WhatsApp And Signal Messages Not ‘Verifiably Private,’ Claims Telegram

  • 🐕 I am attempting to get the site runnning as fast as possible. If you are experiencing slow page load times, please report it.

Zak Doffman
Contributor


While the tech world has been iPad and Apple ad obsessed this week, a surprise battle has quietly broken out between some of the world’s leading messaging platforms, stoking fear, uncertainty and doubt for hundreds of millions of users.

“Telegram is notoriously insecure and routinely cooperates with governments behind the scenes while talking a big game about speech and privacy,” Signal President Meredith Whittaker has just posted on X, responding to Telegram’s astonishing claim that secure Signal messages can actually be compromised. “Even their limited opt-in (roll their own) encryption is sus. The more you know...”

1.png

This battle started—oddly enough—with Elon Musk posting to his 182 million X followers that “There are known vulnerabilities with Signal that are not being addressed. Seems odd...” This was in response to a City Journal report into alleged US government links to Signal and its board chair, NPR CEO Katherine Maher’s.

The article itself focused on the source of some of the initial investment into Signal, which “raises questions about the app’s origins and its relationship with government—in particular, with the American intelligence apparatus.” Similar links were alleged to Maher’s own government links across her career history.

2.png

For those of you not using Signal, it’s not only seen as a more secure alternative to WhatsApp, but its encryption protocol also underpins most other leading messaging platforms—WhatsApp, Facebook Messenger and Google Messages included. Of the mainstream end-to-end encrypted platforms, only iMessage sits outside its tent.

If Musk’s intervention was not wild enough, along came Twitter founder Jack Dorsey, who linked to the article and commented “did not know this,” to which Musk replied, “Yup, concerning.” At which point, nothing started to look a bit like something.

3.png

Signal’s Whittaker had already responded to Musk, telling him “we don’t have evidence of extant vulnerabilities, and haven’t been notified of anything. We follow responsible disclosure practices, and closely monitor security@signal.org + respond & fix any valid issues quickly. So if you do have more info hit us up! But beyond this...” She then also replied to Dorsey, “You can hate Maher, or love her. But the point here is that Signal is built so that no one—her, or anyone—can f*** with it without being caught and called out. That's our whole thing.”

Still nothing substantive beyond the original article. But then along came Telegram, which never misses an opportunity to take shots at its mainstream competition—remember the WhatsApp battle? Its founder Pavel Durov posted on his personal channel that “a story shared by Jack Dorsey, the founder of Twitter, uncovered that the current leaders of Signal, an allegedly ‘secure’ messaging app, are activists used by the US state department for regime change abroad.”

4.png
Durov raises the stakes
Telegram/Pavel Durov

Still just more inferences. But then Durov raised the stakes: “The US government spent $3M to build Signal’s encryption, and today the exact same encryption is implemented in WhatsApp, Facebook Messenger, Google Messages and even Skype. It looks almost as if big tech in the US is not allowed to build its own encryption protocols that would be independent of government interference. An alarming number of important people I’ve spoken to remarked that their ‘private’ Signal messages had been exploited against them in US courts or media. But whenever somebody raises doubt about their encryption, Signal’s typical response is ‘we are open source so anyone can verify that everything is all right’. That, however, is a trick.” And suddenly nothing was definitely something.

Signal doesn’t hold back—remember its own WhatsApp battle? Signal’s boss linked to a 2021 article claiming a bug in Telegram’s encryption that was quietly fixed with little press. “It's the most backdoor-looking bug I've ever seen... In text I can't do justice to the facial expressions of cryptographers when you mention Telegram's protocol, so just believe me that it's weird.”

And then “on Telegram's shady security history,” Whittaker shared past allegations into its own government links—but this time with Russia rather than the US.

5.png

Signal has tens of millions of its own users, but its encryption is relied upon by billions of users on other platforms. It is seen as the default for messaging end-to-end encryption, so much so that WhatsApp called it out as the glue it wants to underpin Europe’s DMA-inspired third-party chats.

Were there to be a backdoor of any sort in this protocol, the entire foundations of the secure messaging we all now rely on would crumble. There is no evidence to back this up—but in the cyber world, perception is every bit as important as reality. And this has the potential to become an issue.

6.png

“We're not asking you to take our word,” Whittaker said on Signal’s security. “We're developing in the open, enabling verification, and working with the security community to audit and attest to our code and the promises it keeps. That's the difference between Signal and the rest of the major messengers.”

And that open development and the fact the protocol is available to others and is so widely used is your comfort blanket. Telegram is different. Whether or not its alleged government links are true—and let’s assume given the politics that they’re not.

7.png

Telegram is not as private and secure as an end-to-end encrypted messenger—that’s not an opinion, it’s just based on the application of the cryptography. Putting aside Telegram’s shift to the mainstream, it remains a shadowy, even quasi-dark web platform that appeals to black marketeers, criminals and terrorists. Again—this has all been widely covered, and perhaps an open argument such as this helps.

“Telegram is the only massively popular messaging service that allows everyone to make sure that all of its apps indeed use the same open source code that is published on Github,” Durov posted. “For the past ten years, Telegram Secret Chats have remained the only popular method of communication that is verifiably private.”

Unfortunately, those secret chats are not on by default and only work 1:1. And while the argument on varying levels of open-source access is important, the application of verifiable encryption is more important. And that’s what Signal provides.

So no, you don’t need to quit Signal or any of the other platforms relying on its encryption, but if you’re using Telegram as a daily messenger, then Signal is just the latest voice to give you reason to consider switching to something else.
 
Ya think? Ya think? Ya fucking think?

Jesus Fucking Christ.

Now pay attention. ANYTHING that goes out over electromagnetic waves can be intercepted and exploited. ANYTHING.

Got it?

Not only that, just because you might use a landline doesn't mean it cannot be tapped or parts of the conversation going over VoIP can't be intercepted and exploited.

Encrypted? Ya REALLY think so? Good chance at least some of those encryption protocols/operating systems have back doors built into them.

The good news - as much as some folks like to think to the contrary, the average person's communications, while they can be intercepted, aren't worth exploiting. Just not important enough to 'them'.
 
Signal client is FOSS isn't it? When it comes to E2EE it doesn't matter who is behind it or what the server looks like/does as long as the client is good enough.
The United States Government kills people based on metadata. Any Free Software client with a proprietary server is bullshit.
 
The United States Government kills people based on metadata. Any Free Software client with a proprietary server is bullshit.
the entire point of e2ee is that you don't need to know what's between your client and the receiving client. There's no real way to tell if the server is good or not but if the encryption is secure it doesn't matter.
besides, if the feds dont like you that much it doesn't matter how good your encryption is. They'll just raid your house and ""find"" some child porn on your computer or something.
 
the entire point of e2ee is that you don't need to know what's between your client and the receiving client. There's no real way to tell if the server is good or not but if the encryption is secure it doesn't matter.
besides, if the feds dont like you that much it doesn't matter how good your encryption is. They'll just raid your house and ""find"" some child porn on your computer or something.
Lol people that say that are usually degenerates who actually consume CP
 
Encrypted? Ya REALLY think so? Good chance at least some of those encryption protocols/operating systems have back doors built into them.
I can encrypt something with AES-256 myself, email the ciphertext to somebody over insecure networks, and it's not likely to be cracked by anybody even if I was a target. Maybe it could be cracked by a quantum computer later, but quantum-resistant cryptography is already in development and people will swich to it before we get to that point.

There are algorithms that were used well past their prime, the NSA hires a lot of mathematicians to find and hoard weaknesses in encryption schemes, and they managed to get Dual_EC_DRBG into the wild. But it doesn't mean that you can't encrypt something with reasonable confidence that it will be secure.

These centralized messaging apps could be completely secure end-to-end at this point, but there's always pressure for them not to be, and they are collecting enough info to be more convenient to use but cause you problems, such as your phone number or what chat rooms you're in.

Telegram Reportedly “Ready to Fight Piracy” According to (Malaysian) Govt. Official (archive)
 
Unfortunately, even though Signal is more secure than Telegram, this is ultimately a case of Norm Macdonald. Chairman of Signal, Katherine Maher, has links to Liz-Fong Jones. I've also posted an article about her (referenced in this article).
I wouldn't mind using a tranny related app if it's proven to be most secure and I am in need of such high level of privacy. Like if you were a dissident in Saudi or something.
For most people that have their transgressions amount to saying nigger, I assume TG is private enough if correctly used.
 
Still just more inferences. But then Durov raised the stakes: “The US government spent $3M to build Signal’s encryption, and today the exact same encryption is implemented in WhatsApp, Facebook Messenger, Google Messages and even Skype. It looks almost as if big tech in the US is not allowed to build its own encryption protocols that would be independent of government interference.
Late as fuck, but I'm never going to pass up on the chance to relink Phil Zimmerman.

 
The United States Government kills people based on metadata.
Yes, and? Outside of Resistance Leader LARP fantasies, your metadata is lived in the real world too, in ways that are much easier for the glowies to pick up on if they so choose. If they want to find a woman's children, are they going to pick apart E2EE traffic to see what kind of messaging patterns she had on Mother's Day, or just look up the birth records, driver's licenses, tax records, property records, etc?

I mean, if you are a beardy Afghan mullah hiding from Dronebama in a cave, and your E2EE chat patterns are literally the only thing they can get on you, then sure, maybe you need to worry a bit more.
 
Is Session secure? Can it be alternative to Signal?
I've been trying Session. The software itself has some rough edges. Notifications are especially bad. If you want to do a voice call with someone, whoever is receiving the call basically needs to have Session pulled up and unlock in the foreground, otherwise the whole thing won't work.

Is it secure? Don't know. The architecture seems pretty fucking smart. I'll probably switch to it when the software matures a bit more.
 
Back