[State enforced] Corporal punishment

[Penis Drager]

There already exists a thread on its use by parents on their kids (see: this thread), But I want to talk specifically about applying it to criminals.
It seems "barbaric" to think a judge could sentence you to X# of lashings as opposed to a jail sentence or a fine, but being sentenced to jail for an extended period of time could lose you a job and a heavy fine could financially cripple you more directly. What if you could motion to opt in to a system where you could just get the shit over with in a single day and you could work through the pain at your job and/or save yourself a few hundred bucks?
Should this be an option?
How many lashings equals how many days in jail/how many dollars?

Note that lashings/canings can be pretty brutal and leave you permanently disfigured.

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

It was a plot point in Starship Troopers. Basically society started using corporal punishment because it is far more effective as deterrent than just wasting public money to have the criminals make trouble elsewhere. This extends into corporal punishment for children, rather than waiting to them to become fucked up few years down the line.

Don't know if it will be effective, but it's an interesting experiment.

 

[Medulseur]

I believe the justice system should focus on rehabilitation rather than punishment. A hardened criminal could probably take a flogging no problem and get right back to work after, but twenty, ten, even five years of prison could change somebody. I realize that isn't always the case and many criminals go decades in prison only to go right back to crime but I believe corporal punishments will have a much lesser effect. I also realize that the rehabilitation aspect, at least as far as I know in America, is hampered by things like local corruption, prison rape, and many other factors. You could always increase the severity/pain but then it becomes a humane issue. Would you just flog/beat them more harshly each time they offend or for greater offenses and what if it kills them? Like all things related to the justice system it is a complex topic. Perhaps if we introduced corporal punishment into the prison systems we already have once we clear out the bad elements that already hamper rehabilitation? I have also wondered if mandatory military service would be a good way to rehabilitate, but that is it's own can of worms. Sorry for the small text wall, I put a lot of thought into stuff like this.

 

[Dirty Larry]

I endorse it but only if it's opened up as a public spectacle. Public humiliation/shaming oughta be a good deterrent if the physical pain or imprisonment isn't. Apparently Iran is still using it and if it can keep those people in line, I'm sure it'll straighten out at least a few people in the first world. I don't care how hard you think you are, if the whole town watches you getting lashed it's gonna fuck with your psyche.

 

[Penis Drager]

A hardened criminal could probably take a flogging no problem and get right back to work after, but twenty, ten, even five years of prison could change somebody

So I spent a good bit of time, and graduated from, a high school for "at risk youth." One of the common jokes thrown around that place went something along the lines of "Yea, we don't want you using or dealing drugs so we're gonna send you to a school filled with drug dealers/users..."
Yeah, the access to the drugs is minimized in the prison system (however, it's an open secret in my neck of the woods that the prison guards will do the smuggling for you for certain favors/bribes, especially in womens' prisons). How much rehabilitation actually goes on when you're spending all of your time with criminals?

 

[Medulseur]

So I spent a good bit of time, and graduated from, a high school for "at risk youth." One of the common jokes thrown around that place went something along the lines of "Yea, we don't want you using or dealing drugs so we're gonna send you to a school filled with drug dealers/users..."
Yeah, the access to the drugs is minimized in the prison system (however, it's an open secret in my neck of the woods that the prison guards will do the smuggling for you for certain favors/bribes, especially in womens' prisons). How much rehabilitation actually goes on when you're spending all of your time with criminals?

That lends to what I mentioned earlier about weeding out corruption in prison staff. If it is an open secret/common knowledge that stuff like that is going on then something should be done to correct it. As for spending time with other inmates there is something to be said about people negatively influencing each other. I do wonder if prisoners spent most of their time in solitary cells without human contact would this help them rehabilitate? Would it be cruel to deprive a human, even a criminal, of their social needs? Again, how hard do you beat someone for doing drugs? Many people who use drugs tend to use them to escape pain, so it could spur them in the wrong direction. Also we have to consider how the rest of the country would react, assuming we are talking specifically about American Institutions. Most people don't want to see others beaten or humiliated. Sure there are a lot of people who say shit like "I hope Bubba tears his ass up when he goes to prison" or "She should get shanked" but that only goes so far until there is a criminal they relate to or sympathize with. Fact of the matter is corporal could make a difference, but I think it would be much better if we fixed the various issues in our institutions before we go that far.

 

[Penis Drager]

I think it would be much better if we fixed the various issues in our institutions before we go that far.

I understand your concerns, but this final statement is something that always rubbed me the wrong way:
"We can't apply [this patch] until we have fixed everything else that's wrong with the system" sound good on paper, but is simply not feasible in practice.
Sure, it's better to fix the core problems in your code as opposed to just throwing a bandaid on it with a few lines that fix some external problems that result from it, but the bandaid is typically much more feasible. You're not gonna fix the problem of prison guards accepting blowjobs for drugs without a massive overhaul of the whole system.
Last time I was in court for an arraignment, one guy actually opted to go to jail as opposed to paying a fine. The judge gave a long lecture about debtor's jail and whatnot alluding to how it is core to our modern system that one not be sentenced to jail to pay off a debt. The judge did comply with his request (I believe at the rate of "one day in jail = $180" or something like that). I'm simply arguing that maybe a similar option be applied to corporal punishment:
The default judgement is applied; The defendant requests corporal punishment as an alternative; The judge evaluates whether the defendant is eligible for this adjustment and, if he does, sets a fair rate.

I can't say I support or reject the idea, but it is something I've had on my mind for a while. I'd certainly take a lashing or two over my little fine, three might be pushing it, though.

 

[Medulseur]

I can't say I support or reject the idea, but it is something I've had on my mind for a while. I'd certainly take a lashing or two over my little fine, three might be pushing it, though.

True, it may take a long time to fix the prison system, it may even be beyond fixing. But if you can say that flogging/corporal punishment is something you would be willing to do instead of incarceration or fines do you really believe it would be that affective towards criminals? "Oh I don't want to go to prison or lose all my money, I'll just grit my teeth and sleep on my belly for a few days."" Also bear in mind countries that do this are often under extreme moral authorities. Iraq doesn't flog thieves, they amputate them. Malaysia doesn't imprison or flog drug abusers, they kill them. Both of these countries use corporal punishment but typically for lighter offenses. I fear that if America used corporal punishment it could lead to a slippery slope where we could end up doing more harm than rehabilitation, especially considering both political wings have particular opinions as to how certain crimes should be punished and what should be considered a crime.

 

[Pixy]

Look at the existence of Australia to see that it just won't work. An entire nation built upon corporal punishment, and see how it turned out.

 

[Penis Drager]

True, it may take a long time to fix the prison system, it may even be beyond fixing. But if you can say that flogging/corporal punishment is something you would be willing to do instead of incarceration or fines do you really believe it would be that affective towards criminals? "Oh I don't want to go to prison or lose all my money, I'll just grit my teeth and sleep on my belly for a few days."" Also bear in mind countries that do this are often under extreme moral authorities. Iraq doesn't flog thieves, they amputate them. Malaysia doesn't imprison or flog drug abusers, they kill them. Both of these countries use corporal punishment but typically for lighter offenses. I fear that if America used corporal punishment it could lead to a slippery slope where we could end up doing more harm than rehabilitation, especially considering both political wings have particular opinions as to how certain crimes should be punished and what should be considered a crime.

Just because shithole countries do shithole country things does not mean adopting some parts of their system is inherently a bad thing. It's actually a common criticism of the American justice system that those that leave prison are left without a source of income and so have to reintegrate themselves in the criminal life just to get by, which feeds a viscous cycle.
Again: the application of corporal punishment will be at the discretion of the judge and he is free to say "no, fuck off. Jail is your home now." If we wanted to make a slippery slope argument, we could easily say that any hate crime deserves life in prison. We haven't done than, now, have we?
Some slopes are slippery, but not all of them are.

Look at the existence of Australia to see that it just won't work. An entire nation built upon corporal punishment, and see how it turned out.

I'd like to know more.

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

I believe the justice system should focus on rehabilitation rather than punishment. A hardened criminal could probably take a flogging no problem and get right back to work after, but twenty, ten, even five years of prison could change somebody. I realize that isn't always the case and many criminals go decades in prison only to go right back to crime but I believe corporal punishments will have a much lesser effect. I also realize that the rehabilitation aspect, at least as far as I know in America, is hampered by things like local corruption, prison rape, and many other factors. You could always increase the severity/pain but then it becomes a humane issue. Would you just flog/beat them more harshly each time they offend or for greater offenses and what if it kills them? Like all things related to the justice system it is a complex topic. Perhaps if we introduced corporal punishment into the prison systems we already have once we clear out the bad elements that already hamper rehabilitation? I have also wondered if mandatory military service would be a good way to rehabilitate, but that is it's own can of worms. Sorry for the small text wall, I put a lot of thought into stuff like this.

I never understood the idea that prison is for rehabilitation, maybe for people under the age of 18 rehabilitation is an option. But for people over that age? How many of them will use those new life skills, let alone in a productive way? And I mean by percentage, not few cases (with their endings not expanded on). Also how is it moral? You fucked someone's life and in return you get tutoring that an average citizen needs a loan for.
If someone does drugs then put him in forced rehab, if a 30 year old nigger threatens a pregnant woman just put a bullet in his brain.

 

[Lemmingwise]

People misunderstand the value of public punishment. It's not there for the target,but for the others watching.

Teachers can discover this experientially. You don't intimidate a kid by sending him out or punishing him. You harden him instead and what used to be scary becomes common quickly. It also deteriates the relationship.

But it works wonders on the other kids, especially if they see how it can be prevented.

 

[Bad Gateway]

mmm yeah put me in the stocks and spank me state daddy

 

[KiwiFuzz]

The stocks should be a form of punishment for low-level property crime.

I don't like to bandy about a certain word found under "N" in the dictionary, but a public spectacle like that might be a deterrent. Getting heckled for 8 hours straight might take the wind out of a few sails.