UN X fails to avoid Australia child safety fine by arguing Twitter doesn’t exist - Elon Musk merging Twitter into X didn't absolve X from child safety fine.

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Elon Musk's X (formerly Twitter) remains on the hook for an approximately $400,000 fine after failing to respond to an Australia eSafety Commission 2023 inquiry, which largely sought to probe measures X is currently taking to combat an alleged proliferation of child sexual abuse material (CSAM) on its platform.

To void the fine, X tried to persuade Australian Judge Michael Wheelahan that X had no obligation to comply with an Online Safety Act notice issued to Twitter because Twitter "ceased to exist" a few weeks after receiving the notice—when Musk merged the app into his company X Corp.

Wheelahan summarized X's argument as saying that "X Corp was not obliged to prepare any report in Twitter Inc’s place, as X Corp was not the same person as the provider to whom the notice was issued."

But Wheelahan ruled Friday that the fine should be upheld, rejecting the "bare premise" that X assumed no legal responsibility to respond to the notice after Twitter ceased to exist.
X's argument failed because Wheelahan found that under Nevada law, merging Twitter into X turned Twitter into a "constituent entity," which then transferred all of Twitter's legal consequences to X Corp.

In his order, Wheelahan devoted a decent chunk of time to calling out testimony from X's expert on commercial business law, Scott Bogatz, as "molded to support the conclusions he expressed in his report."

Particularly "superficial" and requiring "leaps of logic," Wheelahan wrote, was Bogatz's attempts to persuade the court that the meaning of "liabilities" in Nevada merger law strictly applied to financial liabilities.

"It is clear under Nevada Law that the term ‘liability’ refers to monetary obligations," Bogatz had argued in court, but Wheelahan did not find this persuasive.

"I cannot accept this evidence without a much better explanation of Mr. Bogatz’s path of reasoning," Wheelahan wrote.

Wheelahan emphasized that the Nevada merger law specifically stipulated that "all debts, liabilities, obligations and duties of the Company shall thenceforth remain with or be attached to, as the case may be, the Acquiror and may be enforced against it to the same extent as if it had incurred or contracted all such debts, liabilities, obligations, and duties." And Bogatz's testimony failed to "grapple with the significance" of this, Wheelahan said.

Overall, Wheelahan considered Bogatz's testimony on X's merger-acquired liabilities "strained," while deeming the government's US merger law expert Alexander Pyle to be "honest and ready to make appropriate concessions," even while some of his testimony was "not of assistance."

Luckily, it seemed that Wheelahan had no trouble drawing his own conclusion after analyzing Nevada's merger law.

"I find that a Nevada court would likely hold that the word 'liabilities'" in the merger law "is broad enough on its proper construction under Nevada law to encompass non-pecuniary liabilities, such as the obligation to respond to the reporting notice," Wheelahan wrote. "X Corp has therefore failed to show that it was not required to respond to the reporting notice."

Because X "failed on all its claims," the social media company must cover costs from the appeal, and X's costs in fighting the initial fine will seemingly only increase from here.

Fighting fine likely to more than double X costs​

In a press release celebrating the ruling, eSafety Commissioner Julie Inman Grant criticized X's attempt to use the merger to avoid complying with Australia's Online Safety Act.

"Had X Corp’s argument been accepted by the Court, it could have set the concerning precedent that a foreign company’s merger with another foreign company might enable it to avoid regulatory obligations in Australia," Inman Grant warned.

X has been on thin ice with Inman Grant since it responded to the initial 30-question inquiry into how the platform is monitoring and removing CSAM by leaving many questions blank. X then seemingly stalled, delaying responding to subsequent inquiries asking the company to either fill in the blanks or explain why it was unable to answer the questions.

So, when X refused to pay the non-compliance fine last October, Inman Grant seemingly had enough. She soon commenced an additional proceeding in December, this time "seeking the imposition of civil penalties," Wheelahan noted. And that can now move forward, as "the further progress of the civil penalty proceeding" has been awaiting the outcome of Wheelahan's ruling this week, the judge said.

There's little chance that eSafety will drop the civil proceeding. In the press release, eSafety confirmed that the commission "takes compliance with transparency notices seriously and looks forward to ensuring alleged non-compliance is adequately addressed."

According to an Australian government review of the Online Safety Act, X could owe civil penalties up to approximately $530,000 for failing to comply with the reporting notice, potentially more than doubling its costs after fighting the initial fine.

X might have been better off sharing more information on how it's fighting CSAM. Inman Grant reiterated Friday that eSafety is not just targeting X, but all Big Tech platforms failing to be transparent about steps taken to respond to CSAM.

“eSafety remains committed to exercising provisions available under the Online Safety Act to hold all tech companies to account without fear or favor, ensuring they comply with the laws of Australia and prioritize the safety and wellbeing of all Australians,” Inman Grant said.

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Big tech companies claiming to have difficulties essentially eliminating this kind of material on their platforms are lying, blatantly so. Sending muh coof disinformation harmful to black and trans lives to the shadow realm basically as it was still uploading seemed pretty easy for all of them.

The reason why they don't, given the above? It's a business model with places like instagram and snapchat being among the most egregious offenders.
 
Is Musk an Australian citizen? If not why would he have to give a single shit about this?
If the company refuses to pay fines they'll come down on them with more severe penalties up to and including shutting any local subsidiaries and infrastructure down. Or simply block the website in its entirety.

I wouldn't be too happy allowing an Australian company to operate in the US if it racked up a bunch of fines and didn't pay them. That's nothing but corporate extraterritoriality, saying they are superior to the laws of a sovereign nation and its people. If you don't like a country's laws, don't do business there.
 
If the company refuses to pay fines they'll come down on them with more severe penalties up to and including shutting any local subsidiaries and infrastructure down. Or simply block the website in its entirety.
I'm thinking quite specifically of the demands NZ made to Null over the Christchurch bullshit. If the owner of KF can tell a foreign government to fuck itself due to being an american citizen I see no reason logically that Musk would need to capitulate to this ridiculous bullshit that's directly related.
 
I'm thinking quite specifically of the demands NZ made to Null over the Christchurch bullshit. If the owner of KF can tell a foreign government to fuck itself due to being an american citizen I see no reason logically that Musk would need to capitulate to this ridiculous bullshit that's directly related.
There's big differences between stifling free expression on a not-for-profit website and a for-profit corporation disregarding the laws set by the country they want to profit from. Null's support comes from individual freewill donations, not advertising or fees charged as a condition to access the site.
 
There's big differences between stifling free expression on a not-for-profit website and a for-profit corporation disregarding the laws set by the country they want to profit from. Null's support comes from individual donations, not advertising or fees charged to access the site.
I think selling merch counts as "for-profit". As well he's tried advertising before if I'm not mistaken.

You're not selling me on this idea very well that Musk needs Australia more than Australia needs him. What functionally does he lose by telling them to go eat shit and ban Twitter? More people in Australia would be fucking livid at having Twitter get banned by their government over this complete horseshit than it'd be worth, I'd think, if he called that bluff. As well Australia is a country with a population of... twenty-seven million.

Again I'd like a reason that isn't him going along with this because of muh international market. I see no reason he can't do what Null did instead of setting the precedent that people and companies must obey laws of governments they're not privy to the jurisdiction of solely because it's the internet. Which is what the point of this exercise is, if you haven't noticed.
 
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I'm thinking quite specifically of the demands NZ made to Null over the Christchurch bullshit. If the owner of KF can tell a foreign government to fuck itself due to being an american citizen I see no reason logically that Musk would need to capitulate to this ridiculous bullshit that's directly related.
Twitter (X) has a physical presence in Australia. They've got offices and employees and such. They are subject to Australian laws so long as they have locations operating there. Null neither owns nor operates any website, business, or organization within New Zealand. They therefore have no legal jurisdiction to tell Null what to do. The Kiwi government mistook this forum for a New Zealander website is all that happened.
 
I think selling merch counts as "for-profit". As well he's tried advertising before if I'm not mistaken.
That's a lot different from a multibillion dollar social media corporation. They're not even remotely the same.

You're not selling me on this idea very well that Musk needs Australia more than Australia needs him. What functionally does he lose by telling them to go eat shit and ban Twitter? More people in Australia would be fucking livid at having Twitter get banned by their government over this complete horseshit than it'd be worth, I'd think, if he called that bluff. As well Australia is a country with a population of... twenty-seven million.
Do you think Chinese or Indian companies should be able to break American laws without consequences? After all there's 8x as many of them as there are Americans.

Again I'd like a reason that isn't him going along with this because of muh international market. I see no reason he can't do what Null did instead of setting the precedent that people and companies must obey laws of governments they're not privy to the jurisdiction of solely because it's the internet. Which is what the point of this exercise is, if you haven't noticed.
He can do whatever he wants, they have the right to tell him to fuck off and be banned in their country. I don't think Musk deserves some special exemption vs. the Microsofts, Googles and Apples of the world. He's every bit as bad as they are with the same weird transhumanist ideas, just presented in a different way to fool the rubes.
 
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Twitter (X) has a physical presence in Australia. They've got offices and employees and such. They are subject to Australian laws so long as they have locations operating there. Null neither owns nor operates any website, business, or organization within New Zealand. They therefore have no legal jurisdiction to tell Null what to do. The Kiwi government mistook this forum for a New Zealander website is all that happened.
Thank you for the explanation. That clarifies it a lot.
Do you think Chinese or Indian companies should be able to break American laws without consequences? After all there's 8x as many of them as there are Americans.
If by "without consequences" you mean 'consequences limited to fucking off and not doing business in the country' then yes actually, if the business isn't based in China or India, and the owners/operators of said businesses aren't american citizens. You get why it's not only retarded but dangerous to set a precedent that if you and your business are not physically present in a country, nor are you a citizen, that you are subject to their laws right?

Do you think American companies should be able to break Chinese Internet law(s) without consequences?
He can do whatever he wants, they have the right to tell him to fuck off and be banned in their country. I don't think Musk deserves some special exemption vs. the Microsofts, Googles and Apples of the world.
Who said anything about a special exemption? What got you to type that out?
He's every bit as bad as they are with the same weird transhumanist ideas, just presented in a different way to fool the rubes.
Ditto for this especially. Who the fuck said I like this nigger African American?
 
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Wheelahan emphasized that the Nevada merger law specifically stipulated that "all debts, liabilities, obligations and duties of the Company shall thenceforth remain with or be attached to, as the case may be, the Acquiror and may be enforced against it to the same extent as if it had incurred or contracted all such debts, liabilities, obligations, and duties." And Bogatz's testimony failed to "grapple with the significance" of this, Wheelahan said.
X's expert on commercial business law, Scott Bogatz
How does this so called expert fail on this?

Tangential to the article, but I wonder if he actually believed he was right, or if he was just trying to bullshit his way through.
 
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If by "without consequences" you mean 'consequences limited to fucking off and not doing business in the country' then yes actually, if the business isn't based in China or India, and the owners/operators of said businesses aren't american citizens. You get why it's not only retarded but dangerous to set a precedent that if you and your business are not physically present in a country, nor are you a citizen, that you are subject to their laws right?

Do you think American companies should be able to break Chinese Internet law(s) without consequences?
No, China has every right to fine them and censor them according to their own laws. If they don't like it, they need to completely stop doing business there. In fact in almost all cases they have to be registered with a local subsidiary to do business, otherwise the country has no ability to tax the revenues they earn.

What China doesn't have the right to do is to force their laws to be applied in other countries. If Elon doesn't want to pay this fine, he can leave the Australian market entirely.

Who said anything about a special exemption? What got you to type that out?
It is special treatment, unless you think other companies should be free to violate national sovereignty and break their laws without consequences. If Apple is fined by the Australian government for violating their laws, do they pay?

Ditto for this especially. Who the fuck said I like this nigger African American?
Not for you, there are just a lot of stupid people who think Elon Musk is a good guy or on "their side".
 
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It is special treatment, unless you think other companies should be free to break foreign laws without consequences.
Mind quoting the part of any of my posts in this thread where I said "without consequences"?
No, China has every right to fine them and censor them according to their own laws. If they don't like it, they need to completely stop doing business there. In fact in almost all cases they have to be registered with a local subsidiary to do business, otherwise the country has no ability to tax the revenues they earn.

What China doesn't have the right to do is to force their laws to be applied in other countries. If Elon doesn't want to pay this fine, he can leave the Australian market entirely.
Because I agree wholeheartedly with this right here. What I read this as was them attempting to force their laws to be applied on someone and their company who could feasibly just stop doing business in that country. @Gog & Magog did what I actually asked and gave me
a reason that isn't him going along with this because of muh international market.
 
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You're not selling me on this idea very well that Musk needs Australia more than Australia needs him. What functionally does he lose by telling them to go eat shit and ban Twitter? More people in Australia would be fucking livid at having Twitter get banned by their government over this complete horseshit than it'd be worth, I'd think, if he called that bluff. As well Australia is a country with a population of... twenty-seven million.
The fallout form this will be interesting, with so many businesses relying on big tech companies for essential business functions, at a certain point the economic damage and backlash from them pulling out is going to be a problem.
Individuals are more or less already forced to to things the way big tech wants for the sake of practicality, perhaps it will take nation-states facing the same fate for things to change, if that's even possible in the face of the competency crisis.
 
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Musk should physically pay them in pennies. Either delivered in mass or mailed individually in clam-shell packages.
 
THAT'S why he renamed it X?!

This is so stupid!
 
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