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[AnOminous]

I've read the whole trilogy eleven times or so. They're black, they have a cult centered around Sauron... How are they not Sauron-worshipping niggers ?

Didn't they ride elephants and shit? I thought they were more like Carthaginians. Only Kangs think Carthaginians were niggers.

 

[Big Brown Schlub]

Didn't they ride elephants and shit? I thought they were more like Carthaginians. Only Kangs think Carthaginians were niggers.

Haradrim were based on East Africans.

 

[AnOminous]

Haradrim were based on East Africans.

East Africans didn't ride elephants so far as I know. It still goes to the pure stupidity of trying to directly assign real world racial characteristics to everything in Tolkien since even when he did loosely base things on some specific race he never strictly based it on them. For instance, he somewhat openly based dwarves on Jews. However, along with a smattering of slightly Jewish stereotypes, they also have a lot of other characteristics associated with other stereotypes.

It just seems really dumb to try to fish out some kind of cryptic hidden racism in absolutely everything. Is there some shortage? People can't go pick on H.P. Lovecraft for his absolutely open racism? Or better yet, just cope with the fact some people are racists and maybe, I dunno, try to convince them otherwise or ignore them and move on?

 

[Big Brown Schlub]

East Africans didn't ride elephants so far as I know. It still goes to the pure stupidity of trying to directly assign real world racial characteristics to everything in Tolkien since even when he did loosely base things on some specific race he never strictly based it on them. For instance, he somewhat openly based dwarves on Jews. However, along with a smattering of slightly Jewish stereotypes, they also have a lot of other characteristics associated with other stereotypes.

It just seems really dumb to try to fish out some kind of cryptic hidden racism in absolutely everything. Is there some shortage? People can't go pick on H.P. Lovecraft for his absolutely open racism? Or better yet, just cope with the fact some people are racists and maybe, I dunno, try to convince them otherwise or ignore them and move on?

Well yeah, that's because Tolkien mostly based cultures he made up in Middle-Earth on real life languages rather than any other cultural characteristic. Linguistics was his area of expertise and he was really passionate about how language worked in all its faucets, so it's no wonder that he created the languages first and then created the other cultural characteristics for the various races and nations in Middle-Earth. It's why the languages have clear real life inspirations, while everything else is based on more broad geographical areas or it was just shit he made up to make them distinct.

 

[KimCoppolaAficionado]

I've read the whole trilogy eleven times or so. They're black, they have a cult centered around Sauron... How are they not Sauron-worshipping niggers ?

Yeah, those Haradrim did. Tolkien in his secondary material made it clear that the Haradrim were the same as other men, and had been deceived and corrupted by Sauron in the way he had corrupted the Numenoreans and sowed poison among the Gondorians and the Riders of Rohan.
Not exactly the position a based and redpilled race realist would take.

 

[AnOminous]

The dwarves were based Jews, the elves were fucking faggots, prove me wrong.

 

[Zarkov]

Yeah, those Haradrim did. Tolkien in his secondary material made it clear that the Haradrim were the same as other men, and had been deceived and corrupted by Sauron in the way he had corrupted the Numenoreans and sowed poison among the Gondorians and the Riders of Rohan.
Not exactly the position a based and redpilled race realist would take.

You realize all I said was that the faggots who want to ban orcs from their RPGs because muh systemic racism probably hate the Sauron-worshipping niggers right ?

You're the one who came up with that based and redpilled shit.

 

[Capsaicin Addict]

The dwarves were based Jews, the elves were fucking faggots, prove me wrong.

You can't. I've often remarked that Sauron spent a LOT of time making sure that elves, men, and dwarves did not become best buddies because a triple alliance like that would have wrecked his shit.

How tough are dwarves? Like the Nine Rings of Power that went to men, the Seven Rings of Power were meant to bring the dwarves under Sauron's thumb, presumably turning them into Ringwraiths like the holders of the Nine.

And it didn't fucking work. Oh, it made the wielders pissy and greedy, but Sauron's influence was limited at best and they sure weren't turning into dwarf-wraiths. Hence why Sauron finally gave up and started either making sure the dwarven Rings were reclaimed by him, or destroyed (three, if I recall correctly, got melted by dragons). Because the last thing Sauron needed was for dwarves to realize King Urist had not been himself ever since he received the Ring of Power from his dad, and stage an intervention. And then to take said Ring, and fucking call in some of the Wise (i.e., wizards, elves, etc) for a discussion.

An alternate timeline where Elrond reverse engineers a dwarven Ring of Power and comes up with a Ringwraith-bitchslapping weapon would've been very amusing.

 

[Wallace]

An alternate timeline where Elrond reverse engineers a dwarven Ring of Power and comes up with a Ringwraith-bitchslapping weapon would've been very amusing.

To be fair, the failure of the dwarves to be wholly corrupted by the Seven is more attributed to the natural hardiness of the dwarves rather than a defect in the rings themselves, especially since they were given to dwarf-kings who exemplified this trait. Though the Seven certainly did amplify the dwarves' sense of greed which benefitted Sauron in the long-term. Interestingly, an envoy from Sauron tried to offer Dain of the Lonely Mountain the three dwarven rings he had recovered, along with all of Moria, in exchange for information regarding Bilbo which would lead to the location of the One Ring.

The destruction of some of the Seven by dragons was also more of a natural consequence, as a long-lived and greedy dwarf king would naturally accrue enough of a hoard of wealth to attract the attention of dragons.

 

[robobobo]

To be fair, the failure of the dwarves to be wholly corrupted by the Seven is more attributed to the natural hardiness of the dwarves rather than a defect in the rings themselves, especially since they were given to dwarf-kings who exemplified this trait. Though the Seven certainly did amplify the dwarves' sense of greed which benefitted Sauron in the long-term. Interestingly, an envoy from Sauron tried to offer Dain of the Lonely Mountain the three dwarven rings he had recovered, along with all of Moria, in exchange for information regarding Bilbo which would lead to the location of the One Ring.

The destruction of some of the Seven by dragons was also more of a natural consequence, as a long-lived and greedy dwarf king would naturally accrue enough of a hoard of wealth to attract the attention of dragons.

The One made all the other rings his bitches, including the Three; the only reason people were wearing them safely in the trilogy is because Sauron didn't have the One at the time. The elves were immediately aware that he'd fucked them and took off the rings to prevent him doing them dirty, but he invaded them and stole all except the Three, which he then passed around to the humans and dwarves since they were more gullible than the elves turned out to be.

In fairness to the Haradrim, who were described as swarthy with dark hair and eyes and struck me as more Mediterranean/Arab in appearance than African, I think only one or two of the nazgul were from there, while a fair number of the fallen wraith kings were the pretty poster boy Numenarians. Humanity in general was portrayed in a dim light by Tolkien, the Haradrim weren't at all unique in siding with Sauron.

 

[Screw Danlon]

People can't go pick on H.P. Lovecraft for his absolutely open racism?

Instead, they just bury his racist aspects the same way they pervert most of what his stories were actually about.

I really hate so much of the modern Lovecraftian renaissance. People chasing shoggoths with shotguns is ridiculous.

 

[AnOminous]

Instead, they just bury his racist aspects the same way they pervert most of what his stories were actually about.

I really hate so much of the modern Lovecraftian renaissance. People chasing shoggoths with shotguns is ridiculous.

It can be fun though. If you ever played classic Call of Cthulhu, it could get seriously depressing, literally just a world that is completely hopeless and you're utterly doomed no matter what you do. And that's just the start.

So the occasional bout of gangsters with tommy guns versus shoggoths could be kind of fun.

 

[Flexo]

Instead, they just bury his racist aspects the same way they pervert most of what his stories were actually about.

I really hate so much of the modern Lovecraftian renaissance. People chasing shoggoths with shotguns is ridiculous.

Hey! Old Man Henderson is a legend!

 

[KimCoppolaAficionado]

Instead, they just bury his racist aspects the same way they pervert most of what his stories were actually about.

I really hate so much of the modern Lovecraftian renaissance. People chasing shoggoths with shotguns is ridiculous.

As a game it's more fun than "Oh no a fish nigger I'm going maaaadddd!"
If Cthulhu can be persuaded to fuck off back to eternal slumber by ramming a steamship into its head, there shouldn't be bitching about how everything in Lovecraft's canon should be an invincible enemy that can smush players like bugs.
More seriously, I feel that Delta Green strikes a nice balance between creating a horrific and dark tone in line with the original works while still being actually fun to play.

 

[Mola Ram]

As a game it's more fun than "Oh no a fish nigger I'm going maaaadddd!"
If Cthulhu can be persuaded to fuck off back to eternal slumber by ramming a steamship into its head, there shouldn't be bitching about how everything in Lovecraft's canon should be an invincible enemy that can smush players like bugs.
More seriously, I feel that Delta Green strikes a nice balance between creating a horrific and dark tone in line with the original works while still being actually fun to play.

Back when d20 Modern was a thing, I always thought that ruleset would have worked better for a fun, action-y CoC game than the bizarre hybrid they came up with for the long out of print and unlamented CoC d20 book.

On the other hand, "bizarre hybrid" IS thematically appropriate.

 

[AnOminous]

As a game it's more fun than "Oh no a fish nigger I'm going maaaadddd!"
If Cthulhu can be persuaded to fuck off back to eternal slumber by ramming a steamship into its head, there shouldn't be bitching about how everything in Lovecraft's canon should be an invincible enemy that can smush players like bugs.
More seriously, I feel that Delta Green strikes a nice balance between creating a horrific and dark tone in line with the original works while still being actually fun to play.

The pathos of Lovecraftian games like classic CoC is partly that all your characters are completely hopeless and pathetic against the enemies you face. Even the weakest of them can easily wreck an entire party. It's the absolute opposite of stuff like D&D where you just hack and slash your way to victory against an endless series of bop clowns.

Your characters can actually gain power, but at the cost of sanity. Great, read some of those books you found in the cultists' lair. You've actually obtained some magic, and lost a bit of your mind in the process.

Eventually, your most powerful characters lose their minds completely, and if you're lucky, they just kill themselves, but if you aren't, your favorite character is now a fanatical Elder Gods zealot now mindlessly attacking you with every bit of elder knowledge he has.

CoC was such a great game. The sheer sadism it allowed and even encouraged the GM to have was amazing, only Paranoia was better.

 

[anti SJW]

Hey! Old Man Henderson is a legend!

Where are my wee men at?

 

[Capsaicin Addict]

I suspect the reason that Lovecraft doesn't get more bile tossed at him is because there's some pretty convincing arguments that he had serious mental issues. I mean, who the fuck moves to New York around the time he lived when you have crippling agoraphobia and xenophobia?

 

[AnOminous]

I suspect the reason that Lovecraft doesn't get more bile tossed at him is because there's some pretty convincing arguments that he had serious mental issues. I mean, who the fuck moves to New York around the time he lived when you have crippling agoraphobia and xenophobia?

Lovecraft obviously had serious issues. But he also has serious fans way more crazy than he was who would fuck your shit up if you seriously tried to go after him, even with the "On the Creation of Niggers" poem.

Go after Lovecraft and I'm going to go after you motherfucker, and I'm crazier than he was.

 

[Mola Ram]

I suspect the reason that Lovecraft doesn't get more bile tossed at him is because there's some pretty convincing arguments that he had serious mental issues. I mean, who the fuck moves to New York around the time he lived when you have crippling agoraphobia and xenophobia?

That's what should happen, but doesn't. First you got the literary graverobbers who want to use Lovecraft shit in their stuff (most frequently RPGs, but you see occasional examples from actual writers) but know they have to disavow his racism, and usually do so in the most self-righteous, self-congratulatory ways imaginable ... because, you know, it's so difficult and laudatory to have more enlightened views on race than a guy who described a black boxer literally as a quadrupedal ape. I saw one such game designer crowing about how since it's in the public domain, HPL's estate doesn't make a dime off it! Yeah, that'd be more impressive if Lovecraft hadn't deliberately stowed the Mythos in the public domain to make it more believable and so writers like you could profit off it themselves.

But now you have more serious chin-scratching going on, such as remaking the World Fantasy Award so it's not a Lovecraft statue anymore, and most recently the Providence Athaeneum -- one of Lovecraft's inspirations and writing haunts -- muttering that they might stick his bust in storage, after they already scrubbed him from their website.

Still, the Cthulhu Mythos has such cultural penetration, especially among the sort of limpwristed nancies who fret about Lovecraft being a kook on race (for reasons that elude me), he's never going to go away completely. You're just going to see more and more ritualized condemnations of his views while still trying to scrape money off his product.