Programming thread

[Null]

Laravel is fine and used as the backend for lots of apps. The main change over the last few years is that the frontend is usually decoupled from it and has some kind of JS framework executing in the browser making requests to an API running Laravel (or some other framework).

Yeah but that's fucking gay. I've worked with Node and I fucking hate it. Trying to set up Elixir and laravel echo is GAY NIGGER AIDS. I want something that actually just works. Laravel Echo crashing all the fucking time was the main reason sockets sucked on 9.

 

[byuu]

What does that mean? GoLang is adopted by Google, Rocket/Ruby is adopted by Mozilla + all trannies, and PHP was abandoned by its only major sponsor (Facebook, which inhoused HHVM)

You're mixing up lots of different things. Go has nothing to do with Rust.
Rocket is just written in Rust, not a Mozilla project (which is completely different from Ruby and has nothing directly to do with web applications) and is just a small project used and backed by no one.
I don't know why you'd want to use Rust for your web application - is CPU time a big problem for you?

 

[Null]

You're mixing up lots of different things. Go has nothing to do with Rust.

I am mixing up nothing homie. Try reading. I am saying that PHP has no sponsorship.
Rocket is a mozilla project.

 

[byuu]

Rocket is a mozilla project.

I can find nothing about Rocket being a Mozilla project.
There is "Firefox Rocket" which is just a firefox version. And they host a channel on Mozilla's Matrix server which doesn't mean anything.

 

[Tookie]

Yeah but that's fucking gay. I've worked with Node and I fucking hate it. Trying to set up Elixir and laravel echo is GAY NIGGER AIDS. I want something that actually just works. Laravel Echo crashing all the fucking time was the main reason sockets sucked on 9.

Sadly, Node has it's dick stuck into almost anything browser-facing in current year.

 

[Least Concern]

After arguing in the matrix all day I'm looking at Rocket. I have a sense of impending doom with XenForo dropping our license and then I'll have to find some sort of solution for the forum moving forward. I could easily approach a forum with PHP8/Laravel but nobody seems to use PHP anymore and I get bullied for it. It's also just not very "performant", I guess. I wouldn't know since I don't have much experience with anything else.

Person who writes PHP for a living here. The argument that "PHP is dying" is one I hear from one of my clients who pays me to write PHP all day, and even more ironically, his proposed replacement would be done in Python, which is even older than PHP.

PHP is still used at Wikipedia and every site on the web that runs WordPress. It's not going anywhere in the near future and pretty much all of the hard problems have been solved with it. It doesn't have the flash and hype of newer languages, but there's no web-related problem it can't solve incredibly efficiently.

If it comes to losing the XenForo license, rather than rewriting the forums with Laravel, have you considered Vanilla? It's the closest in feature parity to Xen from what I've seen and is available with a real OSS license (though a lot of the documentation tries to push you towards the hosted product).

 

[:gold:]

Person who writes PHP for a living here. The argument that "PHP is dying" is one I hear from one of my clients who pays me to write PHP all day, and even more ironically, his proposed replacement would be done in Python, which is even older than PHP.

PHP is still used at Wikipedia and every site on the web that runs WordPress. It's not going anywhere in the near future and pretty much all of the hard problems have been solved with it. It doesn't have the flash and hype of newer languages, but there's no web-related problem it can't solve incredibly efficiently.

If it comes to losing the XenForo license, rather than rewriting the forums with Laravel, have you considered Vanilla? It's the closest in feature parity to Xen from what I've seen and is available with a real OSS license (though a lot of the documentation tries to push you towards the hosted product).

As a PHP pro, what are your thought on Hack, Facebook‘s PHP clone?

 

[Null]

As a PHP pro, what are your thought on Hack, Facebook‘s PHP clone?

Their decision to stop parity with PHP was retarded. The KF ran on HHVM for a brief period of time before the launch of PHP7, at which point the PHP team shoved its foot into Faceberg's hostile takeover attempt and after that they just gave up to make their own thing.

Person who writes PHP for a living here. The argument that "PHP is dying" is one I hear from one of my clients who pays me to write PHP all day, and even more ironically, his proposed replacement would be done in Python, which is even older than PHP.

PHP is still used at Wikipedia and every site on the web that runs WordPress. It's not going anywhere in the near future and pretty much all of the hard problems have been solved with it. It doesn't have the flash and hype of newer languages, but there's no web-related problem it can't solve incredibly efficiently.

If it comes to losing the XenForo license, rather than rewriting the forums with Laravel, have you considered Vanilla? It's the closest in feature parity to Xen from what I've seen and is available with a real OSS license (though a lot of the documentation tries to push you towards the hosted product).

Web Frameworks Benchmark

Web Frameworks Benchmark. There are many frameworks, each one comes with its own advantages and drawbacks. The purpose of this project is to identify them and attempt to measure their differences (performance is only one metric).

web-frameworks-benchmark.netlify.app

What's your opinion of the Workerman things? They seem to be using a daemonized version of PHP which I've not seen before. It's chinkware, seems heavily inspired by Laravel, and not much of the docu is in English (no trannies).

 

[Shoggoth]

After arguing in the matrix all day I'm looking at Rocket. I have a sense of impending doom with XenForo dropping our license and then I'll have to find some sort of solution for the forum moving forward. I could easily approach a forum with PHP8/Laravel but nobody seems to use PHP anymore and I get bullied for it. It's also just not very "performant", I guess. I wouldn't know since I don't have much experience with anything else.

Have you looked at Discourse? I don't know how it will handle the traffic load, but it's FOSS

 

[Least Concern]

As a PHP pro, what are your thought on Hack, Facebook‘s PHP clone?

I haven't really paid any attention to it. I don't really understand why every tech company has to invent their own Yet Another Programming Language nowadays (Google and Go, Mozilla and Rust, Apple and Swift - at least each of those has seen some spread outside of their parent companies, unlike Hack). I don't know, maybe Hack is the greatest thing in the world, but I'm already pretty invested in the PHP ecosystem and not in a great hurry to re-learn something new.

What's your opinion of the Workerman things?

I've actually never heard of it before today. It looks cool if something really low-level is necessary, but I gladly work in much higher-level frameworks where it's just a given that efficiency will lose out to flexibility sometimes. I can understand that your priorities are quite a bit different from my clients', but I still would not be looking forward to writing a full-featured forum system starting with basically a framework for serving TCP responses. I'd start with the forum system and try to get it running as efficiently as I need it to; it seems like much more productive work. But that's just my perspective.

At any rate, I don't take framework benchmark numbers very seriously because a framework which serves an e-commerce site very efficiently will look very different from a framework which serves websocket connections for a chat app very efficiently, and who knows what numbers either will score in serving the kinds of "hello world" responses used in benchmarks like these.

EDIT:

Have you looked at Discourse? I don't know how it will handle the traffic load, but it's FOSS

Discourse's UI is very different from a traditional forum system's like XenForo, and it's pretty AJAX-heavy. I much prefer the old-fashioned "page full of posts" design of Xen.

 

[Null]

@Least Concern, did Laravel ever fix its PgSQL implementation? I made a bug report about how its select unique implementation did not fucking work and they rejected my PR for it. I've looked and it feels like nobody there gives a fuck about PgSQL and they just lie about being db agnostic.

 

[GreeneCoDeputy]

Yeah but that's fucking gay. I've worked with Node and I fucking hate it. Trying to set up Elixir and laravel echo is GAY NIGGER AIDS. I want something that actually just works. Laravel Echo crashing all the fucking time was the main reason sockets sucked on 9.

I would not recommend a Node.js backend in Current Year. It's dying a slow, miserable death in enterprise settings because people are starting to catch on that a single thread of control waiting on a million "async" callbacks is a nightmare. We probably use npm for some package management for our UIs since it's pretty unavoidable with a lot of JavaScript frameworks but we've purged any NodeJS services from our ecosystem.

I don't know what's out there in terms of .NET forum solutions but .NET Core can run on a pure Linux backend. We run millions of transactions a day against a .NET Core 5 web API running on a handful of Docker containers. Our data sources are mainly contained in Redis, Postgres, and a decent managed database solution. The DB solution is by far the most costly component for us but we have extremely strict SLA requirements and it's the only one that can keep up with our demand.

We also run a lot of Python for our data science and machine learning components as well as our CI/CD automation. We've experimented with exposing a hybrid Python/compiled Cython service to our transaction processing pipeline but couldn't quite nail down the performance that we need. Your mileage may vary.

PHP is probably a less popular choice these days but so is FORTRAN and a good portion of SciPy/NumPy modules are just wrappers around compiled FORTRAN functions.

The cool kids may bully you but if you can see a PHP framework meeting the needs of the forum a year from now or two years from now, and you're productive and effective working with it, there may not be much value to switching to another technology stack.

On the other hand, if PHP frameworks aren't cutting it in terms of performance, licensing, support, etc. then it might be better to switch to something more appropriate sooner rather than later.

 

[Null]

Workerman, chinkware I've never heard of before (uses templating).
# php start.php start -d
Lifting the server siege...
Transactions: 138886 hits

Cargo basic template example
# cargo run -q
Lifting the server siege...
Transactions: 22222 hits

(both are multithreaded)

Laravel I'd have to set up a full php-fpm/nginx test for because serve cannot thread and it's not fair to try and compare the two.

I'd like to just stick with what I know but I want native websocket support and I want pgsql support and I want multithreading

 

[Vecr]

You need to do `cargo run --release`, otherwise there's no optimization going on.

 

[Least Concern]

@Least Concern, did Laravel ever fix its PgSQL implementation? I made a bug report about how its select unique implementation did not fucking work and they rejected my PR for it. I've looked and it feels like nobody there gives a fuck about PgSQL and they just lie about being db agnostic.

No idea, but that's pretty crappy. If they really want to claim DB agnosticism, they should have their tests test against all of the DBs they claim to support.

 

[Considered HARMful]

Have you looked at Discourse? I don't know how it will handle the traffic load, but it's FOSS

Discourse is bad software, irritating as fuck to use and runs like shit. Speaking from long experience of using TDWTF forums back when they were a testbed for Jeff Twatwood's crappy designs.

That was ${SOME} years ago, but it was so bonkers and with Jeff's approach to development I can't bring myself to believe the situation could evolve to be any better. I cringe every time I stumble upon a DiscoHorse instance and their horrible InfiniScrolling™ garbage jellypotato interface.

 

[Null]

Frustrated to see that Laravel still has no native PHP websocket support. The chinkware has that but it's relatively new and not very featureful and I'm hesitant to start any large project based on it. There's still a lot I like about Laravel and I can imagine how I'd do things with it in my head but it's so obviously just slower than everything else on the market.

 

[Shoggoth]

Discourse is bad software, irritating as fuck to use and runs like shit. Speaking from long experience of using TDWTF forums back when they were a testbed for Jeff Twatwood's crappy designs.

That was ${SOME} years ago, but it was so bonkers and with Jeff's approach to development I can't bring myself to believe the situation could evolve to be any better. I cringe every time I stumble upon a DiscoHorse instance and their horrible InfiniScrolling™ garbage jellypotato interface.

I have no experience with admining it or using it in a large scale. I just know it's free (as in freedom) and plenty of orgs and communities set it up. Convenient "worse is better"?

 

[glow]

XenForo dropping the KF license is certainly an interesting idea in terms of censorship. I think it would be silly given they'd be turning down money and scaring off other current and future customers (KF is not the only place to commit thought crimes but it is the best).

I don't know how this works but the database itself was generated from SQL code they wrote and licensed to you, so can you actually use the same DB design or would you need to come up with your own and port the data?

in b4 'use mongo' lol

 

[Bill The Fucker]

Node is fine and ES6 made JS bearable. Fight me.