What caused the phenomenon of "Fact Checkers", "Debunkers" and especially "Peer Reviewed Sources"? - The politisation of fact checking is a disaster, and all by design.

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Greetings folks. I believe this requires an explanation: fact checkers, debunkers and peer-reviewing are a great tool for us to be grounded in reality, in order to not believe in myths, half-truths and tall tales and other weird things that people may come up with. Examples include "Bigfoot sightings", but I'm sure many knew this. The problem is the "systematisation" and the selling out of those same fact checking organisations and even (what we could call) scientific organisations to the highest bidder in order to push an agenda.

I've been thinking about this a lot lately, and while it is often associated with "left-wing shitlibs", I have been wondering if zionist """right-wing""" ideals would be up for grabs too, just as a polarisation. I may not be the best with giving examples here, but George Soros and Snopes come in mind, as well as Adam Conover and his shitty program "Adam Ruins Everything". Don't get me started with Redditors, when challenged in their worldview, going "Do you have a source for that? A peer-reviewed paper?".

Anyway, feel free to discuss.
 
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Much appreciated!
It's an evolution of media org's regularly assessing the truthfulness of politicians' claims made during election campaigns or flashy press conferences.
Mmmm, yes I suppose it could be it.
 
People finally started realizing Snopes isn't the end-all-be-all "final arbiter" of truth and came to the realization that they need to be able to verify claims themselves. Unfortunately, this merely led to the creation of a million self-styled Snopes-alikes, each with their own political slant (similar to Snopes' for the most part, i.e. "radical leftist"), who are all engaged in a race to the bottom to establish an authoritative "ministry of truth" they can use to fire, imprison or execute people who hold the wrong political opinions.
 
It became an easy way to score political goals by media and redditors. But it's very easy to see the cracks - data that isn't collected truthfully (SF has no crime because the police stopped tracking it), intentionally misunderstanding (Trump said he will live forever and that is impossible), or alternatively ignoring obvious things (game dev saying he wants to rape kids meant it as a metaphor). By now the right doesn't care about those so it's not a factor.

You could argue the "clock until midnight" was the original widely used bullshit scare mongering tool.
 
People finally started realizing Snopes isn't the end-all-be-all "final arbiter" of truth and came to the realization that they need to be able to verify claims themselves. Unfortunately, this merely led to the creation of a million self-styled Snopes-alikes, each with their own political slant (similar to Snopes' for the most part, i.e. "radical leftist"), who are all engaged in a race to the bottom to establish an authoritative "ministry of truth" they can use to fire, imprison or execute people who hold the wrong political opinions.
What I find sad, the most perhaps is how others considered information to be knowledge. Perhaps I'm being optimistic, but for the most part, I guess most people were cattle (I'm saying this in the nicest way possible, not in a snobbish way - consider one would need an encyclopaedia + an index to find what they would require. It would need effort and time. That's why we always needed a "priestly class" to do this for us).

What's sad is that is that in the so-called Information Age, where information is readily available and anyone can do this, and STILL be lead to think that one is a "free thinker". There is no excuse. This is why I agree with Terry Davis that today people are a niggercattle, and I say with utter distaste. I know, the information war has so many layers we can't even be sure what is or isn't true. Yet, there must be bits and pieces that we can put up together and find something, right? Together with things that withstood the test of time - political systems for example. We also must be humble and say that we cannot know everything.

It doesn't help that it's an eye-opening fact that @The Mass Shooter Ron Soye shared a document where an Industrial Complex wants to control the way we think. Let alone certain headlines that we saw that "studies" were being "conducted" about "brainwaves to get people to be more accepting to immigration, LGBT rights" and other shitlib ideals.
It became an easy way to score political goals by media and redditors. But it's very easy to see the cracks - data that isn't collected truthfully (SF has no crime because the police stopped tracking it), intentionally misunderstanding (Trump said he will live forever and that is impossible), or alternatively ignoring obvious things (game dev saying he wants to rape kids meant it as a metaphor). By now the right doesn't care about those so it's not a factor.

You could argue the "clock until midnight" was the original widely used bullshit scare mongering tool.
Yeah, good point. Three factors have to be aligned, and when one misses, it trickles down with the "story" that follows (Example, since I'm ESL: SF without crime statistics, and thus there is difficulty tracking it. If humanity makes it to 2500s/26th century, will a potential civilization say SF was a bastion of no criminality, or perhaps the model of America in terms of degeneracy - like how people still believe in Middle Ages that citizens pooped in buckets and threw it from windows.)
 
The fundamental problem is that we live in a world of dual truths. A Trump voter will automatically dismiss anything that a fact checker claims and vice versa. If people can not agree on basic facts, then at what chance can any agreement be found? For the exact reason, probably the internet more than anything, though there are probably plenty of factors. The internet naturally divides people into groups, and exposes them only to what they want to see.
 
It's an evolution of media org's regularly assessing the truthfulness of politicians' claims made during election campaigns or flashy press conferences.
I feel like the turning point came at some point between the 2016 and 2020 elections, honestly, and probably didn't have as much to do with domestic US political motives as people tend to assume. They're involved, but mostly indirectly, because they can be used as a means to an end. It's mainly about public image and the risk of legislators using that to do away with laws protecting hosts from consequences for user generated content, with IP trolls will look for any excuse to challenge.

Issues with content- and bot-farm driven misinformation had been an issue on social media for years, but up to that point it had been allowed to grow unchecked because it was a net positive for companies like Facebook and Twitter. It drove engagement by being sensational in a way that factually correct content could rarely manage, which drove advertising revenue, which made the happy numbers go up on their balance sheets. Considering that social media companies were just starting to make IPOs and to transition from funds-hemorrhaging tech start-ups to serious investment opportunities in the mid-2010s, its kind of hard to blame them from the point-of-view of most of their leaders. They knew it would eventually blow up and cause a scandal but, like investment bankers during the mid-2000s real estate bubble, they figured it would happen after they'd taken their money, dropped out of the game, and ran with it.

2016 was different for two reasons, though. On the one hand, it was the first US presidential election since 2012, when most bullshit online was still being spammed by individuals in the US who either distanced themselves from it or used claims of "satire" as cover, meaning that the summer of that year very quickly became the high water mark for a new age of bullshit written internationally and disseminated by what now seems like very primitive AI. The programs involved might seem almost childishly stupid now, but they were fucking  frightening compared to the basic algorithms and text generation strings that had existed beforehand. For the first time, they were being rolled out on a large scale and utilized by organizations like the Russian and Chinese security agencies (as opposed to scammers and counterfeit resellers, who had been using them on a smaller scale since at least 2014), resulting in explosive revelations about how Facebook was handling user data and failing to address deliberately malicious use of its platform. On the other, the election ended up being won by Donald Trump, which was unexpected by a lot of people in Blue States considering how poorly he had been polling beforehand in the surveys released by some major political and news agencies. People who didn't support him wanted an explanation.

In reality? His victory in 2016 probably had very little to do with interference by Authoritarian states like Russia or China. We don't know exactly what the reasoning behind their behavior was, since most documents are obviously still sealed. The overall impression, though, paints a picture of an awkward, fumbling mess probably handled by new internal working groups testing what level of influence they could actually have and trying to justify their existence to higher-ups, who'd served in the KGB and MSS during the last years of the Cold War, and who thought the whole idea was fucking retarded. The English in known propaganda pieces is usually decent but feels vaguely off, and the messaging seems muddled and targets both sides. At some point, a descendant of the KGB started selling Black Lives Matter Christmas sweaters that knitted "Thug Life" against a Holly Jolly background of pine trees and Glocks. We can only guess at the motive behind that bizarre decision, but what we can know with certainty is this: Somewhere in Moscow, in October of 2016, a Colonel named Vladimir Ruskovich-Vodkavski saw that shit cross his desk for approval, glanced over at the wall of medals he'd earned for dropping depth charges on the  Halibut and shooting dogs at Chernobyl, reached down for his service revolver, then gave a sigh of resignation and decided that he could repaint the mural of Lenin behind his desk with brain matter some other time.

That helped liquor sales near the Lubyanka, I'm sure, but it didn't help anyone win any elections anywhere on Earth. For talking heads who didn't understand how election cycles work in two-party dominant states, or the difference between polling numbers in the general population and the population who actually voted, though, it meshed neatly with the Trump campaign's Russia scandal. That meant story after story about how Cl. Ruskovich-Vodkavski had colluded with Facebook to ensure the death of democracy and the rise of a new, Fascist global order, along with a pressing need for social media companies to do something to separate themselves from both hyperbolic news stories about a second Holocaust targeting Muslims, and the more realistic risk of the Trump administration becoming unpopular after doing shit stupid. Ironically, considering that the actual goal of the limited 2016 interference campaign seemed to be spreading distrust in the elections process, it probably also netted the Colonel a new medal with the doge meme on it. One that he had to put in the desk and never glance at, because something in the eyes of that Shiba Inu brought back memories from a warm late spring day in a village far to the North of Kyiv, near the border with the Belarussian SSR. A place that reeked only of blooming flowers, not of ashes, where the hundred year old houses and the even older walls of an Ultra-Orthodox synagogue were being bulldozed and prepared for interment under the blood-stained soil, under the Cesium-tainted soil, of what he'd grown up calling "Little Russia" in his childhood bedroom on the fourth floor of a housing block, studying the fall of the Black Army during those cold, dark Murmansk winters. Where the puppies came up whimpering for food, their eyes so full of joy at the sight of the first humans they'd seen since the days after the night when a corner of the reactor had reached prompt criticality, a sound that only they'd heard here, and then only as a distant pop. Those puppies, there were four in all...

Anyway, saying that they were doing something to address misinformation was the obvious solution. Not, like, actually doing anything, because misinformation was both too lucrative and too hard to actually deal with. Just saying that they were. The same AI innovations that had led to the problem in the first place presented an obvious solution, automatically flagging posts that involved keywords associated with conspiracy theories or known, widespread falsehood, and linking articles by political fact checkers (or, in the case of YouTube, sometimes just Wikipedia, which probably seemed more neutral). Twitter/X decided to allow community notes instead, effectively outsourcing decisions about what and how to fact check. Overall, though, the outcome was the same. A simple, easy to ignore link would be affixed to anything controversial, so it could be allowed to remain on the site without the site itself being blamed for inaccuracies. Unless something rose to the level of libel, or was proven to be the direct creation of a content farm, it would still be there to drive engagement. The Covid-19 Pandemic, 2020 Election claims, and January 6th, 2021 riots gave a perfect opportunity to very visibly expand the scope of fact-checking programs, but it would have realistically been scaled up in advance of the 2024 election, anyway, along with more serious and less public efforts to avoid something like a Cambridge Analytica redux.

Ultimately, it's just an effort to avoid public opinion shifts that might favor legislation regulating what sort of content a website can host and under what circumstances it can do that without facing legal repercussions, because a lot of misinformation does come initially from foreign sources now, who know that it's factually untrue. Especially outside of election years, their end game is usually just making money, but regulators can still use the threat of outside interference in domestic politics to promote bills that are ultimately intended to serve the needs of IP protection firms rather than the general public. As soon as public opinion turned against its fact checkers, Facebook started looking for alternate options, which says a lot about how much of a fuck social media companies actually give.

Getting your news from your feed on Facebook or Twitter is retarded, whether you're on the Right or the Left, and fact checking doesn't help. Especially if the misinformation is coming from the Left, but that's a complicated topic that deserves a lot more time than I have for it right now.
 
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The fundamental problem is that we live in a world of dual truths. A Trump voter will automatically dismiss anything that a fact checker claims and vice versa. If people can not agree on basic facts, then at what chance can any agreement be found? For the exact reason, probably the internet more than anything, though there are probably plenty of factors. The internet naturally divides people into groups, and exposes them only to what they want to see.
Similar to how atheists rejected fundies only to flock to something equally as insane, right-wingers reject the authority figures that whored themselves out, only to substitute it with their own lunatics and cults.
 
I think people in this thread have made a lot of good points. Myself I wouldn’t discount the role of mass schooling as setting the groundwork. That being said, I think there is also some truth to earlier posters lamenting about most people being “niggercattle”. Well, we can’t all be experts in everything. We do need a priestly class to summarise key outcomes to us. The proliferation of data in today’s “information age” has only created a plethora of additional fields which in their totality overwhelm the ability of an individual to develop a deep expertise. This does necessitate a kind of “priestly class” of science communicators. The problem in recent years has been the “trust the science” zealots and the emergency of crackdowns on “anti-science” heresies.
 
I think people in this thread have made a lot of good points. Myself I wouldn’t discount the role of mass schooling as setting the groundwork. That being said, I think there is also some truth to earlier posters lamenting about most people being “niggercattle”. Well, we can’t all be experts in everything. We do need a priestly class to summarise key outcomes to us. The proliferation of data in today’s “information age” has only created a plethora of additional fields which in their totality overwhelm the ability of an individual to develop a deep expertise. This does necessitate a kind of “priestly class” of science communicators. The problem in recent years has been the “trust the science” zealots and the emergency of crackdowns on “anti-science” heresies.
"Jack of all trades, master of none"
 
if you push it too hard you lose your credibility, for example jews calling everything antisemitism, most people don't anymore. Same with the Southern Poverty Law Center, they became too political and pro LGBT+ to a ridiculous degree so now you don't know if the "hate group" are a bunch of actual nazis or some catholic group that is against transition of children. If you went and bought these services and made them more extreme they would lose a lot of users.
 
Anyone who tries telling you what the truth is should be ignored and mocked. "fact checkers" are just as gay as "influencers" and both should be fired into the sun.

I believe this requires an explanation: fact checkers, debunkers and peer-reviewing are a great tool for us to be grounded in reality, in order to not believe in myths, half-truths and tall tales and other weird things that people may come up with. Examples include "Bigfoot sightings", but I'm sure many knew this.
Why is this an issue? Every culture around the world believes in myths and tales - usually of cryptids or strange legends, passed down over hundreds, or thousands of years.
It's one thing for some fat neckbeard faggot to "ackshually, SOURCE?!?!?!?" online, and another thing entirely to dismiss myths and tales as something negative, evil or damaging.
 
It's leftists hijacking and corrupting what used to be respectable institutions to push their deranged worldview.

People can accuse normies of being niggercattle, and they'd be correct, but ultimately many of them (and us) grew up in a world where the aforementioned institutions had earned the public's trust, and what their experts said carried weight.

People trust the science (bigot!) because until a decade or two ago the science (mostly) worked. When the nerd in the white lab coat came onto the TV and told you something, the expectation was that he is correct.

Leftists weaponized this trust and are using it against Western native populations to push their destructive agenda, in the process also eroding the capabilities of these institutions and the trust people place in them.

And they "have" to do this because leftist ideology is untenable and so in conflict with reality it cannot survive against even the mildest of pushbacks.
 
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Anyone who tries telling you what the truth is should be ignored and mocked. "fact checkers" are just as gay as "influencers" and both should be fired into the sun.


Why is this an issue? Every culture around the world believes in myths and tales - usually of cryptids or strange legends, passed down over hundreds, or thousands of years.
It's one thing for some fat neckbeard faggot to "ackshually, SOURCE?!?!?!?" online, and another thing entirely to dismiss myths and tales as something negative, evil or damaging.
I meant more as something "Oh hey I found bigfoot!" or something to swindle people with what can be called "snake oil" (perhaps this is an apples x oranges scenario - if so, apologies).

So I could imagine "fact checkers, or perhaps an empiric testing" could come to drive such money grabbers away. Yet, it seems like it gave rise to those annoying fucking douches that go, like you said, "ERM SOURCE?!? PEER REVIEWED BY 5 DIFFERENT ORGANISATIONS?!??!?!?!?!?".
It's leftists hijacking and corrupting what used to be respectable institutions to push their deranged worldview.

People can accuse normies of being niggercattle, and they'd be correct, but ultimately many of them (and us) grew up in a world where the aforementioned institutions had earned the public's trust, and what their experts said carried weight.

People trust the science (bigot!) because until a decade or two ago the science (mostly) worked. When the nerd in the white lab coat came onto the TV and told you something, the expectation was that he is correct.

Leftists weaponized this trust and are using it against Western native populations to push their destructive agenda, in the process also eroding the capabilities of these institutions and the trust people place in them.

And they "have" to do this because leftist ideology is untenable and so in conflict with reality it cannot survive against even the mildest of pushbacks.
Pretty much. And true scientists, doctors, et al. who still honour their profession are probably the ones who are the saddest with this.
 
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I meant more as something "Oh hey I found bigfoot!" or something to swindle people with what can be called "snake oil" (perhaps this is an apples x oranges scenario - if so, apologies).

So I could imagine "fact checkers, or perhaps an empiric testing" could come to drive such money grabbers away. Yet, it seems like it gave rise to those annoying fucking douches that go, like you said, "ERM SOURCE?!? PEER REVIEWED BY 5 DIFFERENT ORGANISATIONS?!??!?!?!?!?".
I'm right with you there. The grifters are just as disgusting as the source-wankers.
 
I'm right with you there. The grifters are just as disgusting as the source-wankers.
Cheers, man. The main "force" that drove me to create this thread was the... thick-headedness of the "PEER REVIEW/SOURCE?!?!?" people who call themselves "enlightened/free thinkers" of society. They did learn about empiricism and how it is important to not believe everything that others tell you (good). Yet, at the same time, they somehow fell for a dramatic thing where they don't believe anything other than their own worldview - something in which I have never seen at any other point in history.

Like I mentioned at a reply, probably because we have information at the palm of our hands, and thus every person became their own "priestly class", which in turn is dominated by a "shadowy priestly class" (shall we say) that they became obtuse retards. I don't know if I am making too much sense here.

EDIT: Perhaps the "Enlightenment" era brought us some of this, which can be blamed. Every since there was an emancipation of the people and an idea for each person to think (which I think is a neutral idea, really - people being free, I don't see that being a bad thing), it gave us good ideas, as well as bad ideas in which we are seeing the fruits of the labour (French Revolution?) and ESPECIALLY its consequences for 250 years, give or take. And it has steadily been going downhill. But this is something for another thread, I think.
 
Cheers, man. The main "force" that drove me to create this thread was the... thick-headedness of the "PEER REVIEW/SOURCE?!?!?" people who call themselves "enlightened/free thinkers" of society. They did learn about empiricism and how it is important to not believe everything that others tell you (good). Yet, at the same time, they somehow fell for a dramatic thing where they don't believe anything other than their own worldview - something in which I have never seen at any other point in history.

Like I mentioned at a reply, probably because we have information at the palm of our hands, and thus every person became their own "priestly class", which in turn is dominated by a "shadowy priestly class" (shall we say) that they became obtuse retards. I don't know if I am making too much sense here.

EDIT: Perhaps the "Enlightenment" era brought us some of this, which can be blamed. Every since there was an emancipation of the people and an idea for each person to think (which I think is a neutral idea, really - people being free, I don't see that being a bad thing), it gave us good ideas, as well as bad ideas in which we are seeing the fruits of the labour (French Revolution?) and ESPECIALLY its consequences for 250 years, give or take. And it has steadily been going downhill. But this is something for another thread, I think.
Excellent post and thread. The priest and enlightenment comparison is perfect. Holier than thou source-wankers with their own 'bible' in their hands, looking down at their noses at others.

Another thunk for another thread is how people recognise that fiction and reality are two worlds, but they don't recognise that fiction isn't real. That leads to the 'source' shit being more frustrating because they won't accept that fiction, made-up statistics and polls based on no evidence in the background other than "X amount of french people believe 90% of chocolate comes from trees". It's based on nothing and doesn't hold up to real life logic, yet because it can exist in fiction, they believe it can happen. Thunk for another thread.
 
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