Skyrim Together - A tale of code stealing, bragging rights, illegal MMO emulations, toxicity and deceit on a Skyrim multiplayer mod

[Sparky Lurker]

I think all the drama surrounding this mod, might be good enough to make a solo thread itself, a few weeks ago claims started popping up about the multiplayer mod Skyrim Together using SKSE while cashing in on it:

https://www.reddit.com/r/skyrimmods/comments/av4f5f/skyrim_together_is_stealing_skse_source_code/ (http://archive.li/jx8AH)

I guess it's time for more drama. Sorry, I hate having to do stuff like this.
Skyrim Together is stealing SKSE code, uncredited, without permission, with an explicit term in the license restricting one of the authors from having anything to do with the code, who denies using any of it (in case this gets deleted)? The proof is pretty clear when you look at the loader and dll in a disassembler. They're using a hacked-up version of 1.7.3 classic presumably with some preprocessor macros to switch structure types around as needed between the x64 and x86 versions.
Starting with the loader, it's basically skse_loader with all of the options filed off and the error messages changed. In main, they check the error code of CreateProcessA against ERROR_ELEVATION_REQUIRED, then have a slightly reworded error messagebox to handle that case. That I could see being a slightly suspicious coincidence.
Head down to the actual DLL injection code at +4B81 and follow along with skse64\skse64_loader_common\Inject.cpp's InjectDLLThread. The first function is just a SEH wrapper, calling DoInjectDLLThread to do the real work. DoInjectDLLThread looks almost exactly the same, only with the check that the DLL exists removed. The timeout for WaitForSingleObject is exactly the same, even being switched between INFINITE, 60 seconds, and not being called at all via two bool arguments with the same indices. That's a pretty clear copy.
Moving on to the dll, tons of file paths are available in the strings:
Common is of course MIT-licensed and doesn't require attributation (but is always appreciated), but the main SKSE source isn't. It's technically always been under common copyright law, but after yamashi's terrible behavior towards the script extender team (best left to another post if you really care) he earned a special callout in the license:

Due to continued intentional copyright infringement and total disrespect for modder etiquette, the Skyrim Online team is explicitly disallowed from using any of these files for any purpose.

Yes, it was that bad.
Looking throughout the DLL, there's tons of code easily identifiable as copied unchanged from SKSE just from the strings and error messages. Most if not all of the new script functions are there, serialization, basically everything. RTTI data points to tons of SKSE custom classes; honestly the whole thing makes me feel sick.
If you want a great "smoking gun" of SKSE code being directly used in functions they added, look at the definition of TESNPC and compare it with the function at +2B5A00 which appears to be walking over the members of a TESNPC (among other things) to build a string. The names of the fields just happen to match up, even including the numbered "unknown" ones. That's beyond coincidence.
It would be easy to keep going and pointing out examples, but it gets technical and boring very quickly. I think these examples cover everything pretty well.
This source code theft is completely uncredited, denied by the authors, and I'm sure has been a great help in developing their mod that is currently only usable when paid. Currently I'm not sure what to do about this situation.
Note that it is normal for ordinary native code plugins to use the SKSE source code directly, and that's OK. They are supposed to have their source available, but in reality that doesn't always happen. ST is causing a problem by violating the license, not crediting, going out of their way to keep closed-source, and effectively charging for a mod. This reflects badly on us, and pushes us in to a very bad legal position with Bethesda.
I wish that one day there could be a drama-free online mod.

r/skyrimmods - Is Skyrim together in danger?

955 votes and 377 comments so far on Reddit

www.reddit.com

For those of you who don't know "Skyrim Together" is a Multiplayer Skyrim mod. It was announced a few years back to be in production and as of a month ago has entered into "Closed Beta."

Normally this would be fine, except the closed beta isn't free. You can pay for it to get access to it. It has gone through multiple patch cycles, and when asked when it will be made free to the public the developers simply state that they don't know.

Payment is as follows. You "Donate" to them on patreon to gain access to the Mod.

• 1 dollar gets you access to the mod with sub 10 tick rate servers.
• 20 dollars gets you access to the mod with 60 tick rate servers, and gives you early access to new patches/builds.

You also may not host your own servers and the creators have stated they don't plan on allowing people to do so any time in the near future.

My issue is this. They are Clearly monetizing/selling a Skyrim Mod under the guise of donations, while at the same time denying users a more enjoyable in game experience by not allowing them to host servers and hiding good servers behind a 20 dollar pay wall.

I've paid my dollar, but I'm worried that this is violating Bethesda's EULA, and that this Mod will get taken down as a result due to the greedy practices of it's creators.

I have brought this issue up in their official discord, and was told that Bethesda knew about the mod.

When I asked if Bethesda knew about their charging and monetization they stated "Bethesda has for sure caught wind of what is going on, and have clearly decided to not take action." This means they did not ask Bethesda or let them know they were going to do this.

Bethesda has sued for far less, and with Fallout 76 falling into the shitter, It's only a matter of time if they keep up with these practices.

I would hate for a mod I've waited for for years to be removed or destroyed by greed. I'm fine with donations for mod creators as well. Hell I support Beyond skyrim, but no other mod uses those "donations" as payment for access while exluding it from the general public. You donate to support not to buy.

TL;DR Skyrim Together is breaking terms of service, charging for their mod and servers.

EDIT: I GUESS SKYRIM TOGETHER REALLY WAS IN DANGER LOL

On another claim on reddit, a poster pointed out the creator behind the mod used to make illegal emulations of popular MMOS like The Old Republic, Guild Wars 2 and even ESO.

The whole project has been shrouded in some shady goings-on since its inception. I don't know the truth behind it all but I do know that those guys are making $34,000 a month on Patreon now and that is serious cash.

EDIT: Screw it, I'm copy and pasting that post and putting it here for maximum visbility.

Here's a fun fact: Yamashi, the original creator of Skyrim Online (not to be confused with Tamriel Online or Skyrim Together) and lead developer of Skyrim Together, was busted for trying to make an ESO emulator during the early betas. The original Skyrim Online site no longer exists, but somebody did post the news update about it over on Steam before it was removed (and considering I was one of the ten people who actively followed Skyrim Together, can confirm this was legitimate): https://steamcommunity.com/app/72850/discussions/0/357285398697100567

Hey guys! With what's been happening lately (or rather, what hasn't been happening) I thought I'd give you all a status update on the mod and related projects.
A few months back, Yamashi went off to work on a TESO emulator for the closed beta, which garnered some attention - in short, Zenimax caught wind of the project and shut it down permanently. The TESO emulator isn't coming back any time soon and can be considered buried for now.
Now, in conjunction with the shutdown of the TESO emulator, I've been unable to contact Yamashi or anyone else working higher up on Skyrim Online for about two months now. I've been hoping that they would show up, but seeing as it's been a while now I thought it would be appropriate to share what I know with you.
Skyrim Online is currently in a development freeze due to Yamashi being off the radar, and we have no other developers. This means that for now, the mod is not being actively developed and new features won't show up for a while. I'm as saddened as you guys are - until I can get an update from Yamashi or Tytanis about what's going to happen, I know as much as you do.
This doesn't mean that the forums are going away, nor any of the services associated with the mod (chatting, server list, etc) - I'll still be here to help out with any issues you have. However, new features won't be coded until Yamashi returns. As for what he's up to, I'd rather not speculate. It's his private life and I don't want to be poking around in it.
For now, though, the mod can be contributed to if you're proficient in C# - the repo is available here ( https://github.com/yamashi/SkyrimOnline ) and you can freely fork it.
If you've got any questions, post them here and I'll try to answer them to the best of my abilities.
//Jargon

He also had/has a Guild Wars 2 emulator: https://devhub.io/repos/yamashi-GW2Emu

And The Old Republic: https://github.com/trespa/SwTor-1.3

As you might expect, emulators for MMOs are very... not legal. Sometimes developers let them slide, but what was particularly egregious about his ESO emulator was that he was trying to corner the market before the game was even out.

Now the story is that during his absence, he was hired by Zenimax to work on ESO legitimately. This is definitely possibly true, but there's been a fair bit of shady stuff about it that leaves me somewhat skeptical (though it should be noted that there is a Max Griot credited for ESO, which is Yamashi's new handle).

When he finally came back, he explained that he was no longer permitted to work on the project because of the ESO shenanigans. Whether or not this is due to Zenimax threatening legal action and banning him from modifying their products, or because he was legitimately hired by Bethesda was never determined:

You guys probably understand the TESO shutdown was caused by something, so yeah I have been really busy dealing with all of this.
Regarding Skyrim Online, I might not be authorized to work on game projects anymore but I don't know if mods are part of this, if so I will try to find someone to take on after me, if not I might be able to access some data that will allow me to pick up the dev and get somewhere a lot faster.

He also told me that if Zenimax got wind of the work on the project, they could shut it down. This is unusual, because Bethesda has always historically allowed developer mods with no problems. There was also something about him living in France, despite there being no French studios listed as credits for ESO. Short of him using company-owned code for Skyrim Together (which would be an enormous breach of faith), I don't see how Zenimax could ban him from working on a third party modification for a Bethesda game in his spare time.

There are also numerous accusations against him/other members of the Skyrim Together team for stealing the work of former contributors (you can read some in that Steam thread I linked), though obviously that's a he-said-she-said and we'd probably never know for sure.

He also accused Seigfre of Tamriel Online fame of stealing his code, despite Skyrim Online being open source, and he really stirred up a lot of drama with those accusations back when Seigfre was still active.

And of course, there were the endless accusations that they were intentionally withholding the project/information about the project to farm more Patreon money, but I don't think there's any evidence to support it.

Am I saying that Yamashi is definitely lying about being a Bethesda employee or something, and that there's something fishy going on? No, I have no idea if any of it is true or not. But there are some serious red flags that lead me to be seriously skeptical at the very least. The saving grace is that there's a lot more talent on Skyrim Together than there used to be, so I can only hope that the new blood is comprised of honest folks and that all of this is little more than hearsay.

All I know is that if/when it comes time to actually play Skyrim Together, I'm going in with burner account information because something just doesn't smell right to me.

This was late february, as of April the mod creator made a new claim saying that he owes people nothing while cashing in 18K dollars on his patreon:

Fan-funded Skyrim multiplayer mod may never release as devs “don’t owe the community anything”

The mod's development team - which is currently earning $18k per month from donations - blames community toxicity for delays

www.pcgamesn.com

Fan-funded Skyrim multiplayer mod may never release as devs “don’t owe the community anything”

A developer of a popular Skyrim multiplayer mod says that the team “doesn’t owe the community anything.” Maxgriot, one of the mod team behind Skyrim Together, posted a comment on Reddit earlier this month suggesting that the developers have considered giving up on the project due to the reaction from players.
Maxgriot’s comments were made in response to a post on the mod’s subreddit. The content of the post – titled “Is something going to happen?” – has now been deleted, but the development team seems to have been upset by its overall message. Maxgriot responded telling the original poster that “we don’t owe the community anything,” and that updates are posted only “if we feel like spending time doing it.”
He follows up by saying that the team is “NOT making this for the community,” and that “the community has been so toxic we even considered saying ‘fuck it’ and [giving] up, or [continuing] but never [releasing] anything to the public. We are making this for ourselves because we think it’s a very fun project to work on and we learn a ton doing this.”

“People leaving is the least of our concern as they will come back when it’s released, we aren’t trying to build a community. Please let us be and do things the way we want.”

As pointed out in the response to that comment, the community around the mod is still contributing more than $18,000 per month to the development process via Patreon – at the height of the project’s popularity, that figure rose to nearly double the current amount.
Despite huge popularity around the release of the Skyrim Together closed beta earlier this year, the project has since been marred by controversy. The beta ended abruptly when the team was accused of using code from the Skyrim Script Extender mod without permission. The team currently claims that it’s trying to remove that code – which could make up as much as 25% of the entire project – from the mod before allowing any new access to the mod.

We are probably looking into the next Hunt down Freeman levels of modding controversy here.

 

[UE 558]

Sounds like your average troon to me

 

[Devilish Tyrant]

While for the time being "technically" right, It's prettttty shitty to be making 34k+ off a mod and still sperg out over criticism/ legitimate complaints.
I wonder what kinda headspace leads to that...Guilt?

 

[2.D.]

Skid who's making a fuckton of money off of other people's work
poorly written code and attempts to pass off other peoples' work as his own
complete jackass to people who support him

Yanderedev 2: Dragonborn Boogaloo

 

[NOT Sword Fighter Super]

This is why you don't crowdfund shit like this.

Did people learn nothing from the Mighty No.9 or the Yooka-Laylee debacle?

 

[AsbestosFlaygon]

This is why you don't crowdfund shit like this.

Did people learn nothing from the Mighty No.9 or the Yooka-Laylee debacle?

At least Mighty No.9 & Yooka-Laylee are new games built from the ground up, why the fuck would anyone pay for a mod? let alone a incomplete mod. Skyrim is already broken enough as is without a user made multiplayer mod for a game that wasn't designed for it, and will probably have bugs of its own that will never be ironed out.

 

[Billy_Sama]

Skyrim and the other Bethesda games are buggy messes, who wants to pay for a mod that is a bigger mess.

 

[ducktales4gameboy]

Yanderedev 2: Dragonborn Boogaloo

Maybe in Yandev's wet dreams.



Looking forward to more drama out of this in the coming months. When free mods and money combine an autistic shitstorm is the inevitable result. It happened with HL2, TF2, and Dota 2, so Skyrim was probably inevitable.

 

[Tanner Glass]

Skyrim and the other Bethesda games are buggy messes, who wants to pay for a mod that is a bigger mess.

To be fair, Bethesda sold Fallout 76 at $60 to a large number of people, so there is a large number of people who want to pay money for hot garbage in a Bethesda engine.

 

[bool]

some things are too good to be true. a decent online bethesda game is one of them. why did anyone have faith in this?

 

[vertexwindi]

So Bethesda is OK with people bribing people for mods, but using their games' sound files in a mod? Whoa hey that's just going too far. What a bunch of cunts.

 

[Anonymus Fluhre]

Skyrim and the other Bethesda games are buggy messes, who wants to pay for a mod that is a bigger mess.

Mods have actually fixed many of the issues with their games. From the game itself to the various programs used to make their games.

So Bethesda is OK with people bribing people for mods, but using their games' sound files in a mod? Whoa hey that's just going too far. What a bunch of cunts.

Depends on the sound files. There are certain ones modders can't use in Morrowind and Oblivion which had to be outsourced to new voice actors and musicians.

Zenamax will have issue with what these modders behind Skyrim Together are doing, just give them time. They go after people who use Scrolls and Fallout in names after all, they'll go after them for this too.

 

[Cod of War]

Mods have actually fixed many of the issues with their games. From the game itself to the various programs used to make their games.


Depends on the sound files. There are certain ones modders can't use in Morrowind and Oblivion which had to be outsourced to new voice actors and musicians.

Zenamax will have issue with what these modders behind Skyrim Together are doing, just give them time. They go after people who use Scrolls and Fallout in names after all, they'll go after them for this too.

I'm assuming voices. The Road to Liberty team asked Bethesda if they could use the FO3 voices files for their Capital Wasteland mod and was told no. I think the same thing happened with Fallout 4: New Vegas.

 

[Anonymus Fluhre]

I'm assuming voices. The Road to Liberty team asked Bethesda if they could use the FO3 voices files for their Capital Wasteland mod and was told no. I think the same thing happened with Fallout 4: New Vegas.

Certain voice actors can't be used from Oblivion even if they just take the files and have you also own Oblivion. Same goes with some music files. Modders who want to remake certain games always get a list of what they can and cannot use.

 

[STN]

Wow, i really had no idea all of this happened. I was passively interested in Skyrim Together but not actively following its progress and then i just stopped hearing about it one day. Oh well.