Let's talk about the Virgin Mary.

Elaine Benes

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I am effectively an atheist. I was not raised with any significant religious influence and do not belong to any formal religious tradition.

However, in recent years I have been finding myself very interested in Catholicism from an aesthetic point of view. Specifically, I am in awe of how many Catholics worldwide have an extreme reverence towards the Virgin Mary.

While I do not believe any of the supernatural aspects of the Bible, whenever I go to an art museum I am always drawn to the serene beauty of Renaissance-era depictions of Her. She seems to portray a very deep, almost orthodox femininity that, while incompatible in some ways with modern American society, speaks to me as a man. It feels right.

Is it wrong for me to have a deep philosophical connection to the Virgin Mary despite being irreligious?
 
Is it wrong for me to have a deep philosophical connection to the Virgin Mary despite being irreligious?

That's called appreciating the aesthetics of a religion despite not following it. Everyone does that. Look at how many people romanticize ancient Roman, Greek and Egyptian deities. People seem more ambivalent of recognizing their fascination with one religion's doctrine if it's a religion that's still followed by a significant amount of people which they themselves don't follow, but all that goes out the window with dead religions, since they're seen as more of a novelty than anything.
 
You do not have to be religious to appreciate the art and music of a 2 millennial old mythology..

I love, love, love this song, and the art that is with it.


Edit to add some spergery.
I do not mean my use of the word "mythology" as an insult nor will I comment on my own beliefs on the great question of whether or not there exists a deity.

Historically, I believe that the Catholics had it right as far as their reverence for Mary. It was a purely utilitarian blend of spreading a basically patriarchal Judaic religion to pagan tribes who often had women as objects of worship.
To this day, it gives women an entree into Catholicism and were it not for women in the Catholic church, I have my doubts that it would be as strong a sect in the whole Christian thing.
I find the whole story of a mother making the ultimate sacrifice as one that all mothers can relate to.
 
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Beside all the memes, aesthetics are an important part of a culture and people. Christianity had an aesthetic of being awe inspiring and grand. No wonder it's appealing.
Cathedrals were not only about the church flexing their power but communicating the message of the religion through architecture* and art. That's an art that is lost for the beancounter focused and "we must only have buildings for a few decades" style of thinking we have now.

Same goes for the religious texts. It is supposed to be awe inspiring.

* For example Islamic Mosques are usually fortifications with bulky buildings and guard towers... Signalling the more militant style of domination and discipline it requires.
 
That's called appreciating the aesthetics of a religion despite not following it. Everyone does that. Look at how many people romanticize ancient Roman, Greek and Egyptian deities. People seem more ambivalent of recognizing their fascination with one religion's doctrine if it's a religion that's still followed by a significant amount of people which they themselves don't follow, but all that goes out the window with dead religions, since they're seen as more of a novelty than anything.
We had this massive 'egyptomania' back in the early 20th Century during the interwar years after the discovery of Tut's tomb, it was a pretty significant influence on the development of the then-emerging 'Art Deco' architectural/art movement.

So yeah, it's entirely possible to be fascinated with the aesthetics whilst not following the religion.
 
On this topic, I really like The Order's religion from Silent Hill (3), specifically the whole part about humanity creating God and not the other way around as it is with every other religion. Makes me wish there was a real-world religion like that. I know it takes some inspiration from Buddhism, but The Order is a really unique mix of Buddhism and Christianity which otherwise are religions that clash violently in doctrine and methodology. Which is another aspect of The Order that I find so amusing.
 
The blue veil of Our Lady is such a powerful symbol as well.

I've spoken to Catholics who are very Mary-centric in the way they worship and pray, and they extend the significance of veils to a concept they refer to as "Marian feminism." Essentially, just as sacred objects have a cloth placed over them in a church, women are God's sacred vessels of worship and should be veiled accordingly. This slightly contradicts the reasoning Paul gives for veiling in Corinthians, but nevertheless cements the role in Catholicism that women play: they are to be models of Mary.

Other aspects of Mass attire play into the aesthetics of Catholicism. Last night I was in the Beauty Parlor discussing formalwear, specifically the wearing of gloves with evening gowns. I was reminded of a Latíno friend of mine who, out of respect for her deep Mexican Catholic heritage, attends significant feasts in a formal dress with a black veil and long white gloves. While it's not at all common anymore in most mainline Catholic churches, faithful men and women would do well to consider how their own personal aesthetic enhances the intense beauty of one of the few truly global faiths.
 
One of the interesting parts is that at the time the idea of telegony was a common theme in religions. Telegony was part of Aristotle's perspective on biology. It's the idea that paternity could be shared. In mythology, this would be having one father who is mortal and the other an immortal god.

It wasn't just the idea of physical mating either. There was also the idea that the passions of the mother would change the child. So if the mother was secretly in love with another man, or worshipped a certain god, then her kids would inherit some of those traits. So part of paternity could be conception based on an idea or connection to another.

In that sense, it was not a large leap for christians to create a divinely impregnated virgin. It wasn't a huge difference compared to the idea of women being impregnated by the sea, or a god transformed into a bull etcetera.

Christianity has been inspiring people for two millenia, of course there are going to be some very good ideas and some very beautiful motifs connected to it.

What better time to be enamored by images of chastity or demure femininity than our time?
 
When it comes to similarities to concepts in other religions, meditation is a potent force in Catholicism at a similar level to Eastern faiths.

Mary is the center of one of the most meditative aspects of Catholicism: the Rosary. It is so easy to get lost in the persistent hailing of Mary because of its repetitive nature, and the physical elegance of the rosary is yet another vital component of sacred art. It is as if Mary presented it to Dominic for that exact reason.

On the feast of Our Lady of the Rosary in October, many churches hold mass recitations of the Rosary. One phenomenon I have seen pictures of, particularly in the Philippines, is the construction of a massive rosary out of helium balloons, with 60+ parishioners holding each "bead." After the recitation is complete, the balloon rosary is released to cheers and applause. One particularly jubilant celebration I saw a video of once involved a giant banner reading "AVE MARIA" tied to the rosary, the Hallelujah Chorus playing in the background, and spectators releasing balloons as well. It was an incredibly fervent example of celebrating Mary.

Despite having never recited it in full, I do indeed own a silver rosary with imitation pearl beads and a Sacred Heart medallion. I find myself holding it on occasion when I am having a sleepless night, and while I do not know all of the prayers by heart, I receive emotional satisfaction from vocally reciting ten Hail Marys at a time and kissing each bead as I go along while sporadically making the Sign of the Cross.

The friend I mentioned previously is not only devoted to the Rosary herself (and kisses every bead too) but is encouraging myself and another friend of mine to pray it with her over Zoom. The other friend is Latíno and irreligious like myself, but our extended families are both highly devout. We may take her up on the offer simply to pay tribute to our own Catholic heritage.
 
This made me smile.
When it comes to similarities to concepts in other religions, meditation is a potent force in Catholicism at a similar level to Eastern faiths.

Mary is the center of one of the most meditative aspects of Catholicism: the Rosary. It is so easy to get lost in the persistent hailing of Mary because of its repetitive nature, and the physical elegance of the rosary is yet another vital component of sacred art. It is as if Mary presented it to Dominic for that exact reason.

On the feast of Our Lady of the Rosary in October, many churches hold mass recitations of the Rosary. One phenomenon I have seen pictures of, particularly in the Philippines, is the construction of a massive rosary out of helium balloons, with 60+ parishioners holding each "bead." After the recitation is complete, the balloon rosary is released to cheers and applause. One particularly jubilant celebration I saw a video of once involved a giant banner reading "AVE MARIA" tied to the rosary, the Hallelujah Chorus playing in the background, and spectators releasing balloons as well. It was an incredibly fervent example of celebrating Mary.

Despite having never recited it in full, I do indeed own a silver rosary with imitation pearl beads and a Sacred Heart medallion. I find myself holding it on occasion when I am having a sleepless night, and while I do not know all of the prayers by heart, I receive emotional satisfaction from vocally reciting ten Hail Marys at a time and kissing each bead as I go along while sporadically making the Sign of the Cross.

The friend I mentioned previously is not only devoted to the Rosary herself (and kisses every bead too) but is encouraging myself and another friend of mine to pray it with her over Zoom. The other friend is Latíno and irreligious like myself, but our extended families are both highly devout. We may take her up on the offer simply to pay tribute to our own Catholic heritage.
My partner is a fundamentalist christian and is highly suspicious of the prayers that Catholics chant in unison.
They seem to think that it is some type of mindless and insincere rote repeating of words, that have no fervor or belief behind them.
I see repetitive prayers like the Rosary comparable to the Buddist Namu Myōhō Renge Kyō.

Let's just say that my partner finds mysticism and ritual very troubling.
Damn Prods, take the fun out of everything. :)
 
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This made me smile.

My partner is a fundamentalist christian and is highly suspicious of the prayers that Catholics chant in unison.
They seem to think that it is some type of mindless and insincere rote repeating of words, that have no fervor or belief behind them.
I see repetitive prayers like the Rosary comparable to the Buddist Namu Myōhō Renge Kyō.

Let's just say that my partner finds mysticism and ritual very troubling.
Damn Prods, take the fun out of everything. :)
I can see where your partner is coming from, but the connection to the past one gets from reciting prayers that have been said identically for centuries, in all corners of the world, and in hundreds of languages is overwhelmingly beautiful.

Not only that, it is not unrealistic to think that if I were to recite a Hail Mary right now, I would be saying it at the exact same time as hundreds of thousands...if not millions...of people worldwide. If there had to be a one-world religion, and it was Roman Catholicism, the rote prayers would serve as the collective spiritual pulse of humanity.
 
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Chanting is interesting. I once heard a Christian preacher say that all religions used to heavily focus on chanting (and they did), but with the advent of Jesus forgiving all inherent sin, the requirement to spend every moment appeasing a god became obsolete.

Elaine makes me think of how Christianity would probably have more strength to it in modern times if it didn't come with the threat of eternal damnation. I believe it's gradual decline in the west is in part due to how it tries to balance the philosophy of peace and belonging with that of the threat of damnation, which is a confusing contrast and very off-putting. I think if Abrahamic religions dropped the damnation thing, they'd probably get more support. I know it's been tried before with some sects but it never gained any traction (and also never made sense). Religions really need to adapt and become competitive with modern distractions, since learning has become hyper-accelerated with the advent of the internet and now it's commonplace for people to find a lifestyle choice that does not need the validation of religion. I know I've tried to find a religion to belong to in the past, but all of them involving some kind of punishment system absolutely didn't help my inherent atheistic feelings. Closest thing I ever found was Theistic Satanism/Lucifarianism, but that's too obscure to really get passionate about, and is so non-standard that pretty much every single follower has their own idea of how the faith works. Also it's teeming with paranoid anti-Semites and I really don't feel like joining an A&H religion.
Although I will say, the few rituals I tried did feel really fun and relaxing. You know, just setting up some candles and sitting there, nothing that esoteric.
 
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Although I will say, the few rituals I tried did feel really fun and relaxing. You know, just setting up some candles and sitting there, nothing that esoteric.
I would love to try prayer by candlelight. It seems like such an ethereal way to be in the moment connected to your faith. Just you, a light, and words of love.

Did you do the rituals on your own, or with others? I would love at one point with my friends to visit an empty candlelit church late at night for an hour or two of meditation and being in the presence of unbridled beauty surrounding us. The respect for our shared Catholic heritage as Hispanics would unite us to the point where, even if a couple of us are skeptical of believing in a higher power, the continuation of the ritual honors the faith our ancestors had in Christ.
 
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I would love to try prayer by candlelight. It seems like such an ethereal way to be in the moment connected to your faith. Just you, a light, and words of love.

Did you do the rituals on your own, or with others? I would love at one point with my friends to visit an empty candlelit church late at night for an hour or two of meditation and being in the presence of unbridled beauty surrounding us. The respect for our shared Catholic heritage as Hispanics would unite us to the point where, even if a couple of us are skeptical of believing in a higher power, the continuation of the ritual honors the faith our ancestors had in Christ.

Yeah, just being in a quiet candle-lit room with your eyes closed is very calming, doing nothing but waiting for the presence of a higher being. Even though I'm an atheist, I swear I felt a presence when I did it. It was a nice feeling, like your kindly old grandfather coming into the room. Probably psychological, but it felt so authentic. I really wasn't expecting anything either, since I can't make myself believe in any of this shit even if I wanted to.

I mean of course I did them alone, I'm not doing satanic rituals with my grandma lol.
But yeah you have a good point. I'm pretty sure Jesus said that church should ideally be a gathering of only close friends and family to quietly worship together. I actually really dislike modern Christian churches, the preachers are obnoxious and every single one has it's own rock band and it's just so annoying to sit through. It feels like the religion is going through a mid-life crisis. I'd probably be a lot more receptive to the faith if it was quieter and more toned down. I remember one church I went to on, uh, maybe Christmas Eve? They all actually stayed quiet and everyone lit a candle and turned off the lights. That was the one time I actually felt good in church.
 
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I'm pretty sure Jesus said that church should ideally be a gathering of only close friends and family to quietly worship together. I actually really dislike modern Christian churches, the preachers are obnoxious and every single one has it's own rock band and it's just so annoying to sit through.
The effect that modernity and capitalism have had on Protestantism, particularly in the United States, is why I don't find that tradition as spiritually nourishing as Catholicism.

Even back in the 1980s, televangelists like Paul Crouch and Jim Bakker portrayed themselves as living in almost heavenly luxury which to the observant eye was entirely the result of tithes. Sociologists refer to this as "conspicuous consumption;" the incredibly blatant and culturally encouraged materialism that characterized much of that decade.

That's not to say, of course, that the Roman Catholic Church as a bureaucracy isn't highly corrupt and obscenely wealthy in it's own right. Perhaps the idea that we don't perceive the built environment of traditional cathedrals as gaudy makes it easier for Catholics to focus on God within that context. Given that in many Catholic churches the music is still simply an organ and choir, that may trigger something in believers that makes their parish feel authentic.
 
Beside all the memes, aesthetics are an important part of a culture and people. Christianity had an aesthetic of being awe inspiring and grand. No wonder it's appealing.
Cathedrals were not only about the church flexing their power but communicating the message of the religion through architecture* and art. That's an art that is lost for the beancounter focused and "we must only have buildings for a few decades" style of thinking we have now.

thats the result of iconoclast sola scriptura protestants. they reckon icons and imagery are idols and material things cant be sacred.
 
Religions with a god still need a goddess figure. There are too many parts of life that don't fit with a traditional masculine god. Fertility, nurturing, motherhood...
Back when the ancient hebrews were first starting to seperate Yahweh from the other gods in the area some even gave him a wife in the form of one of the local goddesses. Catholics even have demi or lesser gods with the saints just like hindus have earthly gods. God and Brahman are too alien so religions need some humanity or personification in their worship. Maybe by the time protestantism came around people didn't need that connection as much.
 
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Religions tend to benifit from goddess mother figure since on subconcious level absolute monotheism feels weird especially if the supreme deity is depicted as a father figure. Since Catholiscism/orthodoxy is heavily Romanized it mades sense for them to include a mother figure to sweeten the pill

Maybe by the time protestantism came around people didn't need that connection as much.

I get the impression shedding all the Roman trappings has ultimatly been an error as Protestantism has gradually become more and more smooth brained without all that greek/roman philosophy and culture
 
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Religions really need to adapt and become competitive with modern distractions, since learning has become hyper-accelerated with the advent of the internet and now it's commonplace for people to find a lifestyle choice that does not need the validation of religion

I don't think religions were ever about lifestyle validation.

Religions really need to adapt and become competitive with modern distractions
They did do this. And the result was:

I actually really dislike modern Christian churches, the preachers are obnoxious and every single one has it's own rock band
 
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