Tabletop Community Watch

[Jet Fuel Johnny]

Trying to call them analogous to black people simply because they were stuck internment camps is so tone-deaf as to be completely insulting to black people. The Orcs were prisoners for a fucking good reason, and everybody loves to ignore that.

This part.

I notice that Orcs and goblins in Pathfinder and D&D are now just "Fluffy misunderstood uwu" instead of portrayed how they have been for decades. The calls of racism and "nobody is like, born evil, maaaaaaaan" ignores fundamental differences between the fantasy world and our real world.

But it's more fun to virtue signal and reduce TTRPG's to "the game of big gray blobs and validation" than actually play an RPG.

 

[Sinner's Sandwich]

This part.

I notice that Orcs and goblins in Pathfinder and D&D are now just "Fluffy misunderstood uwu" instead of portrayed how they have been for decades. The calls of racism and "nobody is like, born evil, maaaaaaaan" ignores fundamental differences between the fantasy world and our real world.

But it's more fun to virtue signal and reduce TTRPG's to "the game of big gray blobs and validation" than actually play an RPG.

Reminds me of this Warpzone skit

 

[Adamska]

This part.

I notice that Orcs and goblins in Pathfinder and D&D are now just "Fluffy misunderstood uwu" instead of portrayed how they have been for decades. The calls of racism and "nobody is like, born evil, maaaaaaaan" ignores fundamental differences between the fantasy world and our real world.

But it's more fun to virtue signal and reduce TTRPG's to "the game of big gray blobs and validation" than actually play an RPG.

I mean, I made mine Italians and they worked out fine. There's something fun about a race who isn't the brightest or most patient forming the beacon of old world culture ages ago.

Then again I also kept Drow evil mainly because they're a group of Elves in my setting that rejected losing to the Orcish Empire in setting and losing their own massive empire and human slaves. They and their descendants are still the big mad about that.

I tend to just make villains over races, but it's not like there weren't evil societies. Demon worshipping cannibals. Secret Cabals out to prove alignment is bullshit and trying to go beyond that. Crazed holy warriors out to force their Manichean views on things. I don't usually use race for that thing, but I sure as hell have enemies out there.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

You missed my point. The Orcs had this whole liberation story because the writers wanted to rehabilitate them. But you can't give them a slavery analogue because African people were brought to America against their own will and enslaved outright, while Orcs were quite happy to rush into Azeroth as invaders, marauders and conquerors.

Trying to call them analogous to black people simply because they were stuck in internment camps is so tone-deaf as to be completely insulting to black people. The Orcs were prisoners for a fucking good reason, and everybody loves to ignore that.

I was talking about what they did AFTER they got out of prison, not why they were in prison. WC3 starts with them already having broken out, aside from Grom Hellscream, whom you bail out in the tutorial.

 

[40 Year Old Boomer]

Back on the topic of temple/shrine rituals, some of the Auctoritas and Ignobilis Ritae from the VtM Sabbat could make for interesting sessions and scenarios.

Then again I also kept Drow evil mainly because they're a group of Elves in my setting that rejected losing to the Orcish Empire in setting and losing their own massive empire and human slaves. They and their descendants are still the big mad about that.

That's a good one. In the world setting I use, all elves are descended from the same original bloodline, with the biggest schism occurring in the far past over religion. The High Elves and Wood Elves honor and revere the nature goddess as their creator, while the Drow teach that their true creator is the Prince of Hate. Rather than the insane backstabbing matriarchy we're all familiar with from Forgotten Realms, they have a somewhat more stable monarchy and caste system. The ones that dislike the society are allowed to leave freely, not out of benevolence, but so they can plant spies and saboteurs among them for the three-fold purpose of the obvious spies/saboteurs in enemy states, letting their enemies do their persecuting for them, and fomenting hate between both the refugees and host citizens.

I was talking about what they did AFTER they got out of prison, not why they were in prison. WC3 starts with them already having broken out, aside from Grom Hellscream, whom you bail out in the tutorial.

I find it hilarious how their "greatest hero and liberator" shoved his way to the front of the line to drink demon blood and become a ruthless murder machine not once, but TWICE.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

I find it hilarious how their "greatest hero and liberator" shoved his way to the front of the line to drink demon blood and become a ruthless murder machine not once, but TWICE.

And that's why you have to kick his ass and bring him back to the light. He's that enslaved to the demon blood that it's like dealing with an alcoholic or a drug addict-an increasingly real problem in many modern minority communities across the country.

I tend to just make villains over races, but it's not like there weren't evil societies. Demon worshipping cannibals. Secret Cabals out to prove alignment is bullshit and trying to go beyond that. Crazed holy warriors out to force their Manichean views on things. I don't usually use race for that thing, but I sure as hell have enemies out there.

To be fair, in a world where you have demon-worship and cannibalism running afoot, alongside secret cabals trying to disprove moral alignment, maybe the holy warriors trying to force that shit out and bring in the idea that there is a difference between good and evil wouldn't be that bad, after all. I mean, how else would you counter people who worship demons while eating the flesh of their own kind, or people who believe that there's no such thing as good or evil? Naturally, you'd fight for all things sacred, and you'd try to force a view of the world that separates good from evil.

Hell, we almost had some of that in real life when the Spanish went up against the Aztecs. On the one had, you had fanatics who drove out people who worshiped different versions of the same God from their country, on the other hand, you have people who worship a blood god who gets pissed if he doesn't get his daily human sacrifices. The former were led by assholes, the latter were led by monsters. So letting the assholes wipe out the monsters wouldn't sound like such a bad idea.

 

[Corn Flakes]

I mean, I made mine Italians and they worked out fine. There's something fun about a race who isn't the brightest or most patient forming the beacon of old world culture ages ago.

Then again I also kept Drow evil mainly because they're a group of Elves in my setting that rejected losing to the Orcish Empire in setting and losing their own massive empire and human slaves. They and their descendants are still the big mad about that.

I tend to just make villains over races, but it's not like there weren't evil societies. Demon worshipping cannibals. Secret Cabals out to prove alignment is bullshit and trying to go beyond that. Crazed holy warriors out to force their Manichean views on things. I don't usually use race for that thing, but I sure as hell have enemies out there.

Sure, that's a great way of doing things. It's not the issue, though. My beef with the current crop of "actually proud and noble" formerly villainous races, and the push to outlaw fantastic racism, is that it sacrifices any depth the world might ever had for the sake of being inoffensive to people who wouldn't be playing the game to begin with.

This whole trend in fantasy to argue "everybody is the same and everybody is treated equally or you're a big mean racist" also cheapens both characters and narrative devices, too. If "race" is just a skin without any stats or rules (read: without any in-universe biological implications), seeing an ogre archmage or a goblin as the pious leader of an order of paladins doesn't mean anything. There's nothing special about them anymore, compared to their peers. Meanwhile, in a setting where ogres are widely known for being brutish and dim, and goblins are considered by default to be sniveling and evil, both those characters would have big huge neon signs floating about their heads saying "THIS GUY IS SPECIAL".

Meanwhile, in a setting where elves and dwarves have a longstanding rivalry, an elf and a dwarf adventuring together could be an interesting exception to the rule as two mutually-respectful adventuring partners, or they could be an endless source of fun banter sniping at each other as they go. But if people are not allowed to dislike one another for petty reasons, none of that is possible. There's no space to grow, no Very Special Episode where someone learns the error of their ways by witnessing something that goes entirely against the essence of their grudges. And no one is special either.


Another thing is that everybody just assumes racial/national stereotypes are universal. Like, in a pre-mass communication world, somehow people have exactly the same opinion of everybody else no matter where they live. Which is both unrealistic, and extremely lazy writing. Shit, even in the real world, with our ease of communication, things can be wildly different depending on where you live. Over here the Happy Merchant is a Jewish stereotype, while as I understand it in some places of South America it's also a Turkish stereotype for some reason. Here in America the French are widely mocked for being effeminate and surrender-prone, while in continental Europe there's more an consensus regarding the French being annoyingly stubborn and arrogant instead.

Here's an example of how this thing should be done in fiction: if there is a region being terrorized by a cult of cannibalistic halflings, the people of that area will be at the very least extremely mistrustful, and at most downright terrified, of halflings in general. People leaving that place might bring with them their prejudices, their fears, and their tales of Aunt Marjorie being roasted and eaten, and those tales might even spread and affect widespread opinions of halflings if given enough time. It could generate rumors and legends, and sow mistrust or even be used to justify massacres and purges in a completely different part of the world.

Usually you see negative stereotypes being propagated, but you can also have positive outlooks. If for some reason the orcs in one region of the world settled down and built cities instead of being nomadic marauders, and then that region had its own, more muscular version of the Islamic Golden Age, a lot of non-orcs in the area would be quite warmly disposed towards them, and find outsiders' views of orcs as being savage brutes strange.

I don't have a closer for this argument, I just think that these people are fucking lazy and trying to hide behind misguided self-righteousness, and that their laziness actively detracts from the hobby. I don't want a newbie to be afraid to explore character concepts because someone on twitter pitched a fit after their totally-original-do-not-steal gay elf bard got called a "knife-eared nancy" by the dwarf inkeeper when he failed his performance roll.

 

[anti SJW]

an elf and a dwarf adventuring together

I'm the type of player that would put skill points in shaving just so I could carefully shave the beard off the dwarf when the dwarf is sleeping and glue it to the elf just to see what would happen.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

Here's an example of how this thing should be done in fiction: if there is a region being terrorized by a cult of cannibalistic halflings, the people of that area will be at the very least extremely mistrustful, and at most downright terrified, of halflings in general. People leaving that place might bring with them their prejudices, their fears, and their tales of Aunt Marjorie being roasted and eaten, and those tales might even spread and affect widespread opinions of halflings if given enough time. It could generate rumors and legends, and sow mistrust or even be used to justify massacres and purges in a completely different part of the world.

Usually you see negative stereotypes being propagated, but you can also have positive outlooks. If for some reason the orcs in one region of the world settled down and built cities instead of being nomadic marauders, and then that region had its own, more muscular version of the Islamic Golden Age, a lot of non-orcs in the area would be quite warmly disposed towards them, and find outsiders' views of orcs as being savage brutes strange.

I don't have a closer for this argument, I just think that these people are fucking lazy and trying to hide behind misguided self-righteousness, and that their laziness actively detracts from the hobby. I don't want a newbie to be afraid to explore character concepts because someone on twitter pitched a fit after their totally-original-do-not-steal gay elf bard got called a "knife-eared nancy" by the dwarf inkeeper when he failed his performance roll.

That wasn't necessarily anything new in the age of old role-playing games. Like say, even the original Mass Effect trilogy had that, and that game series tried to be woke in a time when most games were just fifty different flavors of the same bald space marine that dominated video games in the late 00s and early 2010s. At a time when most fantasy games and RPGs just tried to rip off Game of Thrones or some older fantasy novel, Mass Effect put race politics to the forefront. Sure, one person is not their race, and they may have attributes that separate them from the norm, but their race and culture still colors their perceptions.

For example, Wrex, a member of the Krogan warrior species, will advocate violent solutions to most of your problems, especially when he runs across a remnant of the ancient alien bug-race that millions of his ancestors died trying to defeat. Garrus, who is of the Turian species that is known for being all about the law and defending social order through military might, wants to hunt down criminals and bring them to justice. Liara, who comes from the Asari, a long-lived race of space lesbians who are more likely to use diplomacy and politics over violence, will not be too pleased if you choose to, say, kill innocent creatures to help with a certain quest. Tali, a woman who comes from the Quarians, a race of technophiles who got kicked out of their planet by their former Geth AI servants, will not be too thrilled if she sees you working with AI, especially a Geth.

But each character brings in their own personal ticks, as well. Liara learns how to embrace violence as time goes on, even threatening to flay people alive on a holo-call. Garrus becomes more vigilante-esque even from the start, to the point where his superior in the police force complains that such an exceptional law officer should know how to follow the law. Wrex begins to see how the violent lifestyle of his people is leading them down the wrong path, and tries to lead them to a better path, a path towards healing and unity. Tali learns to work with AIs and puts aside her prejudice towards them.

There are also those who don't act like most of their race, like Aria, a violent Asari who rules a space station that's basically gangland in space, or some Krogan businessman on Illium who acts polite towards you and thanks you for your help. It goes to show that there are those who choose to defy the cultural hallmarks of their species for a more nuanced approach to society and power.

Also, how the galaxy views humans depend on your actions as a human. The humans save the Citadel Council in the first game? Alien shop owners are more likely to give you a discount in the second game. The humans let the Council die in the first game? Then some local aliens in the second game see the humans as scum. Your actions as a human have an effect on how non-humans see you, and whether or not they trust you or your species. Good actions, of course, are a great way to get people to see your kind in a better light. For example, even a Batarian who is convinced that the humans poisoned his district with a plague starts being more polite towards you if you heal him, though he still blames humans since humans were immune to the plague.

Yes, there are people who are racist towards humans, but not all of them have a shallow hate for humanity. Some hate the humans and the other races for intellectual reasons, others are carrying wounds in their heart:

This game series came out before Anita Sarkeesian was a household name, and it already handled race politics in a role-playing setting far better than what most of the leftist gurus want for a modern role-playing experience. That's because they were interested in making a three-dimensional, lived-in world that can function as an exercise in role-playing and ethics, they were not out to make simple propaganda. It's a game series where you can see the good fruits of being nice, but you can cast all that aside and play as a racist or be a total dickhead if you want, because the game-makers are under the impression that their audience are grown-ups who don't need to be constantly reminded of the message "RACIST MAN BAD".

 

[Jet Fuel Johnny]

A fun thing is making it so the elves are Elvish Superiority Fanatics who enslaved the dwarves for their stonemaking and metal working skills, the halflings are Dixie Plantation Owner racists that all have "tuskaneenee's" (read: orks) working on their plantations next to human sharecroppers, and watch people's heads pop off, gnomes live like Mongols/Apache fighting against the goblins who are the same, and humans are largely relegated to their massive city-states if they aren't slaves of the halflings, elves, or gnomes.

And tieflings? Well, they're the product of elven magical experimentation of breeding humans to demons in order to offset the halfling armies. Orc and dwarf hatred comes from being slave armies.

Although, weirdly, that continent is kind of a player favorite for some reason.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

A fun thing is making it so the elves are Elvish Superiority Fanatics who enslaved the dwarves for their stonemaking and metal working skills, the halflings are Dixie Plantation Owner racists that all have "tuskaneenee's" (read: orks) working on their plantations next to human sharecroppers, and watch people's heads pop off, gnomes live like Mongols/Apache fighting against the goblins who are the same, and humans are largely relegated to their massive city-states if they aren't slaves of the halflings, elves, or gnomes.

And tieflings? Well, they're the product of elven magical experimentation of breeding humans to demons in order to offset the halfling armies. Orc and dwarf hatred comes from being slave armies.

Although, weirdly, that continent is kind of a player favorite for some reason.

So basically, they treat other races like shit, not because ORANGE MAN BAD, but because there's a practical, material benefit to it. Almost like how slavery and racial discrimination solidified in real-world nations. That's realistic, but will it pass the censors of today's media?

 

[HTTP Error 404]

You missed my point. The Orcs had this whole liberation story because the writers wanted to rehabilitate them. But you can't give them a slavery analogue because African people were brought to America against their own will and enslaved outright, while Orcs were quite happy to rush into Azeroth as invaders, marauders and conquerors.

Trying to call them analogous to black people simply because they were stuck in internment camps is so tone-deaf as to be completely insulting to black people. The Orcs were prisoners for a fucking good reason, and everybody loves to ignore that.

So they're European Muslims?

 

[Wormy]

Maybe these people should give this "fun" thing a try, before the government outlaws it.

They've tried many times before and failed. We'll always go as underground as we need to.

But it's more fun to virtue signal and reduce TTRPG's to "the game of big gray blobs and validation" than actually play an RPG.

Quit playing online. Play in person and in a place you can kick wokescolds out. Only way. Only way.

 

[40 Year Old Boomer]

They've tried many times before and failed. We'll always go as underground as we need to.

Quit playing online. Play in person and in a place you can kick wokescolds out. Only way. Only way.

We've had two wokescolds try to play with my group (offline, fuck roll20, we kept meeting even during the start of this faggy quarantine). First one was told in advance this was an evil party campaign and got laughed at derisively for crying when we executed orcs that had surrendered ("I speak for the orcs" is still a running joke for us). The second didn't even make it to the session. All I know is one minute she's there while I'm cooking burgers for everybody and then I come out and am like "where'd whatsherface go?" and everybody pointed at the other DM in the group. I claimed her burger.

 

[Jet Fuel Johnny]

Had an wokescold get mad when they joined my group. I warned them it wasn't D&D.

It was Rifts.

A Coalition States focused game with a "Humanity First!" focus, set during the opening years of the Siege of Tolkeen.

Yeah, they didn't last.

 

[EnemyStand]

Ended up in a game with a wokescold where we decided to play Evil characters (it wasn't technically an evil campaign, we as players decided to do it) and we started locked in a cell and sentenced to trial by combat. My character was a NE bandit who was more or less guilty of every crime he was accused of and treated being locked up and sentenced to death as little more than an annoyance (His gang was slaughtered and that was the only thing he cared about, so he was a bit of a death seeker). I ended up quitting when the faggot Kobold from Canada (who was supposedly Neutral Evil) would constantly gainsay my character and try to take the good options. During the breakout, he tried to stop me from murdering a witness (failed the roll off), then got upset IRL when I got info out of a sorceress by using rape threats (we had her tied up) then once again got mad when my character murdered her and accused me of being a murderhobo. Explaining my character was literally raised in the woods by cutthroats and brigands meant nothing to him, apparently. I ended up dropping out when he said it was him or me, because fuck that noise.

 

[Jet Fuel Johnny]

accused me of being a murderhobo.

Anyone who uses that term unironically is such a faggot that two queers fucking at a gay pride parade will stop having sex to hate crime him when he walks by.

Seriously, what is it with other people wanting to play your characters for you?

"My paladin's going to tell the orcs 'you have five minutes to prepare yourselves to meet your god."
"NOOOOO! THEY SURRENDERED! YOU'RE LAWFUL GOOD!"
"They have been found guilty of heresy, burning villages, raping white halfling virgins, and being orcs. The sentence is death."
"YOU CAN'T DO THAT!"
DM>"Actually, he can."

 

[EnemyStand]

Anyone who uses that term unironically is such a faggot that two queers fucking at a gay pride parade will stop having sex to hate crime him when he walks by.

I would unironically love to see that.

Seriously, what is it with other people wanting to play your characters for you?

"My paladin's going to tell the orcs 'you have five minutes to prepare yourselves to meet your god."
"NOOOOO! THEY SURRENDERED! YOU'RE LAWFUL GOOD!"
"They have been found guilty of heresy, burning villages, raping white halfling virgins, and being orcs. The sentence is death."
"YOU CAN'T DO THAT!"
DM>"Actually, he can."

They don't know what roleplaying is and are completely incapable of it. They don't think "oh, what would my character think?" because their character is themselves. They then assume everyone is like that, so when an ex-theater kid like me comes around and actually thinks about what motivates the character and what solutions they'd prefer (surprise, the bloodthirsty cutthroat's favorite form of problem solving is killing!) their programming goes haywire and they fall back on platitudes because that's how they convince themselves they're LG IRL.

I realize I even forgot a few details. That sorceress we had tied up? Yeah, she was one of the people that had us locked up in the first place. I don't know about you, but when I think Neutral Evil I don't count forgiveness as a virtue. The LE players did great though, the cleric got upset over an "Extra-judicial killing that ignores the very precepts of the Lord of the Ninth Hell. We should have had a trial first."

 

[thegooddoctor]

I shared this with Wraith earlier but I don’t know what are youse guys thoughts? /tg/‘s unfinished Suffering chart. What speds lmao

 

[Adamska]

Anyone who uses that term unironically is such a faggot that two queers fucking at a gay pride parade will stop having sex to hate crime him when he walks by.

Seriously, what is it with other people wanting to play your characters for you?

"My paladin's going to tell the orcs 'you have five minutes to prepare yourselves to meet your god."
"NOOOOO! THEY SURRENDERED! YOU'RE LAWFUL GOOD!"
"They have been found guilty of heresy, burning villages, raping white halfling virgins, and being orcs. The sentence is death."
"YOU CAN'T DO THAT!"
DM>"Actually, he can."

*rocks hands on the last charge*

I'd disagree with that last one, but eh. It's the Paladin of a religious order likely facing a foe deemed worthy of death, so roleplay wise it's cool. It'd be like a Knight of St. Cuthbert yeeting the Necromancer that wrought havoc in the county; they could possibly be redeemed, but honestly sword to the head works just as well and with less effort. Besides, point 2 and 3 would definitely merit their death anyway in any society worth a shit.

It's almost like you can disagree with an action and let it slide or something. I mean the homonculi you guys seem to run into can't, but a good chunk of people should be able to.

Besides, that fucker probably talks about all the sick anal rips their character recieves despite the cringe, so the least they can do is let Hochmeister Ulrich slaughter the foes of his god.