Minimum Wage

[autisticdragonkin]

Why should the minimum wage exist? It causes unemployment which harms unskilled workers. If poor people are unable to live with their current incomes then the government should implement a basic income rather than institute a minimum wage

 

[Kirby]

Why should the minimum wage exist? It causes unemployment which harms unskilled workers. If poor people are unable to live with their current incomes then the government should implement a basic income rather than institute a minimum wage

A minimum wage is needed to weigh and balance the value of jobs based on the skills required for that job.

It wouldn't work in a capitalist system because simply raising the income of lesser skilled jobs to match the current "living wage" would ultimately just cause inflation and lower the value of the dollar, which would inadvertently then just make the living wage even higher. This problem would then eventually effect a constantly rising proportion of people who earn more than the "living wage" by lowering the value of their earnings, which then causes the "living wage" to increase again. Theoretically this would create a scenario where a large chunk of the population would be poor.

 

[AN/ALR56]

This would cause massive unemployment for workers because the ilegal immigrants will accept any wage to survive,thus creating a massive shitstorm because the workers will be replaced by masses of people who dont care about being explored.

 

[autisticdragonkin]

A minimum wage is needed to weigh and balance the value of jobs based on the skills required for that job.

The equilibrium price of unskilled labor can do that better

It wouldn't work in a capitalist system because simply raising the income of lesser skilled jobs to match the current "living wage" would ultimately just cause inflation and lower the value of the dollar, which would inadvertently then just make the living wage even higher. This problem would then eventually effect a constantly rising proportion of people who earn more than the "living wage" by lowering the value of their earnings, which then causes the "living wage" to increase again. Theoretically this would create a scenario where a large chunk of the population would be poor.

Taxing the rich and then transferring the money to the poor wouldn't lead to inflation because it wouldn't increase money circulation rate nor would it increase money supply.

This would cause massive unemployment for workers because the ilegal immigrants will accept any wage to survive,thus creating a massive shitstorm because the workers will be replaced by masses of people who dont care about being explored.

How would this cause unemployment? Illegal immigrants would not accept sub market prices for their labor.

 

[AnOminous]

How would this cause unemployment? Illegal immigrants would not accept sub market prices for their labor.

Illegals will take whatever you give them and shut the fuck up.

Or be beaten, deported, and whatever else the criminal willing to hire illegals will do to them.

 

[Adamska]

People could just move their company to China, Vietnam or another country due to lower wages as another method to get out of paying for labor as well.

I personally like the idea of a minimum wage that's tied to the rate of inflation or deflation rather than random leaps and jumps whenever the idea is fronted myself. That way the wages consistently match the dollar without artificially inflating it by being driven upward.

 

[AN/ALR56]

Illegals will take whatever you give them and shut the fuck up.

Or be beaten, deported, and whatever else the criminal willing to hire illegals will do to them.

This is the most common form of slavery here,they just place massive debts in the illiterate worker and keeps him working for free to pay the debt,if he complains he is just threatened with deportation or violence.
This commonly used by construction companies in government contracts, but when they are discovered by the feds,strangely nothing happens but a small fine...

 

[Dudeofteenage]

Why should the minimum wage exist? It causes unemployment

Most studies have shown it doesn't.

 

[Strelok]

The equilibrium price of unskilled labor can do that better

All that does is result in a race to the bottom by workers willing to work for less and less while living in ramshackle tin huts and shitting in the streets, something that was endemic in the days when we used to think shooting unionized strikers was a fine and dandy thing to do.

It's the same reason we regulated the financial system, and passed anti-trust laws, because when left to their own devices, large businesses will do everything in their power to shit on both workers and consumers rights if it's in their self interest to do so. It's tragedy of the commons on an industrial scale.

 

[autisticdragonkin]

Illegals will take whatever you give them and shut the fuck up.

Or be beaten, deported, and whatever else the criminal willing to hire illegals will do to them.

There still is an illegal immigrant equilibrium wage even if a low one. No illegal immigrant will willingly work for free (slavery is nothing to do with equilibrium wage and a separate issue)

Most studies have shown it doesn't.

High minimum wages, however, particularly in rigid labour markets, do appear to hit employment. France has the rich world’s highest wage floor, at more than 60% of the median for adults and a far bigger fraction of the typical wage for the young. This helps explain why France also has shockingly high rates of youth unemployment: 26% for 15- to 24-year-olds.

A basic income would help mitigate the costs of finding a new job

 

[Sperglord Dante]

Guatemala's minimum wage is peanuts, most of the workforce in is in the informal market and even 'legit' businesses often pay less than minimun wage to laborers.

And yet our NEET problems are about as bad if not worse than France's!

I do like the idea of universal income but that's not gonna get widespread any time soon.

 

[Holdek]

A basic income would help mitigate the costs of finding a new job

The very article you quoted has the subheading: "Moderate minimum wages do more good than harm."

 

[Pickle Inspector]

Taxing the rich and then transferring the money to the poor wouldn't lead to inflation because it wouldn't increase money circulation rate nor would it increase money supply.

The rich have lots of resources to avoid taxes though plus there is the argument to keep taxes down in fear they'll move somewhere with lower taxes (Tax exiles).

Also there is the problem of in work poverty where the government basically has to top up an employees low wage.

 

[Kenneth Erwin Engelhardt]

A lot of undocumented immigrants that work aren't "employees". They are "independent contractors" paid under the table.

 

[AnOminous]

A lot of undocumented immigrants that work aren't "employees". They are "independent contractors" paid under the table.

The employer/employee relationship is defined by how the employer controls the actions of the employee. Independent contractors are generally in charge of how they carry out their duties, otherwise they are not independent contractors.

If the employee caused damages as a result of their actions directed by the employer, the employer would be held civilly liable.

Both kinds of employment would be illegal, but if the undocumented person was truly an independent contractor, the person paying them would probably not be required to check their documents and do what an employer does.

An employer, however, would not cease being an employer with the legal obligation to do this (and to pay minimum wage) simply by calling the employee a contractor falsely.

 

[Kenneth Erwin Engelhardt]

"An employer, however, would not cease being an employer with the legal obligation to do this (and to pay minimum wage) simply by calling the employee a contractor falsely."
In theory you're correct, in practice I'm sure this goes on a lot more than people realize. It's the underground economy and it probably accounts for a good portion of the jobs that undocumented people get.

 

[Doc Cassidy]

Honestly, the only reason a person should make minimum wage is because they're a teenager, in college, or a dumbass.

If you decide to work for a living there are plenty of factory and oil jobs available, not to mention the countless jobs if you spend 6 months to a year in trade school.

 

[Dudeofteenage]

Honestly, the only reason a person should make minimum wage is because they're a teenager, in college, or a dumbass.

If you decide to work for a living there are plenty of factory and oil jobs available, not to mention the countless jobs if you spend 6 months to a year in trade school.

The work we do is a product of a lot of factors, and our own personal motivation/education/general worth as a human being is only one of them. Jobs disappear due to macro-economic factors that are totally outside the control of any individual worker.

It really saddens me that this neo-moralism that sees a person's employment circumstances as a reflection of their individual moral fibre is so widely accepted, particularly among people who wouldn't regard themselves as moralists in any other sense.

 

[JU 199]

It really saddens me that this neo-moralism that sees a person's employment circumstances as a reflection of their individual moral fibre

It's usually about kicking down and easy answers to complicated problems

"That person is on minimum wage? Must be lazy, so it's his/her fault"

The accuser gets to feel better about themselves and can ignore larger economic issues. It's a win-win.

 

[The Lizard Queen]

Bit of a rant in the spoiler button. Reader beware.

Spoiler

Raising the minimum wage at all for any reason is a terrible idea.

If you were to raise it up to 15 dollars an hour, what you would really
be doing is lessening the value of the dollar as a whole. What you
would end up with is creating a system where $15 now has the
purchasing power that $7.25 had before the raise.
The money would not retain its value, because the value of money is
not really based off of gold or an arbitrary number, it is based off
of the time, resources, and effort people spend to earn it.
Time is quite literally = money.

I will use gold as an example though. Gold is expensive because it is
rare. Rareness means that it takes a significant investment of time
and resources to mine it, you can't just find it laying around on
every street corner. If you were able to create gold and give a huge
lump of it to every single person in the country, gold would be worth
much less because it would no longer be rare.

Increasing the amount of paper money in the general population would have the
same effect. Money has value because not everyone has a lot of it, and
it costs time and resources to earn, but it has no more value than
what people ascribe to it. if $15 required the same amount of time and
resources that $7.25 did before, than $15 would become the new $7.25.

If you raised the minimum wage, in the short term the people who live
on those wages might have an easier living for a few months, but
eventually the system would balance out, and they would be asking for
$20 an hour for living because they can't survive on $15.

Also, by giving everyone more money, you actually hurt more people.
When the min wage goes up to 15 an hour, the guy who currently makes
16 an hour is not likely going to get a raise to compensate right off
the bat. Prices everywhere will go up because it costs more to hire
and train people, and Mr. $16 an hour will find he has a much higher
cost of living than he did before. People in his income bracket and
the middle class will suddenly find themselves worse off than before,
at least until the system evens out and $15 has the purchasing power
that $7.25 did before, and the guy who made $16 is now making $27, but
living the same as he did before the switch because now he is paying
$2.50 for a taco that used to cost $1.

In other words, raising the minimum wage is purely cosmetic. It hurts
as many as it helps in the short term, and does NOTHING in the long
term.

TLDR version:
The value of currency is based on goods produced and the effort and resources required to produce them (This is why Bitcoin can be a realistic currency, because it requires resources (energy and video cards) and labor (time) to produce, which creates its value). Changing the numbers on a paycheck does not actually change the amount of resources spent to produce those numbers, so after a while the currency will normalize so that a $15 min wage would have the same buying power that a $7.25 min wage has now.

But, talking about minimum wage changes is pointless to begin with. You can't fix the nature of humanity. Someone is always gonna be on top, someone is always gonn' get stepped on. Plus, there will always be lazy, stupid, and uneducated people living in a pile at the bottom of the ladder, and smart, lucky, and talented people at the top. Changing that would not only be impossible, but would likely stagnate society and impede progression.

But, the wonderful thing about the western world is we have a thriving middle class. The best we can hope for is to find ways to increase the middle class without trying to eliminate the lower classes, because eliminating them by wealth redistribution would just turn the middle class into the lower class, and make the already overbearing class problems worse.