Idea for merging action, RPG, and RTS fairly seamlessly

mr.moon1488

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Something I was thinking about was a way to have deep action, and RPG aspects in a RTS game. This has been tried before, but a lot of times it either leads to a hard to manage clusterfuck, or a RTS, with some very light RPG elements. Fall out 4 saw a merger of base building, a common element in RTS games, with their main element being action/RPG. This kind of ended up just being a nuisance, which left the player who was ostensibly "the general" in a situation where they didn't really do much other than respond to meaningless attacks, that didn't really change much if you lost, or won. Likewise, a lot of RTS games have had elements to where individual units can become stronger with combat experience, but half the time, you just lose those units in later engagements, so they end up having little to no impact on the game play.

A potential method I've thought might be able to streamline this is to simply treat individual NPCs, as individuals when they are solo, but to treat them as part of a unit when grouped. So basically something like this. Let's say you have five NPC allies in a squad which follow you around. You would command them similar to what you would in a game like Ghost Recon, but if you have more than that, you can form them into a unit where you would give them more generalized commands. So let's say you have recruited 50 NPCs. What you would do in this set up is to take a certain number of those which you prefer directly under your control, and then place the rest of them in a unit. The individual NPCs would have have the same individual stats, and gear like what they would if they were un-grouped, but instead you would command them as if they were a singular entity. Likewise, rather than having bases which you micromanage every aspect of, you could instead build a base, and then set NPCs to garrison it. How loot would be handled is that if lets say you order a unit to loot a building, after they were finished, and found everything they could find, they would give you a summary of the operation. In the summary, you would get a run down of casualties, and any, and all loot found. If you marked a loot item for "personal use" it would be added to your personal stash, which you could collect at any location which had access. After you have done this, you can either order the unit to divvy up the loot, which would cause the NPCs to select the best items for their class, and then add the rest to inventory, or you could order them to hold all. If you ordered them to hold all, you could then order them to "dump" the items into the inventories of whatever base you sent them to after the operation. After they do this, you could tell the garrison units to divvy up the stock, which would allow them to take the optimal gear.

TLDR: The basic command scheme is this

I have units: ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOP

Rather than give them individual orders, I put {EFGHIJKLMNOP} into groups. So Group 1 is {KLMNOP}, which I treat as a singular entity. Group 2 is {EFGHIJ}, which is likewise treated as a singular entity. For whatever reason, I wanted units ABCD to follow my player character around, and do various things. So really, outside of those NPCs I picked to follow me, I'm only commanding two units, which makes things a lot more straight forward.
 
Dunno man, this sounds to me like you just weren't content with semi/full hybrids like Warcraft 3, Kenshi, Pikmin, Little King's Story, Spellforce, Dungeon Siege etc. for one reason or another. It's not a new concept to mix and match action RPG and RTS in varying amounts, and I'm only adding Dungeon Siege there because there's no other way to feel about a small army mowing down gobbos with swords. Oh and Hinterland, definitely.


EDIT: Oh right, and Majesty 1 & 2. Those games have you barely command any of the RPG elements, they're mostly independent of you. Look into those.

The individual NPCs would have have the same individual stats, and gear like what they would if they were un-grouped, but instead you would command them as if they were a singular entity. Likewise, rather than having bases which you micromanage every aspect of, you could instead build a base, and then set NPCs to garrison it. How loot would be handled is that if lets say you order a unit to loot a building, after they were finished, and found everything they could find, they would give you a summary of the operation. In the summary, you would get a run down of casualties, and any, and all loot found.
Even Monster Hunter World has you send out Palicoes on exploration tours. It has become a very common feature in a lot of games to order invisible groups to carry out tasks or defend positions. Not necessarily in the exact way you're thinking of, but again it just sounds like it was never good enough for your specific tastes.

I have units: ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOP

Rather than give them individual orders, I put {EFGHIJKLMNOP} into groups. So Group 1 is {KLMNOP}, which I treat as a singular entity. Group 2 is {EFGHIJ}, which is likewise treated as a singular entity. For whatever reason, I wanted units ABCD to follow my player character around, and do various things. So really, outside of those NPCs I picked to follow me, I'm only commanding two units, which makes things a lot more straight forward.
What you're describing is the most basic mechanic all RTS games have; Binding groups into number keys. I can't even name an RTS that didn't do this, I've never seen one lack that feature.

Likewise, a lot of RTS games have had elements to where individual units can become stronger with combat experience, but half the time, you just lose those units in later engagements, so they end up having little to no impact on the game play.
I'm sorry to say that is a sign of you just being terrible at RTS games. It's a gripe I hear XCOM newbies complain about all the time because they're not used to games having stakes. If you don't want to lose your valuable units, don't risk them. Learn to micro valued units away (start with games that let you pause the action.)
 
Dunno man, this sounds to me like you just weren't content with semi/full hybrids like Warcraft 3, Kenshi, Pikmin, Little King's Story, Spellforce, Dungeon Siege etc. for one reason or another. It's not a new concept to mix and match action RPG and RTS in varying amounts, and I'm only adding Dungeon Siege there because there's no other way to feel about a small army mowing down gobbos with swords. Oh and Hinterland, definitely.



Even Monster Hunter World has you send out Palicoes on exploration tours. It has become a very common feature in a lot of games to order invisible groups to carry out tasks or defend positions. Not necessarily in the exact way you're thinking of, but again it just sounds like it was never good enough for your specific tastes.


What you're describing is the most basic mechanic all RTS games have; Binding groups into number keys. I can't even name an RTS that didn't do this, I've never seen one lack that feature.


I'm sorry to say that is a sign of you just being terrible at RTS games. It's a gripe I hear XCOM newbies complain about all the time because they're not used to games having stakes. If you don't want to lose your valuable units, don't risk them. Learn to micro valued units away (start with games that let you pause the action.)
Pikmin? I've played it, but didn't see a lot of RPG aspects. Kenshi is the most similar to what I'm talking about I suppose. This, and XCOM is not a RTS. What I'm talking about is a system which A: still has deep RPG elements, B: allows you to play as an individual on the battlefield, and C: not so hard to micromanage that you spend most of your time just running around the map trying to plug holes.

"What you're describing is the most basic mechanic all RTS games have; Binding groups into number keys." Not really. Yes, it's binding units into singular entities, but no it's not just number keys where the most advanced command you can give is "go bum rush this place as a group." It's more like, you draw an area on the map you want the units in the group to take over, and then they destroy all enemies in that area, set a cordon around that area, search that area, report back to you, and then you act on that report.

Basically, what I'm saying is that the units directly assigned to you the player still mostly rely on tactical directives from you. If you assign them to a group, you can give them strategic level objectives, and the AI executes all tasks at the tactical level unless you directly interject into it. (e.g. Your order: secure this city block. AI response by priority: Block off high speed avenues of approach, block off all smaller access routes, carefully search each building.)

So if you were to walk up to a unit you'd assigned to a task, they'd actually be preforming said task, rather than just wandering around aimlessly.

That sounds incredibly autistic.
Yeah, you'd pretty much have to have an autist to program all of this. Some of it might be streamlined by the fact that just like IRL, you do have individual intelligences acting within their role. Regular grunt: kill enemies in field of fire < Team leader: Position grunts to optimize fields of fire < Squad leader: Same task as team leader, but larger area and less detail < Platoon leader: more generalized objective like secure this city block.

Programming it would be pretty hard, but the concept is pretty basic. You/the player: gives an order -> 1st AI gives command to subordinate units -> subordinate units assign their subordinate units to fulfill the commands until you get to extremely basic details. So "secure this area" turns into "unit 1 guard street A, unit 2 guard alley C, unit 3 set up a gun position in front of field D" and so on.

Simplified explanation:

You'd assign units to operate under the AI, and the AI would process shit in a general order of: General instructions from the player -> Specific instructions from the AI.

I.e. (the player) Big picture -> (the AI) Little picture
 
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Pikmin? I've played it, but didn't see a lot of RPG aspects. Kenshi is the most similar to what I'm talking about I suppose. This, and XCOM is not a RTS. What I'm talking about is a system which A: still has deep RPG elements, B: allows you to play as an individual on the battlefield, and C: not so hard to micromanage that you spend most of your time just running around the map trying to plug holes.
I simply took XCOM as an example for how people complain about the loss of high value units. Doesn't have to be an RTS for the value thing to be relevant. As for Pikmin, that's simply at the far end of the RTS-scale where you still control a minimal amount of people action RPG-style while only commanding around others as one physically present leader.

"What you're describing is the most basic mechanic all RTS games have; Binding groups into number keys." Not really. Yes, it's binding units into singular entities, but no it's not just number keys where the most advanced command you can give is "go bum rush this place as a group." It's more like, you draw an area on the map you want the units in the group to take over, and then they destroy all enemies in that area, set a cordon around that area, search that area, report back to you, and then you act on that report.

Basically, what I'm saying is that the units directly assigned to you the player still mostly rely on tactical directives from you. If you assign them to a group, you can give them strategic level objectives, and the AI executes all tasks at the tactical level unless you directly interject into it. (e.g. Your order: secure this city block. AI response by priority: Block off high speed avenues of approach, block off all smaller access routes, carefully search each building.)

So if you were to walk up to a unit you'd assigned to a task, they'd actually be preforming said task, rather than just wandering around aimlessly.


Yeah, you'd pretty much have to have an autist to program all of this. Some of it might be streamlined by the fact that just like IRL, you do have individual intelligences acting within their role. Regular grunt: kill enemies in field of fire < Team leader: Position grunts to optimize fields of fire < Squad leader: Same task as team leader, but larger area and less detail < Platoon leader: more generalized objective like secure this city block.

Programming it would be pretty hard, but the concept is pretty basic. You/the player: gives an order -> 1st AI gives command to subordinate units -> subordinate units assign their subordinate units to fulfill the commands until you get to extremely basic details. So "secure this area" turns into "unit 1 guard street A, unit 2 guard alley C, unit 3 set up a gun position in front of field D" and so on.
I get what you're driving at in more detail now, but the more you think about it, the more it sounds like a TBS game like Civilization where all the itty bitty details are hidden because of the scale. If you want an RTS with all that, most people also want the micro along with it and not as much automation. You should straight up make that yourself as a niche product if that's what speaks to you, but most RTS-fans would call it dumbing it down, while I'd expect most RPG-fans to not feel as involved with something with such scale. RPG is already about being one specific person, and the more scale you control in, the less it starts to feel like you're actually role-playing.

Personally, I feel this idea sounds like a feature creep that concentrates on the fluff more than the mechanics. That's not necessarily bad since I love fluff in games, but I wouldn't expect it to work with anyone but niche audiences (keeping in mind that even something like Stardew Valley is a niche game, but it hit such an unfilled niche that it got a huge audience for its efforts.)
 
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I simply took XCOM as an example for how people complain about the loss of high value units. Doesn't have to be an RTS for the value thing to be relevant. As for Pikmin, that's simply at the far end of the RTS-scale where you still control a minimal amount of people action RPG-style while only commanding around others as one physically present leader.


I get what you're driving at in more detail now, but the more you think about it, the more it sounds like a TBS game like Civilization where all the itty bitty details are hidden because of the scale. If you want an RTS with all that, most people also want the micro along with it and not as much automation. You should straight up make that yourself as a niche product if that's what speaks to you, but most RTS-fans would call it dumbing it down, while I'd expect most RPG-fans to not feel as involved with something with such scale. RPG is already about being one specific person, and the more scale you control in, the less it starts to feel like you're actually role-playing.

Personally, I feel this idea sounds like a feature creep that concentrates on the fluff more than the mechanics. That's not necessarily bad since I love fluff in games, but I wouldn't expect it to work with anyone but niche audiences (keeping in mind that even something like Stardew Valley is a niche game, but it hit such an unfilled niche that it got a huge audience for its efforts.)
Well, the main goal is actually to not lose any content for the RPG fans. They basically keep everything from their perspective. I'd like to also keep everything for the hardcore RTS players, though the general model I have in mind might make it to where the hardcore autist is basically a god in multiplayer lol. More, or less, the ideal is that you can give simple orders to have complex tasks accomplished, but if you just give a general order to the AI, it will fill in the details.

Best way I can think to explain the general scheme is that if you give a platoon over to the AI, and tell it to "secure this area," and that area is pretty much a field in the middle of nowhere, it's going to position the units you've given it kinda like this. If what you told them to do is important enough, you can get way down into the weeds where you're arranging the individual units around considerations like dead space, high speed avenues of approach, known enemy positions, etc, but the AI auto plan is pretty much acceptable in most instances, so you can still go and enjoy the action/rpg aspects of the game unless shit really hits the fan, and when that happens, it's normally meaningful enough to where it doesn't feel like a chore.

patrol-base-plt-fire-plan-l.jpg
 
I only skimmed it but it sounds a lot like ogre battle.

If more people want a new Ogre Battle, more power to them. That shit is dope.
 
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I only skimmed it but it sounds a lot like ogre battle.

If more people want a new Ogre Battle, more power to them. That shit is dope.
From what I can tell by looking it up, it looks very similar to what I'm thinking of. At least the general structure is the same. Lol, honestly looking at it now, what I'm talking about really seems kinda like just a more modernized version of that.
 
From what I can tell by looking it up, it looks very similar to what I'm thinking of. At least the general structure is the same. Lol, honestly looking at it now, what I'm talking about really seems kinda like just a more modernized version of that.
I'd definitely recommend trying Ogre Battle 64. It's a bit slow but it's one of my favorite games ever. I'd also say it might help give you more in depth design ideas for the genre.
 
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I'd definitely recommend trying Ogre Battle 64. It's a bit slow but it's one of my favorite games ever. I'd also say it might help give you more in depth design ideas for the genre.
Well really, in the general model I'm thinking of "slow" is kind of a good thing. I'd like to have it to where you can have stuff going on at the RTS level, and actually see that going on when you're walking around the map doing your own shit. So basically, you're going into this ruined town, but about five minutes into just general looting, and shooting, you see the entire division you assigned to capturing that town show up, and start wrecking all of the enemies in that area, and a short time later they're setting up sandbags, and C-wire on all the roads in, and out.

Though yeah, Ogre battle is pretty much what I'm talking about, only with the added layer of the player being an individual piece on the battle field too. So more, or less.

Big picture to little picture.
Strategic level
Tactical level
Individual level (the player himself walking around doing shit)
 
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It actually sounds like what Men of War was trying to do.

I think this would really work best with something like Homeworld, where instead of action it’s a flight sim... so basically the X series.

The main problem with combining action with RTS mechanics is that they’re basically antithetical - Either your character is so powerful that it’s Dynasty Warriors and you’re just plowing through guys and unbalancing the strategy... or your character is balanced with everything else and is basically no more useful as an action character than as a general.

Ok, last try... what about aTotal War game, but with actual chains of command, where each group is controlled by a player, but only the general can actually see the whole battlefield. The general is playing a full RTS, the squad leaders are somewhere between Dynasty Warriors and Pikmin.
 
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