What is courage? - Was Omar Mateen courageous?

[AA 102]

Essentially, a foul goat fucking inbred pustule coward saw the bar set by the foul goat fucking inbred pustule cowards before him, and decided to limbo under it to the tune of the Islamic Call to Prayer. His erection could have caused a bit of drama height wise, if only it were bigger than a midget's small toe.

I'm sorry but this always bothered me. How was this guy a coward? Last I checked cowards stayed at home and hid rather than fight. It takes a lot of balls to waltz into somewhere with a gun, mow down a shit ton of people, and not even expect to make it out alive. I'm not saying he was brave or right for doing what he did, but he certainly wasn't a coward.

Hell, he even went out with a bang when he tried to 1 v 100 the cops. A coward would have surrendered.

 

[autisticdragonkin]

I'm sorry but this always bothered me. How was this guy a coward? Last I checked cowards stayed at home and hid rather than fight. It takes a lot of balls to waltz into somewhere with a gun, mow down a shit ton of people, and not even expect to make it out alive. I'm not saying he was brave or right for doing what he did, but he certainly wasn't a coward.

It is a way that people try to cope with the reality that terrorists are simultaenously evil and in possession of an exceptional virtue. There is some debate in virtue ethics as to whether virtue is able to be present even when it is used for evil. Some consider virtue to be a sort of all or nothing thing and others consider it to be irrelevant. I am of the latter school of thought and consider it to be like the sharpness of a knife. A knife needs to be sharp in order to cut but it can be used to cut food or people when it is sharp. I think that he was virtuous and it was a waste of his life to die as the 50th victim of this attack rather than to do something positive in the world with his courage

 

[glass_houses]

I'm sorry but this always bothered me. How was this guy a coward? Last I checked cowards stayed at home and hid rather than fight. It takes a lot of balls to waltz into somewhere with a gun, mow down a shit ton of people, and not even expect to make it out alive. I'm not saying he was brave or right for doing what he did, but he certainly wasn't a coward.

EDIT: Hell, he even went out with a bang when he tried to 1 v 100 the cops. A coward would have surrendered.

He walked into a place full of blind people who couldn't run, couldn't defend themselves, had no fucking clue what was going on, who'd never wronged him or hell, never even heard of him before, and opened fire. I think that's pretty much the definition of a coward.

EDIT: And instead of owning up to his actions, standing up and proclaiming himself a warrior of Islam to the entire world, he killed himself so he'd never face justice or have to look into the eyes of the people who'd loved his victims.

 

[AA 102]

He walked into a place full of blind people who couldn't run, couldn't defend themselves, had no fucking clue what was going on, who'd never wronged him or hell, never even heard of him before, and opened fire. I think that's pretty much the definition of a coward.

According to the dictionary a coward is:
-A person who lacks the courage to do or endure dangerous or unpleasant things (because I guess going on a mass shooting isn't a dangerous thing to do in this country)
-Excessively afraid of danger or pain (again, he tried to 1 v 100 the cops)
-(of an animal) depicted with the tail between the hind legs (I'm 90% confident he was at full mast while doing this)

 

[autisticdragonkin]

He walked into a place full of blind people who couldn't run, couldn't defend themselves, had no fucking clue what was going on, who'd never wronged him or hell, never even heard of him before, and opened fire. I think that's pretty much the definition of a coward.

How is it cowardice?
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cowardice

• : fear that makes you unable to do what is right or expected : lack of courage

From his perspective he was very much doing what was right and expected of him (by ISIS)

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/cowardice

• lack of courage to face danger, difficulty, opposition, pain, etc.

he was facing all 4

 

[glass_houses]

It is a way that people try to cope with the reality that terrorists are simultaenously evil and in possession of an exceptional virtue. There is some debate in virtue ethics as to whether virtue is able to be present even when it is used for evil. Some consider virtue to be a sort of all or nothing thing and others consider it to be irrelevant. I am of the latter school of thought and consider it to be like the sharpness of a knife. A knife needs to be sharp in order to cut but it can be used to cut food or people when it is sharp. I think that he was virtuous and it was a waste of his life to die as the 50th victim of this attack rather than to do something positive in the world with his courage

Okay. So if I were a seven foot, muscle bound, black belt in every mainstream martial art with a few obscure ones as well, and I snuck up behind you while you were sitting in your own backyard having a quiet rum and coke before bed, lights off, thoroughly chill, and proceeded to beat you to death with a two-by-four, I'd be a brave man and a warrior provided I shouted, "PRAISE ALLAH HE OF THE MAGIC COCK!" While I was doing it.

Gotcha.

 

[AA 102]

Okay. So if I were a seven foot, muscle bound, black belt in every mainstream martial art with a few obscure ones as well, and I snuck up behind you while you were sitting in your own backyard having a quiet rum and coke before bed, lights off, thoroughly chill, and proceeded to beat you to death with a two-by-four, I'd be a brave man and a warrior provided I shouted, "PRAISE ALLAH HE OF THE MAGIC COCK!" While I was doing it.

Gotcha.

No, you wouldn't be a brave warrior, you'd be a cunt.

Also he didn't kill himself, the police killed him after he charged out of the club and opened fire on them (granted he only got a few shots off before he was mulched by gunfire).

 

[glass_houses]

No, you wouldn't be a brave warrior, you'd be a cunt.

Precisely.

He was not a brave man. He took a machine gun into a crowd of helpless, unknowing people and started shooting. A machine gun fires hundreds of bullets a minute. How the hell were any of them able to defend themselves? Or even know what was going on before the blood and brains started spraying about? A warrior, a brave man, fights against a powerful foe. A coward targets helpless people and tells himself he's brave when not a single one has the ability to fight him back.

 

[AA 102]

Precisely.

He was not a brave man. He took a machine gun into a crowd of helpless, unknowing people and started shooting. A machine gun fires hundreds of bullets a minute. How the hell were any of them able to defend themselves? Or even know what was going on before the blood and brains started spraying about? A warrior, a brave man, fights against a powerful foe. A coward targets helpless people and tells himself he's brave when not a single one has the ability to fight him back.

Yeah, I wish you read the part of my first post where I said he wasn't brave. I'm just saying he wasn't a coward. This is not a black and white "either he was a coward or he was brave" situation. That just feels like a logical fallacy in itself.

 

[autisticdragonkin]

Okay. So if I were a seven foot, muscle bound, black belt in every mainstream martial art with a few obscure ones as well, and I snuck up behind you while you were sitting in your own backyard having a quiet rum and coke before bed, lights off, thoroughly chill, and proceeded to beat you to death with a two-by-four, I'd be a brave man and a warrior provided I shouted, "PRAISE ALLAH HE OF THE MAGIC COCK!" While I was doing it.

Gotcha.

There is no courage or cowardice involved in that because all that is significant in this is your lack of moral judgement. If you on the other hand saw an utterly hopeless situation for the world but decided to fight for justice anyways launching an attack against the source of evil in the world knowing fully that you are facing certain death but doing it anyways in the hope that you can make a small contribution to a better future then you are courageous. That is what all spree killers including Omar Mateen, Elliot Rodger, and Anders Behring Breivik all see themselves as. It may be delusional but that is a different part of the cognitive process and the courage is still present there with many who adhere to the same ideologies not having the courage (most of lookism.net). It is a separate thing from their ideologies and clearly part of their characters and it makes them far more effective people at doing what they decide to do regardless of what the decision is.

If he just killed the people with no moral motivation at all and just wanted to kill people for fun then he probably wouldn't be categorized as courageous but I still wouldn't call him a coward

 

[glass_houses]

Yeah, I wish you read the part of my first post where I said he wasn't brave. I'm just saying he wasn't a coward. This is not a black and white "either he was a coward or he was brave" situation. That just feels like a logical fallacy in itself.

Trust me: when you're stacking up the corpses, things appear very black and white. And also red all over, and kind of squishy too.

No, I'm fucking serious. He was a coward. He was nothing but a coward. He found easy targets, who, if some of the media reports are to believed, trusted him and believed him to be their friend, made certain that they couldn't escape and then hit them with a weapon that they had no possible way of defending themselves against. He took a bomb in there to maximise his body count, how are you supposed fight against a bomb? And then he committed suicide. Committing suicide isn't an act of bravery. It is a way of slithering out of guilt and shame, of not having to see the pain of the ones who loved his victims.

Murdering the helpless is never brave. Ever. If he actually wanted to be brave, he'd have targeted a fully armed military parade in daylight. The only reason the goat fucker used guns and a bomb is because he couldn't find a well to poison.

 

[glass_houses]

I've just deleted an autistic derail about the definition of the word "coward" that doesn't belong here. Keep it to the actual event.

Sorry. Deleted my reply.

 

[autisticdragonkin]

Split from the orlando shooting thread which was being derailed by discussion of the definition of courage here is a thread dedicated to it (below are responses I made in the previous thread)

Trust me: when you're stacking up the corpses, things appear very black and white. And also red all over, and kind of squishy too.

No, I'm fucking serious. He was a coward. He was nothing but a coward. He found easy targets, who, if some of the media reports are to believed, trusted him and believed him to be their friend, made certain that they couldn't escape and then hit them with a weapon that they had no possible way of defending themselves against. He took a bomb in there to maximise his body count, how are you supposed fight against a bomb? And then he committed suicide. Committing suicide isn't an act of bravery. It is a way of slithering out of guilt and shame, of not having to see the pain of the ones who loved his victims.

Murdering the helpless is never brave. Ever. If he actually wanted to be brave, he'd have targeted a fully armed military parade in daylight. The only reason the goat fucker used guns and a bomb is because he couldn't find a well to poison.

Is a Navy Seal who engages in a dangerous infiltration mission to strike the enemy at their poorly defended locations a coward?

What about someone who uses a cyanide pill to prevent capture so that interrogators cannot learn what they know about future missions? (even if they are also wanting to avoid being tortured to death)

If American special forces are courageous when they do this then ISIS special forces are courageous when they do this

@dannyfrickenp

 

[AA 102]

I'm going to reiterate some thing I said before as well as touch up on a few things since this is a very nuanced viewpoint that can be taken the wrong way very easily.

The shooter, in this case I am referring specifically to Omar "Spray the Gay Away" Mateen, was neither a coward nor was he brave. It takes a ton of balls to go on a suicide mission, even if that mission is to commit a tragedy. He willingly stepped into a dangerous situation and was rightfully mulched by gunfire when he tried to 1 v 100 the police. Cowards do not do these things. Cowards will sacrifice their integrity and beliefs to save their own lives. However, he was not courageous. He was a cunt. The vast majority of the people he fired upon were unarmed and unable to fight back. But to Omar, these were not people, they were the enemy, something @autisticdragonkin has put better than I have.

 

[AnOminous]

If he believed he was going to be punished by society for what he did but immediately rewarded after his death, it wasn't courage because he was making a rational, if delusional choice to flee punishment in favor of personal pleasure.

 

[autisticdragonkin]

If he believed he was going to be punished by society for what he did but immediately rewarded after his death, it wasn't courage because he was making a rational, if delusional choice to flee punishment in favor of personal pleasure.

I doubt that people believe in the afterlife as much as they say. He probably only believed there was maybe a 50% chance that the afterlife existed and wouldn't have done it just for the afterlife had he not also seen it as a heroic action (but considering that it is divine command theory the difference isn't entirely clear)

 

[AA 102]

I doubt that people believe in the afterlife as much as they say. He probably only believed there was maybe a 50% chance that the afterlife existed and wouldn't have done it just for the afterlife had he not also seen it as a heroic action (but considering that it is divine command theory the difference isn't entirely clear)

I don't know, he seemed pretty damn sure to me given his actions. I mean, this was a religiously motivated attack and the only thing Abrahamic religions really have to sell you on is the promise of an afterlife, without that there would be no point in following them let alone dying for them.

 

[autisticdragonkin]

EDIT: And instead of owning up to his actions, standing up and proclaiming himself a warrior of Islam to the entire world, he killed himself so he'd never face justice or have to look into the eyes of the people who'd loved his victims.

If he had the expectation of a proper trial and not being subject to torture and potentially giving away other terrorists attacks in the process then I would agree with you but it only is about the suicide and not the rest of the act.

I don't know, he seemed pretty damn sure to me given his actions. I mean, this was a religiously motivated attack and the only thing Abrahamic religions really have to sell you on is the promise of an afterlife, without that there would be no point in following them let alone dying for them.

Judaism doesn't have an afterlife (or at least didn't have one until recently) and people still died for it. There is also the Abrahamic idea of honor and duty which could persuade someone to do something even with no reward just like Communism has martyrs.

 

[AA 102]

Judaism doesn't have an afterlife (or at least didn't have one until recently) and people still died for it.

Yeah but everyone hates the Jews, they kind of have to fight back or else Holocaust and stuff.

 

[autisticdragonkin]

Yeah but everyone hates the Jews, they kind of have to fight back or else Holocaust and stuff.

If they didn't have any honor they could have just denied their heritage forged genealogical records and joined the SS which allowed several Jews to escape persecution. That it was uncommon shows that many of them did place value on honor