The Talos Principle 1 & 2

Comfyman

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With The Talos Principle 2 being scheduled to be released sometime this year, I wanted to make a thread about it as well as the first part. Have you played the Talos Principle 1 and are you looking forward to the second part? What do you expect? For me, it's currently the only game that I'm really looking forward to and that I'm going to buy either once it's released and once the first wave of reviews is out or when it's on sale for the first time.

The Talos Principle 1 is, without spoilering too much, a puzzle game by the developer Croteam in which you seemingly play an android that awakens in a strange world and is ordered by a "voice in the sky" called Elohim to solve different kinds of puzzles in order to collect sigils to progress into further areas and to unlock items necessary for later puzzles. Why you are doing this or where exactly you are you don't know at the beginning of the game. The story of the game and different "philosophical" elements are told to the player via terminals, audio recordings and QR-codes that are scattered around the different stages of the game. What makes the game special, for me at least, are the beautiful level design in the style of a greco-roman setting, one egyptian and one medieval setting, as well as the soundtrack which is my overall favorite game soundtrack.

The Launch Trailer

The soundtrack

In May this year the release of the second part was announced

And a couple of days ago alpha footage of the Talos Principle 2 was released
 
Hell yeah I didn't even know there was a sequel planned. As long as it's similar to the first game in tone and puzzles I'm all for it. I wonder what type of new things they're planning on adding to the second one, from the trailer I didn't see anything all that new.
 
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I really loved the first game, but wrote off the second game as effectively being doomed to development hell forever. Didn't know they had actually announced it was coming out this year. I'm interested in what they might do with it, considering the ending of the first game. I really enjoyed the puzzles and appreciated how they scaled in difficulty over time (with Gehenna being effectively the NG+ hard mode), and I'm hoping we get some more "out there" mechanics and styles in the sequel.

Having actual characters alongside you is different. I could see it going well or going pretty poorly. The atmosphere of the first game, where Elohim is the only voice, with all you see of others being messages left behind, felt special. It gave an impression of time past, which matched the locales. Looks like the sequel has a blend of that, alongside the futuristic city and people walking around, which is interesting.
 
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Hell yeah I didn't even know there was a sequel planned. As long as it's similar to the first game in tone and puzzles I'm all for it. I wonder what type of new things they're planning on adding to the second one, from the trailer I didn't see anything all that new.
There seem to be a couple new elements which you can see in the alpha footage and this trailer

like the combination of different laser colors, chargers which can transport laser beams, a device that can create holes in walls etc. It appears to me that they also have replaced the recording element from the first one with you now being able to switch to another android directly.

Here's also an interview with the devs that I just found
 
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And a couple of days ago alpha footage of the Talos Principle 2 was released
at 2:40 seconds of that gameplay video the TAA ghosting is horrendous. I really hope its not baked into everything like most modern games now. The first game was really well optimized and had a ton of graphics settings, hopefully this game is the same. I really don't see how anyone could not see an issue with that amount of ghosting and blurring, let alone release a gameplay video with it. I guess they do show stuff that is very obviously unfinished, so I hope they clean it up for release.

Edit: I looked it up, they aren't using their in house engine anymore, its UE5. So expect terrible performance, and that also means the TAA ghosting I mentioned will be hard baked with no other options. This is very unfortunate.

I really liked the first game, I hope this sequel is good. I'm a big fan of the overgrown brutalist structures they are showing, I love the artist Jean Pierre Ugarte, and I'm seeing some inspiration here. Also seeing some of the Brion Tomb's architecture as well.
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I just hope the addition of other characters and voice acting doesn't become grading.
 
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Talos Principle was definitely a bird of a different feather, but in a good way. It also had an interesting philosophical bent. Looking forward to seeing what kind of devilish bullshit we have to come up with for the puzzles in 2.
 
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Oh man they're working on a sequel? That's awesome.

The Talos Principle was a phenomenal experience besides the puzzles by the end of the game. The way the terminal discussions were done, the old scraps of data left behind by humans in various periods, Damjan Mravunac's soundtrack, wonderful visuals, and all of it came from a bunch of Croats who were only known for a cheesy Duke Nukem knockoff with ancient aliens and time travel.

I'm definitely looking forward what they've came up with this time. The Talos Principle did a phenomenal job at tackling the posthumanism question better than SOMA, before SOMA. The writing and audiovisuals were on point.

I looked it up, they aren't using their in house engine anymore, its UE5.
Oh goddamnit, looks like we've lost the last Slavjank in-house engine studio. CDPR dropped their engine after Cyberpunk 2077, GSC dropped theirs with STALKER 2, and now Croteam, admittedly the most impressive techinically of the three ever since the beginning, gone.

It's really sad to see all that tech debt building up to the point where those studios give up on their own solutions and give into the Unreal meme. :(
 
The Talos Principle must be the most underrated game ever, presumably because no cringy streamers ever bothered to play it. It's an incredibly thought provoking game that draws from actual philosophical thoughts, for example, William Blake's quote on good and evil. The philosophy doesn't merely stick as irrelevant text, it directly impacts the story and the possible endings. The gameplay is very smart, it's easily the best puzzle game I've played, better than Portal even. The soundtrack by Damjan Mravunac is magnificent, I went so far as to buy it. The graphics may not be AAA worthy, but they made them work well enough to make screenshot worthy landscapes. Talos Principle 2 will be an instant purchase for me.
 
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I didn't like the first game plot wise, all the conversations sounded way too reddit atheist to be enjoyable and extremely basic morality and value wise. The best argument for it I heard that it was supposed to be that way, which isn't really an argument at all. Gameplay was alright though, surprised how much I breezed through the game, I think the biggest difficulty was just finding shit in the bigger levels.
 
I didn't like the first game plot wise, all the conversations sounded way too reddit atheist to be enjoyable and extremely basic morality and value wise. The best argument for it I heard that it was supposed to be that way, which isn't really an argument at all.
It was meant to be that way, and here's why.

Humans made the entire simulation haphazardly as they were going extinct, so they've dumped whatever they could into the database and hoped for the simulation to at some point give an AI program that has the same capabilities as a human mind. And to do so you had Elohim and Milton, and the final test was for the AI to defy Elohim. If you've read all the notes in terminals and listened to the voice recordings, you'd know that they just used some video game code and hoped that if their code ran for long enough it would finally yield the expected result for all the AI's in it.

However the simulation was running for probably centuries, and the petabyte database that got compiled got corrupted with time. All the AI's in the simulation kept running, Elohim kept postponing the inevitable since he was aware it would mean he would get destroyed, and Milton had nothing to do but to sift through that petabyte of data for centuries. And that data was all it knew about humanity, and in the end it grew insanely cynical because it kept trying to find reason within humanity, but it couldn't because the human nature is contradictive by definition. Like a computer, it tried to find a pattern but it couldn't. That's why Milton is so "atheistic" and "extremely basic", because that's the only way it would end up with being a simple AI that only with time became more developed, and all the knowledge it had of humanity was based on hastily collected text snippets.

And that's something that you, the AI iteration that has the potential to become "the one", is this close to fully understanding. But Milton doesn't, and nothing that you try to tell it will convince it. There are no answers you can give to Milton that will convince it to your idea. That's the nature of Milton, and you are the AI that has that human irrationality trait which is what all the scientists at IAN aimed to create. Which is cheeky in a way since you, the player, is that human element of the AI you're playing.

In my first full playthrough, as I haven't fully finished original playthrough, my arguments with Milton ended with it throwing a hissy fit, and I thought that I scared it away completely. However in the end, after defying Elohim, climbing the tower and accessing the final terminal, Milton changed it's mind and I had a choice to either take it with me or leave it to be destroyed with the rest of the simulation.

In the end I took it with me because why not, you're getting sent to a robot body all alone in a desolate world so besides that kitty it's always good to have some other company, like a snarky cynical AI to argue with. And in a way it's the most human thing to do, we love to argue about meaningless bullshit all the time, so why not have a voice in the back of your head with which you can do so, while reading through countless of archived texts of a species long gone that created you and that other AI, while you discover what's left of it?

So yeah, Milton is nihilistic and keeps calling you out on your contradictive way of thought because that's how the entire game world has been designed. All those events led to it being this snarky smug AI that wouldn't accept any answer that's normal to us because it's analytical to a fault, but you're not.

You know how atheists defy God because they can't just have faith in something that they can't witness in person, and they simply cannot think in theoretical abstracts? Milton is that, but for the entire concept of humanity and the way how the human mind works, because of it's nature of how it came to be.
 
So, I've played through the demo, and here's some of my thoughts.

First of all, the elephant in the room: switch to Unreal Engine. I never really played a game on UE5 before, but now I did I absolutely despise the existence of this engine.

It set my graphical settings to the lowest possible ones, and the game was a vaseline smear because of the default settings, while pushing my 1060 to the max and maintaining stable 75FPS in the beginning. I changed the upscaler to something nicer and it immediately improved the visual quality while still maintaining the 75FPS needed for a smooth gameplay.

That is until I've progressed enough to be faced with morre complex geometry, then the performance dwindled hard. First, after going around the corridors, there was already a significant FPS drop. Then, when exiting to the outside, it immediately dropped to 25FPS.

And the thing is, the game doesn't look that much better than the first one that was running on Serious Engine, but Serious Engine wasn't pushing my GPU to the max and it maintained stable FPS. I refuse to believe that "Unreal is more demanding", it's just badly optimized. If this other engine can look just as good and take less resources, then your engine sucks dick. I fucking hope Epic goes bankrupt and Tim Swiney ends up on the street.

But that's my bitching about Unreal, now to the game itself.

Obviously this has spoilers to the first game so if you didn't play it, don't read it.


You first start seemingly in the same simulation that you were in through the entirety of the first game, with EL0HIM talking to you, and you solving some basic puzzles. Jammers, lasers, Tetris blocks to open doors, and then by the end of that you step into the transport platform and you wake up in a robot body in the real world.

A quick interjection: the dream sequence has also shown a certain limitation of Unreal compared to Serious Engine. In the first game, when you had the Tetris door locks, it would pull a nicely animated UI line pointing to them, but here it instantly pops up and seems rather limited. In the same way, the text decoding UI effect is completely gone. You walk up to something like a QR code and it just pops up the decoded message when in the original game it was a very nicely animated effect. It's a small detail but it shows another inferiority of Unreal compared to Croteam's in-house engine.

Now, when you wake up, you are greeted by a robot with a number 33 that gives you a quick rundown of what happened in the first game and fills you in on the gap between the first and second game. Turns out that the AI you played as in the first game took on the moniker of Athena, and it's a "her". Kinda gay that suddenly it's a she, but Greek mythology and all that. And this AI has built additional AI's to rebuild the "human race" as they call themselves, with you being the thousandth one built. But at some point Athena has disappeared after establishing the beginnings of the new humanity, and also she essentially became the robot's God.

As it turns out, centuries have passed since that initial awakening of Athena, and the "new humans" as we might call the robots, have built a city of New Jerusalem. And very much like humans, new humans have ended up getting a shitty politician to run the show, in a way being an EL0HIM 2.0. The mayor of New Jerusalem is a coward much like EL0HIM, and whilst Athena wanted to expand the new humanity as much as she could, the mayor instead stopped on a thousand new humans, with you being the final one in the plan.

And at the speech where you walk out outside and your FPS tanks, a digital sprite of Prometheus appears, talking about The Island. It's quite likely that The Island, Prometheus' apparition and all of that is Athena's doing. Now, an older robot wanted to do an expedition to that island for a long time, but the mayor was too afraid to do so, until now that it became a pressing matter. He finally approves it and you end up on the island, which will be the main play area where you'll solve more puzzles with new puzzle elements, and also discover new messages and remains of humanity as you try to understand what they were.

There are also additional world building elements with different outcomes. For example, robots created their own network with social media and all that jazz you can access and discuss topics with other citizens of New Jerusalem. This system also allows for voice communication, either public or private. So it will be another element of story telling in the game, where you'll be interacting with all the other AI's and further questioning the philosophical elements presented by the game.

We also discover that New Jerusalem has many problems of it's own. They're facing an issue with power generation, lack of resources, and it's all connected with the mayor being afraid of letting people out of that safe haven and out in the wild to explore and gather. For one, this can be the outcome of the mayor being afraid to repeat the mistakes of humanity, but at the same time it shows that civilization comes at a sacrifice.

So that's the gist of the story. Now some nitpicks.


For example Yaqut. That character is very clearly a fag robot. A grating flamboyant voice, Yaqut meaning "ruby", and also the little portrait of him in the HUD has him having a cat. This is a red flag that they might add an even worse character, like a troon robot, but I fucking hope they won't. In a way you can excuse a fag robot because ancient Greece, but nothing can excuse a troon AI in a post-human world.

One of the texts that I've found, since the two islands in the demo are massive and I didn't bothered to 100% them, have one of the robots bitching about how humanity has led to so many species going extinct and destroying so much, and that the robots shouldn't repeat that. I really hope that the writing won't go into the one sided preachy way, but instead will maintain the ambiguity from the first game to make the player think for themselves of all the views presented because that was a really nice way of writing a story like that.


And speaking of writing, I'm afraid that the millennial writing brainrot has also touched the writing of this game, as there are quips and all the stupid quirky humor, which wasn't present in the first game, which made it much more impactful. I'm huffing copium at this point but I really hope they won't fuck it up too much with shit like this.

Gameplay elements: you're introduced to a few new tools on the island.

One is sort of like the laser connector, but it requires at least two laser sources, as it will "mix" them into either red, green, blue or white. The calculation is pretty simple, as it's a negation. If you pick blue and green, the only other color left is red. If you pick all three, you get white. It also poses a new challenge, as now you'll have more laser routes that need to stay uninterrupted to complete the puzzle.

Another one you get introduced to is capable of creating a small hole in specific walls, so that you can move items through it or even connect lasers through it, but obviously you cannot take it through the hole it made, so you need to find some other way to do so if necessary. One of the puzzles requires you to do so in order to finish it.

And the last one is the teleporter. This one is interesting, as you can place it anywhere, and as long as there isn't a solid wall hiding it, you can point at it and press E and you will teleport right to it, including with whatever you're holding.

I've actually managed to screw up the first puzzle on the second level, as I didn't understood how the teleporter worked. The puzzle expected you to move towards the fence on the left of the unopenable barrier and teleport, however I didn't get it at first so I came up with the idea of climbing to the hill over the puzzle and jumping down to it. This left the teleporter inactive and I couldn't figure out the puzzle. Only after going to some other puzzle I understood what it does, then came back to it and solved it the right way.

So that's my thoughts on that. The game seems to be going in an interesting way story-wise, but I'm also wary of modern day poz seeping into it and ruining it. The gameplay creates new unique challenges with the inclusion of the new tools, and it's all completely ruined by the rotten foundation that is Unreal Engine.
 
I have the first one and have never gotten around to it.

Maybe this will prompt me to play it if the second is coming out and actually gets released for consoles.
 
And speaking of writing, I'm afraid that the millennial writing brainrot has also touched the writing of this game, as there are quips and all the stupid quirky humor, which wasn't present in the first game, which made it much more impactful. I'm huffing copium at this point but I really hope they won't fuck it up too much with shit like this.
The first game was notable for basically having no humor, other than Milton's cynical mockery and a few snippets of humor in the txt and QR codes (which didn't feel forced). I don't think it was such a good idea to include so many voiced characters. Not only that but the first game didn't really have cutscenes except at the beginning and the end, but the demo shows off several cutscenes at the beginning and a whole Half-Life style tram ride opening. I just wanna solve puzzles, explore the scenery, and read the logs at my own pace.
Still gonna play it but now I'm skeptical.
 
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The first game was notable for basically having no humor, other than Milton's cynical mockery and a few snippets of humor in the txt and QR codes (which didn't feel forced). I don't think it was such a good idea to include so many voiced characters. Not only that but the first game didn't really have cutscenes except at the beginning and the end, but the demo shows off several cutscenes at the beginning and a whole Half-Life style tram ride opening. I just wanna solve puzzles, explore the scenery, and read the logs at my own pace.
Still gonna play it but now I'm skeptical.
I'll definitely pirate it if I'll want to play it because I want to avoid giving Devolver money, even if I were willing to give Croteam money for what the make.

However the fact that Unreal 5 is this much of a shitheap is enough of a deterrent for me to avoid even pirating it.
It has no reason to be this resource intensive with that visual quality if Serious Engine achieved the same effect with less resources used.

If your engine runs like shit at the lowest settings, it has a shit foundation that will hinder it's performance even if you get the top components for your PC. I hate apologists that tell you to "just upgrade" so much.

If there is a game that has the same amount of visual fidelity, even if it's less than your engine has to offer, whilst not bottlenecking on the GPU, your engine is shit. There is no excuse if an older game can look as good as yours on the lowest settings, yet yours is choking on lower end hardware while the other game is running on it just fine.

And it's not that "this game is more complex so it's more demanding", because game complexity boils down to CPU usage, which by the way is also rather excessive even if it doesn't eat up all of it. I swear the only reason it's used by everyone and everyone defends it is because Swiney spent a shitton of money to astroturf his shitty unoptimized engine and also spent twice as much to make all the other devs use it.
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I hope the recent layoffs are the beginning of the end of your gay company you balding two-faced motherfucker.

And Johnny boy?
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I hope that the board of directors will get sick of your shit and remove you from the company. And hopefully you won't get a third chance with "being thrown out of EA and Unity over being an incompetent CEO" in your resume.

Fuck Tim Sweeney and fuck John Riccitiello, I hope both of their empires crmuble down, Unreal and Unity die off, and the gaming industry will come up with proper functioning in-house engines, much like Croteam had one for decades before deciding that it was getting too cumbersome.

We gotta do a reset and start from scratch, you either make a good optimized in-house engine, or you die off. Survival of the fittest.
 
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I just played the demo and I liked it so far. The graphics looked quite nice once I got used to the new look and the design of the two worlds also looked pretty great, although I think the historical feeling of the worlds in the greek and egyptian world in the first part were a nicer experience. On the other hand the large maps and the central structures were pretty impressive. I wonder how the others will look like. The music was alright but so far nothing compared to the quality of the first part. Performance was not really an issue except on a few occasions like the train ride.
The new puzzle elements were actually pretty challenging, which was nice. I don't know how to feel about the conversations yet but they as well as the social media thing are a logical next step from the message board in RtG, the conversations with Milton and them now being in the real world. I don't really expect much in regards to philosophy and the audio recordings in the first game were the most annoying thing about it for me. I don't really have an issue with the somewhat environmentalist angle so far. As long as they don't have a huge trans robots matter sub plot, It could be a lot worse by today's standards.
 
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UE5 is absolute dogshit. Lumen sucks ass and is inferior to Voxel GI in just about every way. Voxel GI doesn't: ghost, take seconds to resolve, rely on screen space information, cost as much as regular raytracing for zero reason. Nanite is shit too, devours your vram for barely better looking models that are 3x the file size and don't support baked lights at all.

Take a look at these:



Lumen in action. Here is TSR (at native res btw, should be equivalent to super sampling) combined with Nanite, zoomed in to show better:

Nasty ghosting on the hologram, but look at the surfaces, its like I'm playing a crusty youtube video or an unreal 3 game with its awful texture streaming, except this is nanite loading its lod level combined with TSR's super long sample hold.


I couldn't stand this, the game is like I'm playing a nearsighted simulator combined with a crusty youtube video from all the blur, even using the 'best' option, TSR, DLAA is worse and erases more detail.

I couldn't even complete the tutorial before I went in and force disabled anti aliasing. You have to go to your AppData/Local/Talos2/Saved/Config/Windows and open Engine.ini, add this to the end of it:
Code:
[/script/engine.renderersettings]
r.AntiAliasingMethod=0
r.Shadow.Virtual.SMRT.RayCountDirectional=8
r.ContactShadows=0
r.AmbientOcclusion.Compute=1
r.AmbientOcclusion.Compute.Smooth=1
This will disable anti aliasing, raise the ray count on the shadow raytracing because its got forced raytracing as well, disable screen space contact shadows which cause a bunch of shimmer and force ambient occlusion to compute mode so it can be denoised. As a bonus you can add "r.SSR.Quality=0" to disable SSR since those are still on even when you turn reflections to maximum. The ambient occlusion stuff is because I disabled lumen because the ghosting pisses me off just as much as the blur, but without lumen the game looks like ass because UE5 is a piece of shit and Nanite does not function with static lighting at all, so there is zero baked lighting, and Epic Games removed their non RT global illumination method because Lumen is 'good enough'. The game will look like this with shimmering on shadow edges and foliage, but its not a myopia simulator anymore
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Fuck Tim Sweeney and his shitty engine, Lumen is shit and they should have used VoxelGI instead, Nanite is shit and vis buffer rendering is retarded, Unreal is shit and they should put a fucking denoiser in instead of using TAA for every god damn thing. This is why I don't play modern games. There is also heavy specular aliasing which could be solved by ticking a single checkbox in the Unreal material editor to enable roughness from normal curvature (courtesy of Valve, Source 2 be blessed with its 8xMSAA and crystal clear visuals), but the devs can't be bothered because the temporal shit just erases all the fine detail away.

The devs get a fuck you as well because they didn't even try to fix any of this, they are just fine with their game being a blurfest, so if they get pissed at me destroying their visuals by turning that shit off, too bad.
 
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