The Elder Scrolls

[Coldsteel the Hedgeheg]

Question from someone who's been out of the scene for the a while: I've noticed people are generally more disgruntled with the recent Bethesda games. Is there a reason modders can't unfuck these games like they have with previous releases? Because I remember that was pretty much always Bethesda's shtick is releasing janky/broken games with a ton of content and letting the community fix it.

This biggest thing people shit on the newer titles for is the writing and lore, and that's pretty much the only stuff you can't really fix. There's been a few efforts to rewrite Skyrim's various quests but all the big ones fizzled out.

 

[Jose Beaner Luna]

Question from someone who's been out of the scene for the a while: I've noticed people are generally more disgruntled with the recent Bethesda games. Is there a reason modders can't unfuck these games like they have with previous releases? Because I remember that was pretty much always Bethesda's shtick is releasing janky/broken games with a ton of content and letting the community fix it.

Modders only work with games that interest them, bethesda doesnt seem to grasp this so they continuosly make their games more and more empty to turn them into "canvases" for modders when It doesnt work like that.

Skyrim is heavily modded because is the eternal potential man, every time you think about It you want to add something that would make the experience better and achieve that thought of "what could have been", Morrowind is the same but unlike Skyrim people want more of It and so add mods that expand the playtime and exploration rather than fixing It.

I realized this when modding kenshi, people only worked with the áreas they visited the most and the ones that were pretty much empty or in need of a makeover were rarely touched because people have no attachment or interest on them because of said emptyness.

 

[StacticShock]

This biggest thing people shit on the newer titles for is the writing and lore, and that's pretty much the only stuff you can't really fix. There's been a few efforts to rewrite Skyrim's various quests but all the big ones fizzled out.

with the advent of AI technical mods aren't exactly a issue, there is a saarfield mod in dev that lets you fly in and out of planets now but yeah the problem is writing.
i have hopes someone can pick the open cities mod and make it not shit because shartmoor already done it.

 

[Vlad the Implier]

Modders only work with games that interest them, bethesda doesnt seem to grasp this so they continuosly make their games more and more empty to turn them into "canvases" for modders when It doesnt work like that.

I realized this when modding kenshi, people only worked with the áreas they visited the most and the ones that were pretty much empty or in need of a makeover were rarely touched because people have no attachment or interest on them because of said emptyness.

That's actually really interesting and it makes a ton of sense in terms of motive.

Developers/writers/artists are paid to actually create the game and its content. Modders are first and foremost players who engage with the game's content and make mods to enhance their experience with it. If there's no quality content to engage with, then why even bother buying the game in the first place let alone modding it? You'd just be working for free for something you don't even like.

 

[>IMPLYING]

Question from someone who's been out of the scene for the a while: I've noticed people are generally more disgruntled with the recent Bethesda games. Is there a reason modders can't unfuck these games like they have with previous releases? Because I remember that was pretty much always Bethesda's shtick is releasing janky/broken games with a ton of content and letting the community fix it.

The game has to be "good enough" to be worth modding. Though that might be an understatement, but "inspiring" feels too grandoise.

Fact of the matter is: Bethesda's good games didn't need to be unfucked just to be worth a playthrough. You might miss the conveniences and content afforded by mods, and "good" might still have you put Skyrim at a 6/10 or something, but nobody has to put a gun to your head to play through one of their good games again. You would have to if you wanted me to play Starfield.

Fallout 76 is an online-only game with (as I'm told) awful narrative content, so even if it was playable single-player, it's still not worth modding.
Elder Scrolls Online isn't technically Bethesda but they've released so few games in the past decade you might as well. Same issues as Fallout 76 alongside unsalvageable gameplay on the basis of being an MMO.
Fallout 4 is contentious but even if you leave out subjective complaints about the narrative (attempts to fix would be stymied by voiced protag and the game's "twist") and gameplay simplification, Bethesda decides to shoot the game in the head at random intervals (pointless patches for creation club content) that it's the equivalent of building a sandcastle at the beach. You know it's just going to disappear with the Bethestide, so why bother?
Starfield has a narrative equivalent of suicide. "Nothing matters" is baked into the very bones of the plot and setting, so Bethesda more or less discourages your imagination at every turn. Every planet is "explored" and it's confirmed there's no intelligent aliens so the easiest quest you could imagine in your head for a sci-fi game (explore this new world->encounter this new race) is already kaput.

TLDR: The stories are so bad you simply won't care for what's happening to the world (not even enough to fill in the blanks yourself), you'll get fucked by random patches, or the game's completely reliant on online servers.

 

[mnt_ms]

Imagine the amount of work needed to implement a normal class and attribute system in Skyrim.
The game is fucked beyond repair.

 

[StacticShock]

Imagine the amount of work needed to implement a normal class and attribute system in Skyrim.
The game is fucked beyond repair.

are you stuck in 2020 or something or did you forget we have clankers now?

we have mods to bridge clankers into testing mods for skyrim now...
fucking hell i'm thinking on taking the clankerpill too, especially seeing the many passthrough mod videos with shit like skyrim and minecraft with destruction of the skyrim terrain:

if you tried doing that by ancient neolithic pre-AI modding methods that'd take a ton of time and headaches but clankers have massively helped doing something many modders would say it's too much of a bother to try.

 

[Vlad the Implier]

Imagine the amount of work needed to implement a normal class and attribute system in Skyrim.
The game is fucked beyond repair.

are you stuck in 2020 or something or did you forget we have clankers now?

I think he was making a funny. But in the chance that I'm wrong, what is the issue with Skyrim? Do people not like the system of gaining points in the skills you actually use?

 

[Coldsteel the Hedgeheg]

i have hopes someone can pick the open cities mod and make it not shit because shartmoor already done it.

I've got good news for you.

Imagine the amount of work needed to implement a normal class and attribute system in Skyrim.

This has existed since LE my guy. There's even more than one option.

I think he was making a funny. But in the chance that I'm wrong, what is the issue with Skyrim? Do people not like the system of gaining points in the skills you actually use?

Skyrim is normie goyslop that removes all the depth and meaningful mechanics in exchange for bar goes up. It has no meaningful choices, plus the writing is dogshit and ruins the lore. It's a mile wide and three inches deep and it's not even really an RPG. Also Emil and Todd Howard killed my dog.

I think that's the usual argument based on the past 600 pages or so of the thread.

 

[StacticShock]

I think he was making a funny. But in the chance that I'm wrong, what is the issue with Skyrim? Do people not like the system of gaining points in the skills you actually use?

not really no, i just wanted to rant at clankers and how they are forcing me to take the clankerpill, his post was the best alibi.

I've got good news for you.

that's good, i hope he gets it working on the level of doing the dungeons too like the LE concept mod.

Skyrim is normie goyslop that removes all the depth and meaningful mechanics in exchange for bar goes up. It has no meaningful choices, plus the writing is dogshit and ruins the lore. It's a mile wide and three inches deep and it's not even really an RPG. Also Emil and Todd Howard killed my dog.

no mention of morrowind being so much far better, 3/10.

 

[Sheep King]

I think he was making a funny. But in the chance that I'm wrong, what is the issue with Skyrim? Do people not like the system of gaining points in the skills you actually use?

I think stats in Morrowind and Oblivion make for better long term progression.
Making a character and choosing where to allocate your points is explicitly a zero sum game at each level where each point spent is a point you wont get somewhere else. Maxing out Endurance or making sure you have enough Strength to carry stuff are choices you have to make and you can always see what you're giving up. Skills are comparatively interchangeable in that there's no concrete benefit to levelling both Heavy Armor and Light Armor in a single playthrough, or One Handed and Destruction when you could focus damage in one. You either keep up with the damage curve or you don't. There's still a trade cost in perks but it's much more obtuse than seeing "oh, I only have 30 Speed, that's going to make travelling a chore".

In theory there's nothing inherently more complex about allocating stat points vs perk points on a skill tree but combined with Skyrim's overall design, the skill tree just funnels players towards the most basic monobuild choice of "how do I squeeze the most damage out of my weapon skill" with a few support skills for flavour. Doing anything less only makes combat more tedious down the line. Of course just adding in attributes doesn't necessarily fix that alone but they do add more ways to manipulate the system which means more ways to make your character unique as well as more ways to reward the player. Oh sweet, a ring of strength, that's good for melee builds but all players benefit from carry weight as well.

I'm not gonna pretend it's easy to design an RPG system but I think two good hallmarks are 1. minmaxing should be an option, and as part of that, 2. characters should be allowed to be *bad* at things as opposed to just being less good. Not having points in Agility or Willpower causes problems you need to fix.
And I think the lack of theorycrafting and depth is a big reason why Skyrim starts to feel hollow after a point, you don't feel like you're building your own character. You're either the gigachad stealth archer, the virgin firebolt spamming Destruction mage or Shield Bashes McGee.

 

[Gog & Magog]

What would you do if a caravan of disgusting kh*jiits began squatting just outside your beautiful village?
a. turn them into rugs
b. rob and expel them
c. enslave them

 

[mnt_ms]

are you stuck in 2020 or something or did you forget we have clankers now?

It is just one issue in an ocean of the others, so I don't bother.

I am not the biggest fan, really. In fact, even the Todd's charms weren't able to melt my stalhrim heart, for I have not bought Skyrim once.

 

[StacticShock]

on the modding topic stuff, someone made a tool to port all of the stuff from old TES games to skyrim, that includes fallout and oblivion:

the mods on his game are fucking disgusting to watch, koreanMMOsoulsslop shit.
but yeah, the conversion is done specifically to skyrim, not the other way around, also on the video i found this comment chain:

that voodoodoll faggot sounds so fucking smug with his last post over the 'tistic not liking how skyblivion people chose not to port the map using the tool in the video and will do their own version of it instead, shame faggots like him can't be called faggots and be told to kill themselves without getting the message deleted and the youtube account banned

 

[Coldsteel the Hedgeheg]

no mention of morrowind being so much far better, 3/10.

Fuck, you're right. How could I forget when it's one of the only four RPGs that have ever been made. As penance I'll assume the position so you can clap back with a sick Dagoth Ur meme and call me an n'wah so that universal balance can be maintained.

 

[Vlad the Implier]

Skyrim is normie goyslop that removes all the depth and meaningful mechanics in exchange for bar goes up. It has no meaningful choices, plus the writing is dogshit and ruins the lore. It's a mile wide and three inches deep and it's not even really an RPG. Also Emil and Todd Howard killed my dog.

no mention of morrowind being so much far better, 3/10.

It was better though! Sware on me mum it's not just me being old!

I'm not gonna pretend it's easy to design an RPG system but I think two good hallmarks are 1. minmaxing should be an option, and as part of that, 2. characters should be allowed to be *bad* at things as opposed to just being less good. Not having points in Agility or Willpower causes problems you need to fix.
And I think the lack of theorycrafting and depth is a big reason why Skyrim starts to feel hollow after a point, you don't feel like you're building your own character. You're either the gigachad stealth archer, the virgin firebolt spamming Destruction mage or Shield Bashes McGee.

I agree completely. I think that's a big part of what breaks immersion its when a game lets you be your own Mary Sue. No one is good at everything, opening one door should close another. On top of that, it makes basically every playthrough feel like the same homogeneous experience. Thats one of the things I really loved about Disco Elysium, it understood that principle.

In the OG Fallout you can basically just be Saul Goodman and convince the final boss to kill himself for you.

What would you do if a caravan of disgusting kh*jiits began squatting just outside your beautiful village?
a. turn them into rugs
b. rob and expel them
c. enslave them

c. enslave them

1. get them addicted to skooma
2. properly enslave them
3. open the world's first and only (at least I think...) furry brothel.

You have any idea what they pay for their fursuits or pornographic art of their fursonas? I'm talking serious money here.

 

[Coldsteel the Hedgeheg]

I think part of the giant gap between people's opinions of Skyrim comes from the divide between intrinsic and extrinsic roleplayers.

I've noticed a lot in talks about roleplay and immersion that a lot of people really need the game to enforce it for them through systematic gameplay to get into it. I'm a sneaktheif and my endurance is shit so I have to go around these enemies and pick them off, etc. The roleplaying comes about as a result of the game having them interact with it in a certain way. They rolled their character, and they want to play through that character's campaign. The fact that their paladin even can reach max archery skill is immersion breaking.

Or, like how @Sheep King and @Vlad the Implier said, they find it dissatisfying to purposefully leave options on the table. It feels more meaningful to have limited options because it reinforces that certain way the game has them interact with it which also reinforces the roleplay that comes with it.

For me, I've never really understood a lot of the complaints those types of players have, because I'm not really like that. I don't give a shit if I can join every single faction on one character because if I'm playing one that would never join the Brotherhood then I'm just not going to do the quest. Whether or not that quest is available doesn't impact its meaningfulness to me because my roleplay doesn't come from how I interact with the game, it's how I interact with the game that comes from the roleplay. What does breaks my immersion is when I have a character narratively that I can't represent through gameplay, in which case a lot of these "immersion improvement" mods and more robust systems can just make things worse by removing my control.

And I think the lack of theorycrafting and depth is a big reason why Skyrim starts to feel hollow after a point, you don't feel like you're building your own character.

I find this fascinating, because I play the game the opposite way. By the time I start a new save, I already have my character built bc my build is functionally the narrative. I don't go in with the plan to play a sneakthief and then decide his name is Hides-His-Teeth, picking up the skills I think he should have along the way. I get off the wagon in Helgen as Hides-His-Teeth who is a slimy bastard, and so when I enter the keep and see the weapons Ralof offers me, I take the bow and dagger because a slimy bastard would never fight fair.

The options and flat floor don't bother me because I'd rather have that then end up halfway through the playthrough and decide that since he's been traveling with Serana that I'd like for him to go from a sneakthief to a sneamage, but now I can't play him that way because I dumped all my stats into bows and took a bane in magic 60hrs earlier while I was still on the character creation screen.

I'm a creative and have done writing and art for years, so I figure that's probably why I lean so heavily in one direction or the other. I don't think there's anything wrong with either playstyle, but I do find it interesting how and why people end up on that scale where they do.

 

[Orchestra]

While I do think that there's a lot of merit to the attribute system and I wouldn't be at all upset to see it return, I've never been able to understand the hype behind classes. In a world where everyone just makes a custom class (because let's be honest we all do that) I fail to see the functional difference between classes tying you to your chosen skills and your investment tying you to your chosen skills. Like sure, you could theoretically switch from two-handed to one-handed mid skyrim playthrough but that'd suck. If anything I prefer the classless system because it lets you delay some choices for a bit if you're indecisive but just want to start playing already. Lost count of the times I've been an hour into an oblivion playthrough and started really wishing I picked blunt.

Nothing wrong with a class system per se, I just don't really see the benefit from tying skills to them. Would be pretty neat if they introduced a more constructive class system that added new abilities or something of the sort. Maybe mages can learn spells for cheaper or berserkers have some kind of rage power.

 

[Coldsteel the Hedgeheg]

In a world where everyone just makes a custom class (because let's be honest we all do that) I fail to see the functional difference between classes tying you to your chosen skills and your investment tying you to your chosen skills.

I think the only real difference is that one of them physically prevents you from using the other skills which stops people who can't help themselves from optimizing the fun out of the game. There are definitely some games where I am that kind of person, Skyrim just isn't really one of them.

 

[Orchestra]

think the only real difference is that one of them physically prevents you from using the other skills

I don't believe that this is the case. You can use miscellaneous skills in Morrowind and minor skills in Oblivion; they just level slower. In fact, the annoying "optimal" Oblivion leveling strategy that some people won't shut up about involves using only the skills that aren't in your class.