The Morality of The Lesser of Two Evils.

[Jetpack Himmler]

Against my better judgement I posted a reply to a tweet that addressed some comments parents in Tennessee made to their local school board. The author of said tweet had the claims that the GOP wanted to turn America to 1930s Germany or 1970s South Africa. My reply was basically that I see both parties as terrible as I am cynical of human nature and a pessimist. His response was thus:

"pretending they're both equally dire is an intellectual dodge that allows the user to justify inaction and apathy. i don't tolerate that. they are not the same. not even remotely. "trust" is not a factor."

What I find striking is that his answer intellectually dishonest. Never once in my reply did I ever say that the Dems and GOP are the same, partly because Twitter allows only so many characters. I have seen too many people use the "lesser of two evils" excuse to justify turning a blind eye to their side's horrid ideological beliefs and actions. However, I decided against pursuing a pointless argument on social media so I let it go. The thought still has burned in my mind for the last few hours so I thought I would posit the question to my fellow Kiwis: what do you make of the argument that both sides are bad? Is it an intellectual dodge, or intellectually honest?

For me, using the argument of one choosing the lesser of two evils is a flimsy excuse for not holding their side to account for their actions. I really stopped caring what letter someone has beside their own name, politicians are greedy parasites who leech off the wealth of their constituents. This is especially true of career politicians and Mark Twain was right when he wrote, “There is no distinctly native American criminal class except Congress." It frustrates me to watch the same idiots keep playing into the same partisan games without the slightest inkling that the politicians and media are toying with them.

 

[Alexander Thaut]

the problem with the choosing of the lesser of two evils is that everyone has a different measurement of what a lesser evil is.

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

Just about everything in today's world a case of choosing the lesser of two evils. The problem is when people flat out deny that their choice is bad in any way ("we need to let trannies into women dressing rooms otherwise they'd kill themselves, fuck you for talking about the kids seeing it"). Or in the case of the centrist position - that he is superior for not expressing any opinion, not giving a feasible alternative and still bitching regardless.

 

[Mnutu]

You were better off calling the guy retarded and histrionic. That he’s escalating the republicans to nazis is the sign that he’s off his rocker. I’d have just pointed out that, if anything, it’s the democrats who are all aboard repressing minorities. Say your piece and stop responding.

As for the idea of lesser evils, it’s both a dodge and a sad reality. That’s the function of a representative republic; you compromise on certain issues to push through the one you believe to be more important. Morality is tricky, and anyone who is attacking you for being morally compromised is just making an attack on your character, to try and goad either you or the audience to their side. He wasn’t engaging in an intellectually honest discussion, but a debate. Most people fail to understand the difference, so you’ve got retards running around saying stupid shit like what he said and thinking they’re better than you, when you could demonstrate the incongruity of his statement.

You shouldn’t expect nuance from retards, and the very concept of lesser evils requires a lot of nuance. No one likes it, it doesn’t sell. Just embrace what little truth you can and tell idiots to fuck off.

 

[ReturnedHermit]

Lesser of two evils is usually a false dilemma. Especially when it comes to politics.

 

[Fomo Hoire]

You Kiwis are the lesser of all evils <3

Maybe a little hyperbolic. Maybe only the lesser of most evils. But still way more serious than it should be

 

[Boris Blank's glass eye]

This person was probably going to dismiss your argument anyway - if you had asked about the mas deportations or gov't snooping or political assassinations during the Obama years they'd have called it "whataboutism" and you a MAGApede chud.

Stop using twatter.

 

[Jetpack Himmler]

You shouldn’t expect nuance from retards, and the very concept of lesser evils requires a lot of nuance. No one likes it, it doesn’t sell. Just embrace what little truth you can and tell idiots to fuck off.

There were a couple of times where I considered a response, but decided against because I found it pointless to even argue with him.

 

[MarvinTheParanoidAndroid]

The problem with a lesser evil choice is that there's no genuine good, only damage mitigation. In that same way, Biden could be thought of as a lesser evil to Kamala Harris.

 

[rawhide_k]

yeah, I really don't understand this stance. if you actually consider both "sides" to be evil... just vote for someone else. personally, I thought jo jorgensen was a great option. the last presidential election had several great choices on the sidelines, if you're hardcore freedom, a religious nutjob, or antifa. it's not useless. even if they lose, people will still see the numbers they generated. especially now, if people voted for third parties despite the media, they'd have to take notice. in the UK there are examples of policy shifting in the "main" parties after voting turnout for third parties came about. although what we really need is nationwide ranked choice voting and actual education on what that means for you. they had it in alaska and maine I think for the last election? but nothing much changed. how many people do you think actually knew how to use it?

of course, as a monopoly, the democratic and republic parties have a vested interest in you NOT knowing about these other candidates and other forms of voting that give you more flexibility. and as they both own the dominant media empires, they can choose not to disseminate that information...

do people even know that the RNC and DNC and debates are not legally organized/mandated structures?

 

[Blasterisk]

Why concern yourself with being less evil when you could concern yourself with being good?

That's the question people are afraid to answer.

 

[Finder]

I wouldn't vote for someone I considered evil or bad, but of course then you get people screeching about nOt VoTiNg.

If presented with two or more evil options I will not pick any of them, I would rather not dirty my hands and have a clean conscience.

 

[Kujo Jotaro]

Reject the system, that's the only solution in the long run. As it stands anyone who attempts to change the current system from within either gets coopted, or completely neutralized. Dem or Rep their both harbingers of tyranny; for all the memes he gave us I don't think drumpf slowed down the "progress" one bit.

 

[L50LasPak]

Anyone attempting to make you choose a "lesser evil" is attempting to sell you something 100% of the time.

Also, I'll reiterate what others have said in this thread. Get the fuck off Twitter.

 

[Tree]

I'm not sure what sides you're putting up for consideration, or if you want some broader dialog on sides in general.

GOP and Dems are the same side arguing with itself, which should be clearer than ever. Neither side supports honesty in sovereignty. The GOP exists to manage the right, not to do anything for it, and to invigorate the left, like the sap you replied to. To think that they'd even inch us closer to 1930s Germany is purely political posturing. It also makes little sense to think we have an accurate picture of 1930s Germany. The victor writes the history books taught in school, the movies shot in Hollywood, and intentionally starves and abuses the surviving German population out of spite, then proceeds to brainwash and abuse them indiscriminately. More books were burned in Germany after the war than before. But the complete cluster of false premises present in your conversation is perhaps besides the point.

For this case, it's intellectually honest to recognize both sides as bad, albeit maybe for different reasons than you hold. Though the leftist is not wrong in it being an intellectual dodge, you are choosing not to contribute yourself to the process of perpetuating this false dichotomy, let alone stand on the side they want you to. I'm sure he'd rather you support the GOP than break out of the frame in which he can parrot the media in calling you a nazi against (((our))) democracy as a sufficient argument for his positions.

Mark Twain was right when he wrote “There is no distinctly native American criminal class except Congress."

Ah yes, Twain died in 1910, back when people better knew their place, before blacks were turned into tools of anarchotyranny, and we still had folks like Henry Ford fighting the good fight. Read his books while you can if you want to know history that isn't taught.

 

[feedtheoctopus]

The fact that we as a society are incapable of seeing possibilities beyond these two political parties is what actual cynicism is. Liberals who do the "vote for us or you're helping fascism!" thing don't seem to realize how deep in the partisan hole they are. That isn't to exonerate the GOP, who are indeed human shit. But the democratic party is far, far, from noble and well intentioned by itself. And no political party should be as powerful and dominant as either of these two. Right now in America the political system has stagnated to the point of barely existing because we've allowed these two private organizations to capture every single institution in the country (oh yeah, they're private organizations, nowhere in the constitution does it say they are supposed to exist. People forget that.).

It's easy to say "it could be worse" but people are suffering because of this situation and what remains of democracy is breaking down because there's no way to actually address the root causes of our social and economic woes through the federal government. And the neat division of two parties has had the effect of splitting the country into two increasingly hostile camps. Now you're either "us" or "them", there's no nuance possible in this situation.

None of this is human nature, we're just using a broken and irrational political system designed by 18th century aristocrats to tackle 21st century problems and it is failing like it was always going to. We're allowing institutional capture to prevent new ideas and parties from entering into our politics and the result is ossification and decay.

America has allowed these two parties to create a society where nothing can change except through disorder and chaos.

 

[Jetpack Himmler]

The fact that we as a society are incapable of seeing possibilities beyond these two political parties is what actual cynicism is. Liberals who do the "vote for us or you're helping fascism!" thing don't seem to realize how deep in the partisan hole they are. That isn't to exonerate the GOP, who are indeed human shit. But the democratic party is far, far, from noble and well intentioned by itself. And no political party should be as powerful and dominant as either of these two. Right now in America the political system has stagnated to the point of barely existing because we've allowed these two private organizations to capture every single institution in the country (oh yeah, they're private organizations, nowhere in the constitution does it say they are supposed to exist. People forget that.).

One of the things I find utterly hilarious about Democratic supporters is that they are under the impression that they have no institutional power. They currently hold the House, Senate, and Presidency although that may change with next year's midterms. Meanwhile, they have a death grip on the educational system up to university, corporations (look at how Pride Month turned into 30 days of public corporate masturbation and how quick they were to ditch the rainbows come July), big tech, the media, and popular culture. As you said, the GOP merely exists to act as a speed bump by wrangling the right wing. What the left fails to recognize is they aren't fighting "the man". They ARE "the man". Fuck. These idiots fail to realize is that many of the most corrupt and worst-run cities in the United States have had Democratic mayors for decades. My opinion has always been if it mattered enough to the Democrats to fix the social ills that plague the country, they would have done so long ago. Black children wouldn't die in the crossfire of drive-by shootings in Chicago. The homeless wouldn't be shitting on the streets of San Francisco and leaving syringes on the curb. These fuckers don't give a fuck and will--at best--give lip service while skimming off their porkbarrel spending.

For the sake of disclosure, I should mention that I'm Canadian so I have no direct stake in the American two-party system, but I see similar themes in Canadian politics. The Conservative Party is really little more than controlled opposition and the NDP are slightly farther left than the ruling Liberal Party while the Bloc Quebecois is a regional party that will squeeze concessions for Quebec at the expense of the rest of the country. The Liberals are similar to the Democrats insofar as they will demonize the Tories as the second coming of Hitler despite Erin O'Toole being as milquetoast as they come. Similarly, they practically own the media whether it is the CBC or the Unifor (a union that many reporters belong to.) Same for the education system as the unions are firmly in the Left's camp.

 

[feedtheoctopus]

One of the things I find utterly hilarious about Democratic supporters is that they are under the impression that they have no institutional power. They currently hold the House, Senate, and Presidency although that may change with next year's midterms. Meanwhile, they have a death grip on the educational system up to university, corporations (look at how Pride Month turned into 30 days of public corporate masturbation and how quick they were to ditch the rainbows come July), big tech, the media, and popular culture. As you said, the GOP merely exists to act as a speed bump by wrangling the right wing. What the left fails to recognize is they aren't fighting "the man". They ARE "the man". Fuck. These idiots fail to realize is that many of the most corrupt and worst-run cities in the United States have had Democratic mayors for decades. My opinion has always been if it mattered enough to the Democrats to fix the social ills that plague the country, they would have done so long ago. Black children wouldn't die in the crossfire of drive-by shootings in Chicago. The homeless wouldn't be shitting on the streets of San Francisco and leaving syringes on the curb. These fuckers don't give a fuck and will--at best--give lip service while skimming off their porkbarrel spending.

For the sake of disclosure, I should mention that I'm Canadian so I have no direct stake in the American two-party system, but I see similar themes in Canadian politics. The Conservative Party is really little more than controlled opposition and the NDP are slightly farther left than the ruling Liberal Party while the Bloc Quebecois is a regional party that will squeeze concessions for Quebec at the expense of the rest of the country. The Liberals are similar to the Democrats insofar as they will demonize the Tories as the second coming of Hitler despite Erin O'Toole being as milquetoast as they come. Similarly, they practically own the media whether it is the CBC or the Unifor (a union that many reporters belong to.) Same for the education system as the unions are firmly in the Left's camp.

Democrats don't actually control shit outside of local anti-smoking ordinances. In congress they're stonewalled by the republicans and too internally divided to present any sort of counterbalance, the GOP has been increasing its control of the courts (only thing that really matters) since the 80's, the republicans control most local and state governments, the republican media is despite all the hoo haaing way more influential and powerful culturally then some jackass on twitter, and they're starting to go after voting rights on top of all that. The democrats are incompetent at their best and pretty much republicans at their worse (see: Joe Manchin).

The reality is that there is no serious opposition to the American right in our government.

Also, don't let corporate America's virtue signaling fool you. They donate money to both sides and when push comes to shove wall street is always going to side with whatever is going to make them the most money at the moment. They'll "celebrate pride" for a month so liberals will keep buying their shit, but then they'll go and invest millions of dollars in new tasers for police and spend even more lobbying against environmental and labor regulations. I remember the 2016 (I think?) super bowl had this advertisement from 84 Lumber that was all about celebrating immigrants. American liberals fell in love with this company, then it came out the owner was a massive donor to Donald Trump's campaign.

America is run by incompetent hypocrites on the left and authoritarian nihilists on the right. There's no hope unless the entire system starts cracking.

 

[Whatevermancer]

>mfw I have to choose between two evils I prefer not to choose at all

 

[Taylor Swift's Ghostwrite]

It boils down to what you're talking about.

If its a question of say, do we let the pedophile we know is one but can't prove continue to go on or kill him ourselves? Thats a legitimate moral question I'd entertain. However, if we're talking about political parties there comes a point where if actually do believe both sides are evil you kind of get into a space where not trying to overhaul the system is a moral failing on your own part. I don't generally ascribe to the idea that inaction is evil, but if your position is that both of the sides of a political system are bad and you chose to prop one up that makes you complacent in their evil and even to a degree endorsing it.

I think the better question is what exactly a moral action from a state should look like. Realistically, and sadly, the world is an amoral place. We aren't moral actors, we can chose to be but at their core humans are going to make selfish choices when allowed to and as such the state exists not to be good but rather to ensure that the people under it minimize what they do to each other and to make sure what other nations do in their pursuit of their own ends don't hurt their citizens too much.