Steam has updated its Steam Subscriber Agreement

Foxxo

Foxxo

ON THE ROAD AGAIN
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I did not read it before, and I can only barely skim it now without wanting to die.

Supposedly the change is in this section:

Most user concerns can be resolved by use of our Steam support site at https://support.steampowered.com/. If Valve is unable to resolve your concerns and a dispute remains between you and Valve, this Section explains how the parties have agreed to resolve it.

For All Subscribers Outside the European Union and United Kingdom:

You and Valve agree that this Agreement shall be deemed to have been made and executed in the State of Washington, U.S.A., and Washington law, excluding conflict of laws principles and the Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods, governs all disputes and claims arising out of or relating to: (i) any aspect of the relationship between us; (ii) this Agreement; or (iii) your use of Steam, your Account or the Content and Services. You and Valve agree that all disputes and claims between you and Valve (including any dispute or claim that arose before the existence of this or any prior agreement) shall be commenced and maintained exclusively in any state or federal court located in King County, Washington, having subject matter jurisdiction. You and Valve hereby consent to the exclusive jurisdiction of such courts and waive any objections as to personal jurisdiction or venue in such courts.

If the laws where you live mandate alternative dispute resolution options, you may seek a remedy under those options. If you are a consumer who lives in Russia, you may also seek a remedy with local Russian state courts.

For EU and UK Subscribers:

This Agreement is governed by the law of the country where you have your habitual residence.

In the event of a dispute relating to the interpretation, the performance or the validity of the Subscriber Agreement, an amicable solution may be sought before any legal action. You can file your complaint at http://help.steampowered.com. The European Commission provides an Online Dispute Resolution website for EU consumers at https://ec.europa.eu/consumers/odr. Participation in this website is not available to US companies, which is why Valve is not registered there. However, insofar as your complaint concerns the behavior of Valve’s data protection representative Valve GmbH you can file your complaint there.

In the event that an Alternative Dispute Resolution Procedure fails, or if either Valve or you prefer not to resort to Alternative Dispute Resolution, you may bring proceedings in the courts of the place where you are domiciled.
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So what was changed?
 
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Supposedly this is a move by Valve to not get tied up in a ton of arbitration cases which would have cost them a lot of money.

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https://casetext.com/case/valve-corp-v-zaiger-llc
 
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Drael said:
Supposedly this is a move by Valve to not get tied up in a ton of arbitration cases which would have cost them a lot of money.

View attachment 6459981

https://casetext.com/case/valve-corp-v-zaiger-llc
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Primer: I have some experience with arbitration.

I will give some context as to why mass arbitrations are bad for corporations, and why we're likely to see more corporations move away from binding arbitration clauses. (Or: How to Fuck Corpos out of Business With Their Own EULA)

It is widely known that arbitration tends to favor corporations, but most people only understand this vaguely and do not understand the mechanics behind it. Arbitration basically means that, instead of going to court, two parties settle their dispute in front of an arbitrator. Who can be an arbitrator? Fucking anyone. Seriously, fucking anybody at all can just be one of these guys. Sure, there are different credentialing organizations and nonprofits that will vet arbitrators, but, technically, anyone can become an arbitrator very, very easily. That being said, most arbitrators are attorneys or retired judges.

The Arbitration Process:
The very short version of how it works (generally), is that when a dispute happens and arbitration is invoked, the parties are presented by the accrediting organization (assuming they are using one) with a list of potential arbitrators and their qualifications and experience. Either side can veto arbitrators, and if the list is exhausted, a new list can be requested from the accrediting organization.

After the arbitrator is selected, he will provide a list of dates he is available, and the sides will agree on one. From there it's basically just waiting until the actual trial date comes, and the arbitrator hears the sides present their arguments. After this, most of the time they have up to 90 days to present their decision. There is no jury, and, in the majority of cases, there is no appeal.

The arbitration process is pretty expensive for a mortal like us. Here is a non-exhaustive list of things that cost money during arbitration. This list does not include the cost of the sides hiring attorneys, this is just the process itself. I want to be very clear that I am not joking. These are all things routinely charged.

- Requesting a list of arbitrators from the accrediting organization (you must pay for every single list they send you, if you continue to exhaust them)
- Selecting an arbitrator
- Receiving a list of available dates from an arbitrator
- Selecting an arbitration date
- Moving an arbitration date
- Cancelling an arbitration date
- Arbitrator fees (hourly, like an attorney. Billable hours include things like writing the decision, and I have routinely seen costs in the hundreds of dollars an hour)
- Travel expenses for the arbitrator, to include flights, lodging, and per diem.

Here's the kicker: these costs are split equally by all parties. What this means is that if you get thousands of assholes to go into arbitration, a corporation can lose millions and millions of dollars in arbitration fees alone, even if they never lose a single case. Shit, a company can be out a few grand even if the plaintiff cancels the arbitration, per case.
 
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A Cardboard Box said:
It is widely known that arbitration tends to favor corporations, but most people only understand this vaguely and do not understand the mechanics behind it.
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Interesting, it probably applies to USA and maybe international arbitration? Out here arbitration is reserved for company vs. company cases only by law. And it's rarely used.
 
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Counterfeit Obol said:
>Anti-competitive
>Where the most Valve does is operate normally while most other storefront attempts fall flat on their faces

Knowing this is coming from the Wolfire fags makes me side with Gaben out of petty spite.
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"Valve uses its dominance over PC game distribution to impose and anticompetitively maintain a 30% commission on nearly every sale made through its store. This commission far exceeds what would prevail in a competitive market and yields Valve billions of dollars in annual profits."
Yes they're asking for 30% and not 12% because they're offering more than what you'd expect from a game storefront. It's for that same reason they dominate too,

Sell your game through Epic Games Store and you basically get a single page with your game and media. The EGS sdk is only multiplayer authentication related shit and achievements.
Sell your game through Steam and you have a store page, an entire community hub just for your game that hosts screenshots/artworks/videos/mods, a forum that Valve can optionally janny for you, the Steamworks SDK which is absolutely cracked (secure P2P connections with private Valve relays, OpenVR, Steam Audio, Steam Input, Workshop...), ability to post dev news that notify players (this doesn't even seem to be an option on EGS lol), inventory system tied to a market, a bunch of features on the consumer's side that have basically been perfected like the ingame overlay, UI, a native Linux client and Proton for a translation layer to play Windows games...

I could go on and on about all the shit Valve offers devs and players but everyone who plays games already knows all this
You'll flop way harder going with Epic's underdeveloped service, even with the "humble" 12% cut that they ask for, simply because they offer fuckall in comparison. I don't think I even need to mention other storefronts like the 2K Launcher, Origin, Ubisoft Connect, who don't even try.
 
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I was hatching swarms of Compies in Jurassic Park Evolution, lost in a hazy daydream about Compies running through my yard catching June bugs, then this lawyer busts in like the Kool-Aid Man and brings me down.
 
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BirdUp said:
Use GOG. Pirate everything that's only available on Steam.
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I only play Steam games that I "paid" through skin trading, Haven't wasted a single "real" card money on Steam for over a decade now, only wasted a few dollars on GOG when it was a 99% off sale or something and pretty much recreated my old library for ~$70. It was only worth it due to the archive installer + patches, otherwise I would have gotten the torrent or CD rip version instead (like God actually intended).

The day Steam removes the pay for games with fake points is the day I uninstall Steam. (Will never happen due to how the skin market work)


Homocull said:
2K Launcher, Origin, Ubisoft Connect, who don't even try.
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It really is the "do nothing, and win" meme with Valve, just make it work and don't fuck it up. It's that simple.

I'm not kidding, you mentioned "Origin", that client got discontinued and you had to manually go to EA's new page and download the new client and re-install/sync everything. Since they don't show any stats, I'm pretty sure they lost a lot of EA players that day. I refuse to manually install another client of the same company and I can imagine people even more tech illiterate than I'm, lost their minds when the sync shit didn't work and moved on to something else... except for the FIFA retards, they accept anything and refuse to let go, pretty sure that's the reason why that client migration had some users sticking around.

I will die on the Steam hill purely for the "sunk cost fallacy" meme and the "it just works" meme, with GOG Galaxy for cloud save.
 
Homocull said:
"Valve uses its dominance over PC game distribution to impose and anticompetitively maintain a 30% commission on nearly every sale made through its store. This commission far exceeds what would prevail in a competitive market and yields Valve billions of dollars in annual profits."
Yes they're asking for 30% and not 12% because they're offering more than what you'd expect from a game storefront. It's for that same reason they dominate too,

Sell your game through Epic Games Store and you basically get a single page with your game and media. The EGS sdk is only multiplayer authentication related shit and achievements.
Sell your game through Steam and you have a store page, an entire community hub just for your game that hosts screenshots/artworks/videos/mods, a forum that Valve can optionally janny for you, the Steamworks SDK which is absolutely cracked (secure P2P connections with private Valve relays, OpenVR, Steam Audio, Steam Input, Workshop...), ability to post dev news that notify players (this doesn't even seem to be an option on EGS lol), inventory system tied to a market, a bunch of features on the consumer's side that have basically been perfected like the ingame overlay, UI, a native Linux client and Proton for a translation layer to play Windows games...

I could go on and on about all the shit Valve offers devs and players but everyone who plays games already knows all this
You'll flop way harder going with Epic's underdeveloped service, even with the "humble" 12% cut that they ask for, simply because they offer fuckall in comparison. I don't think I even need to mention other storefronts like the 2K Launcher, Origin, Ubisoft Connect, who don't even try.
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This is also not mentioning that Valve is... essentially single-handedly responsible for taking the pants-shitting Linux Gaming space and potty-training it. like, there is a whole new market available to every PC developer now, thanks to Valve. it's a small market largely populated by autists, but it's a new market nonetheless. If they make something that can viably allow Apple computers to host steam games? That's just the whole pc marketing space opened up.

I say this as someone who's generally been incredibly dismissive of the Steam Deck. It's a market changer. It opens up PC game developers to Linux users and to pseudo-handheld gaming like the switch. You need to treat that with respect.

And this is all putting aside that nobody's actually... you know, proven that 12% is a sustainable market cut.
 
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It doesn't seem like they lost the case though. It was dismissed because the court didn't have jurisdiction over Zaiger. They can file another one to a proper court I guess, but it will take a lot of time, and while the process goes, the Zaiger will initiate thoses cases, so they removed that section about arbitration. That's how I understand it.
 
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