a finger, and how would you recommend being proactive in preventing injuries? Casting being what I want to learn, I've seen many ways water explodes in someone's face.
 
1. What tools are a must have you would buy for a novice? I've looked at some cheaper anvils just to start off, I'll need some type of crucible, but I have no idea what to look for in quality. I've worked in construction, so I have hammers of various sizes and weights. Most of my tools are finer screwdrivers, sockets, and saws.

1) Anvil Shaped Object, or one of those ACIO pattern anvils will get you started - you don't really need a proper anvil to start making stuff just something you can be sure wont catch fire or crumble under protracted use. The first anvils where made of stone and they where quite commonly used even in Europe, India an Asia in pourer parts of the world until recently, historically anvils where a lot smaller than people think an where not shaped like the modern London Pattern everyone thinks is a anvil. Historically anvils where quite small if you look at the anvils from the mastermyr find it will give you a better idea of what I am talking about and that guy was forging his own tools and tools for sale and he was by no means an oddity - I've made more than a few in that size range for myself and for resale and use them just as much as my more modern ones, I've got a BIG just shy of a Ton anvil I got from a ship yard that was being sold and I paid less for it than the smaller anvils everybody went nuts for because I was the only fucker who could move it and it's of limited utility as your hardly ever going to use something that large - but ignore jewellers an other Cast Iron anvils especially the cheap ones great for setting soft copper rivets for leather workers or larger jewellery work but for Smiths work they are useless.

2) Tongs, Flat, Bolt, Wolf and "Blade" Tong's as a beginner should be what you go for here, the commercial sets are a great starting point but you should learn to make your own as one of your first projects there are lot's of great resources on this but when I was training an building my first tools I was given a pair of Tongs an was told to "Copy that" an left to my own devices till I had come up with a functional tool.

3) Anvil Tools, These I will say make your own you can buy them but it's more educational and once you have BASIC tool's an hammer / fire skills you can make in quick order and provide a wonderful learning experience in quite a few realms such as sizing, drawing, upsetting, forming and aneling (these tools are with a few rare exceptions never hardened), and your VERY first one should be a Hold Down for 2 reasons the first is this gives you a nice way to hold work on your Anvil or ASO and secondly it's also your first commercial project because Carpenters and Cabinet makers use them and are a easy an profitable way to make your education pay for it's self and that's a really important subject.

4) Most of the tools you currently have are not likely all that useful (apart from Files and a drill) your hammers especially so, Smiths hammers are not hardened as much as a Claw hammer, Ball Penn and Sledge an Lump hammers are, Smiths hammers are softer because they are working with Hot material most of the time so over time will soften but your also striking metal on metal and against other hardened metal so a hard hammer will fuck up your Anvil face or chip it an the hammer and this is not something you want you want your working face to be smooth an your tools as unmarked as it leaves artifacts in the work and can also hurt you, but there are other reasons. The good news is you can buy a smithing hammer cheaply and if you need to reuse what you have you can anneal the face in a fire or with a blow torch if you have to, but it's important you get a hammer YOU can swing for hours with a handle that fits your hand AND SWING.

Hammer work hot or cold is defined by the level of control an comfort you have with the tool my day to day 95% of my working day is spent with a Czechoslovakian Pattern (In the US, just a Stubby in the UK) with a shallow rounding face and a cross peen and weighs about 32oz - this size an weight is determined by a lot of factors like height, weight (as in your ass not the tool), general fitness, your confidence and frankly mood.

4) Files, and a Rasp, Wire Brush, Files a varied set of them are a fucking must they can do things you can not do what a hammer can't and they hide a lot of crimes and are as a tool about 3000 years old at this point for metal work, get a cheap set an learn to use them correctly and graduate to better ones as your work and experience dictates but don't throw the old ones away they are a nice source of material and have there use when testing hardness when you've outgrown them by listening an feeling for skate.

Rasps - These are not woodworkers Rasps, no these are an allied trades tool the Farrier (a Smith doesn't shoe a horse, (most cant an much to the consternation of my Mrs I am amongst that group) call around your local farriers and see if they will give you or sell you some of there worn out rasps (if you don't have any local Shoe Heads ebay has them for buttons) these are hard wide cutting files designed to meld a biological material and a metal into a seamless fit with each other and work with HOT iron an steel really well as a preparation for later work, with a more detailed file (and I am over simplifying this for brevity).

Wire Brush, just go to a cheap home goods or DIY shop and buy the wire brush sold for cleaning patios or concrete etc you don't need a block scrubber, but you do need one as it cleans of the Slag an Oxide layer from your hot work and this is the difference between cheap nasty an mass produced and refined expensive work, Iron (an Steel) forms an oxide layer when heating a cooling the most common most people know is Rusting but it happens at high or even moderate Temperatures as the material is oxidising it's just not brown an shitty and also dumping carbon an other impurities on the surface this knocks them off, these are hard an undesirable inclusions in your work that lead to failure points composed of various elements and are heavy in silica and carbon the carbons not the issue but the other materials are.

Indecently if you get a pure brass brush (not just a brass coated one) and run it over your hot work you can give the Surface a nice brass coating, you can do it with copper to a point but it's not worth doing, but this is where the term "Brassed off" comes from.

6) Your brain, this is the BEST and Sharpest tool you have in your tool box but it needs maintenance, you can watch all the videos, read all the books an chew all the shit but YOU are the guy behind the hammer, it's down to you to learn how to make something fit something an make it work, Smith are not machinists we became them an are oddly weirdly good machinists but our materials and how we work them is not the same we have to guestimate from our own experience a good 99% of measurements and because our work is consistently imperfect "plans" are a rough guide and a diagram of how it should work at best, don't get pissed that you can't his an exact dimension outside of pure luck that rarely happens and that's what fitting with files an stones is for.

If you have any specific questions @Haywire please ask them here or feel free to drop me a DM, and if your based in the UK or EU I might be able to pass you a few bits to get you started.

And I need to write another post about foundry work on its own as that is a different discipline, historically let alone today few Smiths have, I do have it but it's best covered in its own reply.

What's the most exotic metal/alloy you've worked with?

Titanium without a doubt, it in of its self is exotic, but there are lots of grades an alloys that complicate things and I'd never work it without a machine be it on a lathe or a press it's one of those materials I respect but just fucking hate and I'm extremely glad I don't have to work with it much or at all and it's a very stressy material in a way you can't just anneal and flatten it a few times to make it work. It has technical fracture shear points that makes working it by hand like a normal metal nearly impossible and it requires a lot of special processes or heat ranges a normal smith or machinist cant hold or work at for prolonged periods if at all. I work with some rather exotic steels for a few clients some of them are not public as well but nothing approaches Ti as a material for fucking weird.

If you want a more "Normal" material acting odd it's inconel it forges like slow glass its a lovely material to work with both as a smith or a machinist and the two skills working together can do some amazing shit.
 
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I bough my first silver coins to practice making an engagement ring with the end goal being one made from gold and a stone.I plan on casting in sepia bone and also free-forming and welding a bunch of rings first.Planning on using charcoal and industrial hot air blower and ceramic creusetes.For the stone i was thinking 4 prong set.
I guess my questions are :
Should I pick free-form or casting in your opinion? I see mixed opinions and decided to try both just to see, but im all ears if you have a recommendation.
I was planning on using small pieces of silver cut to size and squeezed in the weld gap, tighten with copper and fire.Does this sound reasonable?
Any other tips for what im trying to do very welcome, I'm still kinda clueless
 
You have video games that increment copper, gold, iron, and gold is weak so using it as solid armor is futile.

Same thing for bronze, because of its mixture with tin some think it's weaker than iron, as iron is a solid ore and not two parts.

Many believe iron is stronger than bronze, but iron is told to be weaker than bronze, the bronze era.

What are your thoughts on bronze being stronger than iron and how modern video games like minecraft portray the hierarchy of equipment strength?

I think the they have simply forgotten what metals were important in a grand scale, and then the information taken from one another is also wrong as the right information is outdated.
 
You have video games that increment copper, gold, iron, and gold is weak so using it as solid armor is futile.

Same thing for bronze, because of its mixture with tin some think it's weaker than iron, as iron is a solid ore and not two parts.

Many believe iron is stronger than bronze, but iron is told to be weaker than bronze, the bronze era.

What are your thoughts on bronze being stronger than iron and how modern video games like minecraft portray the hierarchy of equipment strength?

I think the they have simply forgotten what metals were important in a grand scale, and then the information taken from one another is also wrong as the right information is outdated.

As a metal it's is strong it's just not all that suitable for weapons an armour, but at the time it was common it was a metal that was available and looked good, Copper work hardens i.e. you stress it it get's harder (over simplification but I am not getting into advanced metallurgy atm) it also deforms in a non elastic state so a knife or sword made from a copper based alloy or pure coper is of limited usefulness as an edged weapon (but it's utility as as a blunt weapon continues).

Iron became the goto material because it was more ductile and elastic depending on how it was worked and it's intended use, and when Steel and iron alloy became available that was not just predictable but also reliably so it won out as a material for tools, weapons an well everything else, and there is also a cost factor involved Iron is stupidly common its made as a waste product of some bacteria and is easer to process as well as it's mechanical properties.

Just to give you a personal example - I am building a toolbox at the moment that I am building stylised like a medieval reliquary and I am doing a repuse embellishment on each face, each panel (6 in total) has a 30x30cm piece I am working on and the Steel pair I have worked on each for 12 - 20 hours on and had maybe one full aneling / normalising cycle on each and thousands of hammer an former blows on, the Brass on the other hand is something I've had to baby sit and the working life is bad like a few hundred strikes before I have to spot anneal an then it only lasts a little while before I have to do it to the whole work piece just to even it out, so to get the same result as I do in steel it has took me about 60 hours - and it's less forgiving to work with so you can't patch it as easy as iron or steel so if you over work it an make a hole it's a bastard to patch.

I think with your initial question you are conflating hardness with toughness, and a general misunderstanding of the terms used, and combining that with a misunderstanding of how things work, and also how manufacturing worked in a pre-industial setting, and how they where used was different - today we think we are big on recycling, we're not even if your someone who recycles religiously your still more waistful than 95% of people before the mid 1700's and still for a long time until the 50's across the western world repair an reuse was not just a motto it was a core part of your life.

Burning down an old building outside of a city to recover the iron was a common practice, not only to loseten mortar to recover bricks an stone as a building material, but also the metal - the humble nail something you can go into any DIY or Builders merchant world wide in bag's of 100 for less than a hour's worth of your time would be mind boggling to most people before the 1850's.

As a Smith I can make any nail of any size I need and I can use waist heat to do it, while I am waiting for other work to get upto temp or use it as a teaching experience to an apprentice etc I can knock a 2" nail out in 4 or 5 strokes of a hammer but I can't beat a machine that can do it in 1 and do it from pre sized expected an planned stock, just for basic carpentry or joinery work - imagine if I have to make some that are hardened an tempered, or even brassed off.

These are things that add to the cost of an iron product, that even to this day makes it cheaper than a coper, bronze or brass item and the iron is more flexible in how it works, how it's worked and how it endures.

Copper is also far more valuable than Iron, something like 80 - 85 % of all the copper ever mined in human history has been an always will be recycled and has been smelted down an recycled hundreds or thousands of times because Copper like glass and aluminium it doesn't lose mass when refined through recycling and what scattered objects from history we do find are rare examples, but iron is cheap an easy to make so its more common place so won out as the material of choice.
 
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In general, do you prefer using machines or stones for sharpening?
 
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