Evergrande Financial Panic - Corona is not the only Contagion China is exporting

If the rebel government on the mainland collapses I think Republic of China should sweep in and show why they are the rightful government.
Never going to happen. The Taiwanese have already established an identity apart from the mainlanders and don't want to hedge their fledgling liberal democracy for the possibility of ruling over a bunch of starving commies.

Maybe 30 years ago this could happen, but the Taiwanese are more closely aligned with Japan, SK, and the US than they are with the mainlanders these days. Especially since they have a good location for capitalizing on Trans-Pacific trade and the island itself is pretty rich in natural resources. Why bankrupt yourself with a reunification that's 20x worse than the German reunification when you could just continue to be the based Island Chinese that make microprocessors and sell lumber?
 
America's troops are tranny faggots, but we have way more SSBNs, so total war is advantage us.
 
It would depend largely on how the populace of china reacted to the economic melt down, If they choose civil disobedience or even outright rebellion then China might just devolve into a bunch of warring states over night. If however they choose even more blind subservience(which is what we all know will happen deep in our hearts) they could emerge onto the world stage rearing and ready to go with anyone and everyone who could potentially be exploited or pillaged for resources.

What success they would have in any military campaign I could not say. Competing propaganda machines make something as difficult to judge as military force and capability doubly hard to judge. Mutual destruction also has to be taken into account when discussing modern warfare, the mere existence of mutual destruction puts a wrench in any prior conventional warfare strategies(do you really want to storm Omaha beach if the Nazi's have a get out of jail free card in the form of mutual destruction as soon as you approach the German boarder?).

I'm not sure if the Chinese can improve their espionage network's more than their current level's, but I can assure you if the Chinese state survived intact there would be continued espionage, and possibly an increase.
The good thing is, Mutual Destruction in this case doesn’t even have to be nukes this time - I’d be willing to bet any country near China that has the capabilities has missiles ready to be pointed at the 3GD, as more of a “Just in Case”. They might as well just paint a bullseye on that thing if Xi the Pooh does anything more than posturing.
 
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The question was about the US debt. If the US debt is held by private Chinese citizens then there isn't an issue as you point out. If the US debt is held the the People's Republic of China and that goes under, who gets the debt then? Unless the PRC bought US debt then resold it as its own in which case the scenario is as you presented it.
I answered that question you retarded goatfucking numbskull. Wtf do you think ‘potential successor state’ refers to? Even if the country devolves into some tribal hellscape, there is always going to be a successor state recognized eventually, even if it’s just a bunch of college students LARPing in Beijing after forty years of civil war. Do I have to explain the entire fucking process to you in excruciating detail to get it through your thick, malformed skull?
 
The question was about the US debt. If the US debt is held by private Chinese citizens then there isn't an issue as you point out. If the US debt is held the the People's Republic of China and that goes under, who gets the debt then? Unless the PRC bought US debt then resold it as its own in which case the scenario is as you presented it.
A good example was during the french revolution, Didn't america tell the french to fuck off because we owed the money to the now headless king?
 
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I answered that question you exceptional goatfucking numbskull. Wtf do you think ‘potential successor state’ refers to? Even if the country devolves into some tribal hellscape, there is always going to be a successor state recognized eventually, even if it’s just a bunch of college students LARPing in Beijing after forty years of civil war. Do I have to explain the entire fucking process to you in excruciating detail to get it through your thick, malformed skull?
lol calm down
 
The question was about the US debt. If the US debt is held by private Chinese citizens then there isn't an issue as you point out. If the US debt is held the the People's Republic of China and that goes under, who gets the debt then? Unless the PRC bought US debt then resold it as its own in which case the scenario is as you presented it.
the new government would demand that america continue paying its debts and america would do so.
the only way we dont pay is if china breaks up into several nations after collapse, or the collapse is so bad, there is no nation there.
 
Almost always some country has to inherit that debt. It's worked like that for two hundred years, like it wasn't until 2014 that Britain even started paying off their World War I debt because before then they were paying off their debt from the Crimean War, Napoleonic Wars, and other 18th/19th century shit. IIRC the British still ARE paying back debts on the Napoleonic Wars. If China ceased to exist, then some post-Chinese country in East Asia basically has to legally be China for the sake of international law (and given how China works, some country would demand to become China and try and reunify with the others either diplomatically or by force).
Seems like the US was smart to demand immediate payment on Lend-Lease debt then... The Brits zeroed the balance on that in 2006.
A good example was during the french revolution, Didn't america tell the french to fuck off because we owed the money to the now headless king?
We did, they took that news rather poorly, and after a non-declared war that wound up driving us closer to the British we finally cut a deal with Napoleon.
 
There is one major detail not mentioned is China never repay their Lend-lease debt to the United States and for reasons the pre-Nixon U.S. Government never bothered to collect on it. Given the USSR even during the hottest parts of the Cold War made payments on the Lend-lease debt it owed to the U.S. and United Kingdom. This is an elephant in the room that will have to be addressed cause as long as CCP continues to not make payments on it. There goes any arguments that the United States can collect on any other debt owed to it by the CCP.
 
Evergrande continues to shamble along, narrowly paying their second interest payment for $47.5 million dollars. Reminder that they're $300 billion in debt.

(archive)

If you're not quite getting the scale of how much of a shitshow this is, then consider this: Evergrande's owner Hui Ka Yan has a net worth of $7.8 billion that Chinese authorities recently 'asked' him to consider using to pay off the Evergrande debt. Suppose they wring him for literally all he's worth, so they still need to find the lion's share of $292.2 billion somewhere to convince skeptical investors and authorities that they're totally not a Ponzi scheme. $292.2 billion has this many zeros:

292,200,000,000

And the make-or-break bond repayment that they made in just the nick of time yesterday, by wracking their brains and coming up with some Hail Mary funding? That only has this many zeros:

___,_47,500,000

Yeah.
 
Evergrande continues to shamble along, narrowly paying their second interest payment for $47.5 million dollars. Reminder that they're $300 billion in debt.
they're gonna default on their debt.
the chinese government is probably gonna hang everyone on the board of directors for this.
the one guy that snitches the hardest, will get life in prison and his family will move to canada with their 10's of millions in ontarian real estate

edit: the owner has 7.8 billion so if he uses his own money to pay it month to month. at 47.5 million. he can buy them 164 months of time. at absolute most. or 13 years. he likely doesnt have anywhere near 7.8 billion in cash or quickly liquidable assets that make up that much
 
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they're gonna default on their debt.
It seems almost inevitable. Like, hilariously so.

One of the things I've been meaning to do when I'm not tired as fuck from work is actually dive into some of the recent market position history for the bigger, shrewder players. The ones that learned from 2008 are probably feeling a little rattled right about now, and I have a sneaking suspicion that they've been quietly closing many of their foreign-exposed positions over the last month, a little at a time to avoid market panic. If so, it's only going to further fuel the flames for the ensuing fallout.

the chinese government is probably gonna hang everyone on the board of directors for this.
That will also be interesting to see how it plays out. I definitely wouldn't want to be still on the mainland if I was an Evergrande patsy, that's for damn sure.

ETA:
edit: the owner has 7.8 billion so if he uses his own money to pay it month to month. at 47.5 million. he can buy them 164 months of time. at absolute most. or 13 years
A few things though.
1) That $7.8 billion isn't pure liquidity: most of it is going to be tied up in assets. And since it's China we're talking about, a large share of it is probably assets like property (lol) that is absolutely not going to be easy to liquidate or use as collateral for money loans, especially now as Evergrande continues to pull the Chinese real estate market apart piece by piece. And even if it was, presumably Hui didn't work his way up to bagholder CEO for a major Chinese company just so that he could spend all of his hard-earned capital gains applying band-aids to the holes in his quickly sinking ship.

2) It's not $47.5 million per month though. For instance, they need to magically find another $338 million by Christmas just to pay off upcoming coupon payments alone. From the article:
It still has nearly $338 million in other offshore coupon payments coming due in November and December.

3) And recall that a lot of these are just interest payments. As in, they're not actually putting a proper dent into their debt yet. And businesses are supposed to make money and products, not just stagnate by paying off interest on increasingly large debt. If all they're doing is staving off the inevitable, then they still won't actually have money to do shit with like finish all of those half-finished apartments that they started.

It's actually quite a mess. And that's not even touching on all of the foreign exposure that's going to cause problems (how many problems? We're not even sure yet) for us non-bugmen out in the civilized rest of the world.
 
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this is a seperate post to emphasize the sheer magnitude of this conundrum they have.
they owe 292,200,000,000
they just made a payment for 47,500,000
assuming these are monthly payments, they're gonna have to pay it back for the next
512 fucking years. if they payed it week to week. that'd still be 118 years.
these aren't company debts, these are country debts for wars a long as time ago.
 
Do we have exact dates for upcoming payments. I hate faggot cocksucking journalists, cant put useful information in their fucking articles.
Here's a payment schedule for the coupon payments for the rest of the year:

MaturityCcyOutstanding amountNext coupon dateNext coupon amountRIC
Apr. 11, 2022USD$1.45 blnOct. 11, 2021$68.88 mln
Apr. 11, 2023USD$850 mlnOct. 11, 2021$42.5 mln
Apr. 11, 2024USD$700 mlnOct. 11, 2021$36.75 mln
Oct. 19, 2025CNY2.1 bln yuanOct. 19, 2021121.8 mln yuan
Jan. 30, 2022USD$300 mlnOct. 30, 2021$14.25 mln
Nov. 6, 2022USD$645 mlnNov. 6, 2021$41.93 mln
Nov. 6, 2023USD$590 mlnNov. 6, 2021$40.56 mln
Jun. 28, 2023USD$1.34 blnDec. 28, 2021$50.43 mln
Jun. 28, 2025USD$4.68 blnDec. 28, 2021$204.77 mln

You can't really take those numbers at face value though. Why? Because Evergrande has been missing the payment schedule consistently. That payment they made a few days ago? It was an overdue payment for their September coupon debt.
From here:
The company made an interest payment that had been due on Sept. 29, this person said, speaking on condition of anonymity to discuss the matter. Evergrande had a 30-day grace period on the bond payment; the extension was to end on Friday.

So you read the above table as follows: Even though October's over, they apparently still haven't paid most of those coupon amounts above. Assuming (and I have no idea, so it really is an assumption) that they get a 30-day window to pay the rest of the coupons and they've paid nothing toward any of them yet, then they have to scrounge up money for all of the amounts I highlighted in red before the year is out.
 
During the Cold War, the Soviets were absolutely convinced that NATO, particularly the United States, was more than willing to initiate a First Strike without warning. This paranoia fed into their reaction to Able Archer '83, where they thought a NATO wargame involving heads of state and the theoretical use of nuclear and conventional weaponry to be a disguise for an actual first strike and invasion.

I'd say the mental calculus that formed those opinions has probably changed since the end of the Cold War, particularly in regards to the current administration and military leadership. We have the head of the Joint Chiefs supposedly telling China he's going to fucking warn them if we attack. I don't think Russia or China fears a first strike response from us and that very well might tie into any nuclear option they might take to further their goals.

I will say that I sincerely doubt either nation is interested in detonating nuclear munitions in city centers. That is an open invitation to have your own city centers attacked, which is something neither side can accept. You would see nuclear strikes on carrier strike groups or on overseas bases long before you'd see any ICBM flung anywhere near the continental United States. One airburst over Moscow, Beijing, or Los Angeles would be enough to effectively cripple the warfighting capability of any of these nations. I pulled the following example from NUKEMAP:

View attachment 2643703

If I'm the Chinese and I airburst an ICBM somewhere around Los Angeles, you can see the estimated fatalities and injuries above. Even if you take out the overwhelming number of dead, the injured will cripple the supply chain and healthcare systems of the United States. There will be more burn victims requiring specialized burn beds than there are burn beds on the entire planet. The United States (or China or Russia) would be completely incapable of engaging in a conventional war while also responding to a disaster of this scale. Vaporizing large urban centers is something that could cause an entire nation to fall on its own.

Using a tactical nuclear warhead on a carrier group or armored column is one thing - that's a national disaster, but not fatal for that nation. Nuking a city overwhelms that nation's ability to respond to that nuclear strike on a humanitarian level, much less engaging in conventional warfare. You've essentially just cucked yourself into guaranteeing a counterstrike on one of your own major urban centers, because what other option would the United States have in this example? If you lose an amphibious group crossing the Taiwanese Strait, you still might come out ahead in some fashion after the war ends. If your capital goes up in a ball of yellow fire, it doesn't matter how many cities you've nuked off the map, because you've still fucking lost.

If any nukes are launched at a city center, the US government will literally ignore the plight of a major city and go fully into erasing the offending country. Everything will be launched with justifiable panic and rage filled fury. No major city center nuking would cause the US to fall. Even nuking DC would just slow the response by a few minutes tops. The supply chain would bend around the devastation and coldly pretend it can’t hear the screaming. Heck, nuking a carrier group would garner this response, solely because you crossed the red line.

America has enough spare ordinance to reduce any landmass the size of Texas to charred black glass in scarily short order without using nukes and only Russia has a chance of slowing us down. Literally no other country has the military to even try stalling us out. Name a country that has enough industry to bounce back from that. The fact that nukes would be mixed in would mean complete removal of a nation.

If China nuked the US, there would no longer be a China, and Xi knows this. For those few idiots who would think that America would somehow magically fold after being nuked, I would like to point out to you that anyone who chooses to suicidally surrender would find themselves dragged out and shot by a federal agent because they aren’t going to even consider arresting anyone that wants to offer their families up for the sake of “peace”. You might not like the FBI, CIA, or any of the others, but you better be damn sure they’ll make sure that their own families are accounted for, and kill anyone that jeopardizes that.

Sorry for long post, but I‘m starting to think that people don’t understand how much of a big deal launching a nuke is. A “tactical” launch will be treated as the real deal because it is the real deal.
 
Sorry for long post, but I‘m starting to think that people don’t understand how much of a big deal launching a nuke is. A “tactical” launch will be treated as the real deal because it is the real deal.
Xi wants to be like Mao, mirroring his cult of personality and such. But unlike Mao, the King of Retards, Xi doesn't think they are going to be able to "Build socialism from the ashes" in case of a nuclear war, he would have to be a colossal retard to even think of doing that, there are some analysts saying the whole point of the hypersonic missile test was restoring their belief in M.A.D. as U.S. missile defenses were getting too strong to warrant it!

There is a chance of war between China and the U.S. in the future, considering how important Taiwan to both sides and the hostility brewing between them. Even in that case it wouldn't involve nukes unless Xi's idea of a future for China is him living on a secret bunker in the middle of the countryside, with every other major city being flooded from a strike on the Three Gorges Dam or just nuked to cinders!

I used to think like you. I thought there was no way for the US to lose a conventional war with another major power. There's just one little flaw in your analysis. Our military is now run by people like General Milley who has literally betrayed the American people to China.
There were traitors in the original Cold War too, they leaked state secrets to the Soviets in exchange for wealth. And still, they collapsed and the U.S. didn't. We are also talking about the spirit of the peaceful present times, in times of war, things work differently, wars invigorate public morale and you can bet the U.S. would give China a hell of a fight in that case!

The U.S. wouldn't be alone too, China hated the news of AUKUS and an actual war would also push Japan, South Korea and India against them. They are no pushovers but they aren't unbeatable either!

these aren't company debts, these are country debts for wars a long as time ago.
There is no fucking way they are going to pay this shit off, this is a cooler breeze in the middle of a colossal fucking storm. When a stronger wind blows, everything will crumble!
 
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