The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

Assuming that's true, that's remarkedly comparable to mao zedong's great leap forward (the (un?)intentional genocide by starvation of millions as a result of radical farming organisation ideas).
Except, and I emphasize this since it might have been lost in my long post, Romanian policy does not prove German policy.

Like I said, Romanians did not have Nazi type ideological commitments necessary to totally genocide a population. But they weren't too concerned with taking care of Jews during a war and so the majority died.
 
Last edited:
If we accept that jews from all across Europe were sent to Transnistria to be resettled by Romania, and the official estimates are 410,000 jews wrongfully claimed to have been genocided here,
I think the problem you're making is with the "official estimate" of 410k Jews killed there. I thought you meant 410k were sent there, which I don't think is supported. Official count lists max 125k Jews in this area, and it's not even clear 75k died but perhaps some were evacuated for labor purposes.

If we take into account the 200,000-300,000 jewish workers doing drainage work, which are attested to multiple times
We haven't gotten to this, but I don't think this is supported either. And they wouldn't send non-working Jews to do this anyway.

, and the maybe 100,000 or so settled in the Baltic,
Non-working Jews of the Ostland were "evacuated east" as per the 1943 Himmler order, which I believe we've both quoted

"Inmates of the Jewish ghettos who are not required are to be evacuated to the East."

I've seen no evidence that 100k were kept around into 1944. Where? The ghettos were dissolved.

I doubt I will ever be able to account for 100% of the missing people because there is an inherent contradiction involved, in attempting to prove that mainstream historiography is wrong, using only sources cited by mainstream historiography. Perhaps if I were a professional historian, I would be able to do deep diving, reading through obscure testimonies and finding names of places like Ananiev, and piece together a narrative; but I am neither qualified, nor paid to do this, so I am content that I can at least account for some half of the missing people.
Well hold on, I don't think you've accounted for half, a quarter, or even 1% of the people in question. So far nothing you presented seems to suggest non-working Jews were maintained by the Germans in Russia into 1943. This is different than showing a few Jews managed to hide out in forests or in the ruins of ghettos or among the native population.

I'll give you some examples that would suffice as evidence for mass resettlement in German controlled USSR. Since there's no German documents, we can only rely on German/Jewish/Russian witness evidence, eg:

Witnesses speaking about ghettos that into 1943 had not been significantly reduced, and probably were even bigger than they'd ever been due to incoming transfers​
internment camps during this time where non-working Jews (children, families, infirm, and elderly) were held​
internment camps and ghettos built and formed during this time to handle new arrivals (not labor camps which could be situational)​
large scale transport or movement of non-working Jews into or around Russia during this time​
I'd accept witnesses reporting on mere rumors of any of these things as minor though noteworthy evidence. However there are no convincing accounts even of this nature, though revisionists say there is one*

But perhaps I'm missing something, so now would be the time for you point me to your most compelling piece or two of evidence, I don't want to cherry pick

BTW, "professional historian" is a rather useless term. If you have archival experience, can speak foreign languages, and have experience and familiarity with the literature you should be capable of finding this sort of stuff. David Irving looked into the issue heavily from the German side, until the Goebbels and Eichmann materials convinced him the mass killings were real. Mattogno and Graf I know can read German, Russian, and Polish and have actually done some good work finding and translating important documents.

*I think the best evidence they've been able to bring forth re mass resettlement in 40 years of work is the diary of Herman Kruk, which is sub-sub-optimal for reasons we can get into if it's not obvious.
 
Last edited:
I think the problem you're making is with the "official estimate" of 410k Jews killed there. I thought you meant 410k were sent there, which I don't think is supported. Official count lists max 125k Jews in this area, and it's not even clear 75k died but perhaps some were evacuated for labor purposes.


We haven't gotten to this, but I don't think this is supported either. And they wouldn't send non-working Jews to do this anyway.


Non-working Jews of the Ostland were "evacuated east" as per the 1943 Himmler order, which I believe we've both quoted

"Inmates of the Jewish ghettos who are not required are to be evacuated to the East."

I've seen no evidence that 100k were kept around into 1944. Where? The ghettos were dissolved.


Well hold on, I don't think you've accounted for half, a quarter, or even 1% of the people in question. So far nothing you presented seems to suggest non-working Jews were maintained by the Germans in Russia into 1943. This is different than showing a few Jews managed to hide out in forests or in the ruins of ghettos or among the native population.

I'll give you some examples that would suffice as evidence for mass resettlement in German controlled USSR. Since there's no German documents, we can only rely on German/Jewish/Russian witness evidence, eg:

Witnesses speaking about ghettos that into 1943 had not been significantly reduced, and probably were even bigger than they'd ever been due to incoming transfers​
internment camps during this time where non-working Jews (children, families, infirm, and elderly) were held​
internment camps and ghettos built and formed during this time to handle new arrivals (not labor camps which could be situational)​
large scale transport or movement of non-working Jews into or around Russia during this time​
I'd accept witnesses reporting on mere rumors of any of these things as minor though noteworthy evidence. However there are no convincing accounts even of this nature, though revisionists say there is one*

But perhaps I'm missing something, so now would be the time for you point me to your most compelling piece or two of evidence, I don't want to cherry pick

BTW, "professional historian" is a rather useless term. If you have archival experience, can speak foreign languages, and have experience and familiarity with the literature you should be capable of finding this sort of stuff. David Irving looked into the issue heavily from the German side, until the Goebbels and Eichmann materials convinced him the mass killings were real. Mattogno and Graf I know can read German, Russian, and Polish and have actually done some good work finding and translating important documents.

*I think the best evidence they've been able to bring forth re mass resettlement in 40 years of work is the diary of Herman Kruk, which is sub-sub-optimal for reasons we can get into if it's not obvious.
I have barely even gotten into this, all I am doing is reading mainstream testimonies and trying to look off the beaten path to see things that don't add up because I know I will never be able to prove that mainstream historians are wrong by citing mainstream historians. To really make conclusive proofs I would have to strike entirely new ground and I don't even have the linguistic skills to do this, just google translate.

I wonder though if people like Mattogno feel the same way, if they have stumbled across the names of places that don't officially exist, and this is what drives them. Such a thing by itself means nothing. Is it a collective farm of 50 people? A ghetto of 1000 people? An internment camp of 20,000 people? Just hearing a reference to a name in itself can prove nothing, but if these people have been studying this for decades, I wonder how many loose ends they have encountered which are simply dead ends because they are not referenced anywhere in official literature, most of which came from the USSR.

At any rate, I will give a concession as well, I don't think even half of the people the Germans handled survived, for one reason or another, the population of jews was massively devastated by this resettlement.
 
I have barely even gotten into this, all I am doing is reading mainstream testimonies and trying to look off the beaten path to see things that don't add up because I know I will never be able to prove that mainstream historians are wrong by citing mainstream historians. To really make conclusive proofs I would have to strike entirely new ground and I don't even have the linguistic skills to do this, just google translate.

I wonder though if people like Mattogno feel the same way, if they have stumbled across the names of places that don't officially exist, and this is what drives them. Such a thing by itself means nothing. Is it a collective farm of 50 people? A ghetto of 1000 people? An internment camp of 20,000 people? Just hearing a reference to a name in itself can prove nothing, but if these people have been studying this for decades, I wonder how many loose ends they have encountered which are simply dead ends because they are not referenced anywhere in official literature, most of which came from the USSR.

At any rate, I will give a concession as well, I don't think even half of the people the Germans handled survived, for one reason or another, the population of jews was massively devastated by this resettlement.
I appreciate your concession, I really do, but ultimately I reject it lol. If we're being honest about history we shouldn't just assume that half the non-working Jews died because something similar happened in Romania, we should base our views on what is supported by the historical evidence. Now it is absolutely not your job to gather and make sense of the raw evidence. It's not my job either. I'm an amateur as well, only a year or two into my study of the subject. But in my view mainstream historians have done a really good job, and I can go through their work and understand it.

Now revisionists consider mainstream historians to be an absolute joke in terms of methodology and competence. How else could a group of people be utterly convinced in a systematic program of mass murder supported by almost no evidence?(in the revisionist view) If revisionist historians are this much better, you should be able find all the answers you need just as I have with mainstream literature.

But here you run into some problems, and this becomes particularly apparent when you look at witness evidence. In 60 years of looking revisionists have not been able to produce any statements evincing continued existence of settlements/camps/ghettos of non-working Jews in German occupied Russia.

Yet rather easily you were able to do this when you found this ghetto in Transnistria, which (as relayed by mainstream historians, and no doubt based heavily on witness statements) suffered only minor population loss during its existence, thereby meeting one of my criteria

Just found this:


The ghetto was massively expanded in size from its original population through resettlement, from 1000 to 4000, (with 500 deaths, 400 of which due to Typhus); plus 120 entire families were able to settle outside the ghetto via bribes.

How could this be? The amount of resettled Jews in German occupied Russia was orders of magnitude higher. Just the ghetto of Lvov comes close to matching the total Jewish population of Transnistria, and this was before hundreds of thousands or millions of non-working Jews were deported into Russia.

It stands to reason that you should be able to find dozens or hundreds of ghettos just like Dzhurin in occupied USSR (or perhaps Poland?), created and maintained during the liquidation of the huge ghettos and mass transfer of Jews from the west... and if you can't I'd say something is very very wrong. Because not only does that mean there is a conspicuous lack of documents compared to Transnistria, but there's a lack of witness statements too, and again there should be much much more just based on the 20-30x higher population. That is unless something entirely different was going on in German held lands.

Think about it . . . there doesn't even seem to be rumors of 'resettlement'

btw I think this book is the best resource on small little known camps and ghettos like Dzhurin. Part B is almost exclusively about German occupied USSR https://www.ushmm.org/online/camps-ghettos-download/USHMM_Vol 2_PartB.pdf I think you might be surprised by the level of detail

PPS please take your time responding here if need be, I think it's silly to view this as a competition and won't hold it against you. I actually give you credit for being the first revisionist to engage me in detail on this topic (most seem to really not want to talk about it)
 
Want to know what is funny? Seeing Chugger get in debates and people rebutting with their own belief backed by evidence.

Nice to know the media and governments gaslit and lied as heavily as they do today, as the sham of the Nurenburg trials show. I didn't know this before and happy to know it now.

Nice to know that a lot of the "final solution" orders were goalpost moving on what resettlement means. The fact the word is used in ways that would contradict orders and sow confusion pointed out in many circumstances.

Chugger probably came into this thread as a paid shill to shut down debate, instead he sparked one of the best debates on the web on why the holocaust in the books is complete bullshit. Thank you for bringing out the best minds here on the topic, I will cite this thread to help bring more skeptics on the topic into the world.
Before this thread I was almost neutral on the entire topic, to be really honest. It was seeing Chugger continually flail around and fail to bring up anything concrete that made me realize all the narratives I had heard were never based on evidentiary proof. There were a lot of testimony and passages in textbooks, but I had never seen a single bit of evidence that supported it all throughout school and life. Seeing him constantly move goalposts, act in bad faith, and outright ignore points to shift topics of engage in pedantic sophistry deepened my skepticism past the event horizon.

He might have been paid to dispense supplemental bluepills but I believe he's only woken up more to the Hoax-o-cost.
 
Before this thread I was almost neutral on the entire topic, to be really honest. It was seeing Chugger continually flail around and fail to bring up anything concrete that made me realize all the narratives I had heard were never based on evidentiary proof. There were a lot of testimony and passages in textbooks, but I had never seen a single bit of evidence that supported it all throughout school and life. Seeing him constantly move goalposts, act in bad faith, and outright ignore points to shift topics of engage in pedantic sophistry deepened my skepticism past the event horizon.

He might have been paid to dispense supplemental bluepills but I believe he's only woken up more to the Hoax-o-cost.
And this is exactly why it's forbidden. Because in open debates, more people walk away with doubts than with certainty it happened. If you watch a movie like "denial", the conclusion that they want you to walk away with is "don't even bother talking to these people, they're beneath contempt". If you think about it, it's a clever attempt to try and stifle that discussion.

And if you look at a picture of Irving and Lipstadt and then of the actors chosen to play them, the propaganda becomes particularly transparent.

Real David Irving:
irving1.jpgdavid-irving2.jpg
Movie David Irving:
irving-movie.JPGirving-movie2.JPG
Real Deborah Lipstadt:
lipstadt1.JPGlipstadt2.JPG
Movie Deborah Lipstadt:

lipstadt-movie.JPGrachel2.JPG
 
Last edited:
Because in open debates, more people walk away with doubts than with certainty it happened
Looking at the other thread, I saw the ratio of believer to non-believer at the start was barely 2 to 1, now it's gone up significantly (my handlers have given me a promotion for this)

1639253243049.png


Confirmation bias is a powerful thing. Rapechu is the only one here who actually met my arguments and I doubt most people were even following our in-depth conversation. Being able to score quick points with quips and insults is more important. In the end, most people are gonna believe in what makes them feel good, not what they can rationally defend.

ie, someone please tell me how 2-3 million Jews got resettled by Germans into 1943, apparently without a single witness speaking up about it, or a single document to show for it. If you believe half of them died due to privation or justified reprisal shootings, that still leaves many hundreds of thousands of people. 80 years have passed.

and again, on the other side, I compiled a 30+ item list of "interesting" evidence here

And if you look at a picture of Irving and Lipstadt and then of the actors chosen to play them, the propaganda becomes particularly transparent.
hollywood always does this with unattractive female biopics. Rachel Weiss is a Jewess for what its worth. that movie sucked lol
 
Last edited:
Looking at the other thread, I saw the ratio of believer to non-believer at the start was barely 2 to 1, now it's gone up significantly (my handlers have given me a promotion for this)

View attachment 2792569

Confirmation bias is a powerful thing. Rapechu is the only one here who actually argued with me and I doubt most people were even following our in depth conversation. Being able to score quick points with quips and insults is more important. In the end, most people are gonna believe in what makes them feel good, not what they can rationally defend.

ie, someone please tell me how 2-3 million Jews got resettled in 42-43, apparently without a single witness speaking up about it, or a single document to show for it. 80 years have passed.


hollywood always does this with unattractive female biopics. Rachel Weiss is a Jewess for what its worth. that movie sucked lol
We don't have to argue with you when you fail at doing anything that the big picture requires. You can't post actual physical proof of any of it happening. Where is direct proof Hitler ordered the holocaust? Where is the autopsy of one person killed by gas?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Neo-Holstien
Looking at the other thread, I saw the ratio of believer to non-believer at the start was barely 2 to 1, now it's gone up significantly (my handlers have given me a promotion for this)

View attachment 2792569

Confirmation bias is a powerful thing. Rapechu is the only one here who actually met my arguments and I doubt most people were even following our in-depth conversation. Being able to score quick points with quips and insults is more important. In the end, most people are gonna believe in what makes them feel good, not what they can rationally defend.

ie, someone please tell me how 2-3 million Jews got resettled by Germans into 1943, apparently without a single witness speaking up about it, or a single document to show for it. If you believe half of them died due to privation or justified reprisal shootings, that still leaves many hundreds of thousands of people. 80 years have passed.

and again, on the other side, I compiled a 30+ item list of "interesting" evidence here


hollywood always does this with unattractive female biopics. Rachel Weiss is a Jewess for what its worth. that movie sucked lol
Conformation bias is also a powerful thing when the majority opinion is formed through gaslighting, could play that argument all day. The difference here is you have no power besides the soapbox, where on the majority of other platforms the admins are often paid by your handlers to ban or dox anyone that might get a leg up on a debate.

On a equal playing field, shills like you get devoured.
 
So first before I make my big post, I want to talk about my pre-existing biases. I never looked in depth at the holocaust in the eastern front before, because I have only ever heard the gas chambers discussed. I had been convinced that the gas chambers are a hoax by credible evidence, and so I never felt the need to look into the east, because, I dismissed it, reasoning that if the gas chambers were fake, then the rest of the holocaust was probably fake too.

I spent the past few hours reading the holocaust encyclopedia and other sources, and one thing I will agree with Chugger on, is that the holocaust is very well documented; however, there is a caveat, taking a glance at the citations, I happened see a name I recognized.... Ilya Ehrenburg. You may remember him as the author of this piece of insanity:
“The Germans are not human beings. From now on, the word ‘German’ is the most horrible curse. From now on, the word ‘German’ strikes us to the quick. We have nothing to discuss. We will not get excited. We will kill. If you have not killed at least one German a day, you have wasted that day … If you cannot kill a German with a bullet, then kill him with your bayonet. If your part of the front is quiet and there is no fighting, then kill a German in the meantime … If you have already killed a German, then kill another one – there is nothing more amusing to us than a heap of German corpses. Don’t count the days, don’t count the kilometers. Count only one thing: the number of Germans you have killed. Kill the Germans! … – Kill the Germans! Kill!”

Looking into things further, this one man is cited quite literally dozens of times, he is one of the most important sources for the entire narrative. I fully expect that a professional soviet propagandists would try to amplify German war crimes as much as possible, so I don't trust everything I read here, and expect a good amount of spin-doctoring, but I think it's still good enough to get a general picture of things.

First of all, the jews were, without a shadow of a doubt, engaging in a mass uprising against the Germans. Now you can make a chicken and egg argument, were they rebelling because the Germans were killing them, or were the Germans killing them because they were rebelling. Probably there was a feedback loop of both, which resulted in an escalation from both sides. Generally what I found is that early on in the war only suspected communists were killed, as a rule of thumb. As time went on, the Germans began rounding up more and more suspects and the jews began organizing rebellions, and upon hearing news of significant partisan activity, the Germans would engage in reprisals, which would devastate the remaining population of a ghetto. Almost every major camp and ghetto had a large jewish uprising, I can easily find evidence of literally hundreds of such uprisings in mainstream literature, without particularly straining myself... often entire ghettoes fled to join the partisans in the forests. Child partisans and women partisans were common.

jewish partisan child ww2.jpeg


Often, the German massacres were a self-fulfilling prophesy. Many times, a ghetto would hear rumors it was about to be exterminated, then rise up, and Germans would come and kill a good number of them in retaliation. After the German reprisals, the surviving population of many ghettoes were often very small, and it was common for the ghetto to be dissolved completely and its remaining people moved to another ghetto.

To give an example of how big these rebellions could be, the latest soviet census of Minsk before WW2, had the jewish population at 54,000. Some sources estimate that the Minsk Ghetto had a population of over 100,000 at its peak (due to German resettlement policies), until 30,000 jews fled the ghetto to join as partisans.

Here is a quote from the Nuremberg trials from Hans Lammers, where he claims that Himmler admitted to this and justified his actions:

Hans Lammers (Chief of the Reich Chancellery): "Finally, however, in 1943, rumors cropped up that Jews were being killed. I had no jurisdiction in this field; it was merely that I occasionally received complaints and on the basis of these complaints I investigated the rumors. But, as far as I could tell, at any rate, these rumors always proved to be only rumors. Every one said he had heard it from somebody else and nobody wanted to make a definite statement. I am, in fact, of the opinion that these rumors were based mostly on foreign broadcasts and that the people just did not want to say from where they had the information. That caused me once more to undertake an investigation of this matter. First of all, since I, for my part, could not initiate investigations of matters under Himmler’s jurisdiction, I addressed myself to Himmler once again. Himmler denied any legal killings and told me, with reference to the order from the Führer, that it was his duty to evacuate the Jews and that during such evacuations, which also involved old and sick people, of course there were cases of death, there were accidents, there were attacks by enemy aircraft. He added too, that there were revolts, which of course he had to suppress severely and with bloodshed, as a warning. For the rest, he said that these people were being accommodated in camps in the East. He brought out a lot of pictures and albums and showed me the work that was being done in these camps by the Jews and how they worked for the war needs, the shoemakers shops, tailors shops, and so forth."

"Nevertheless, I once again reported this matter to the Führer, and on this occasion he gave me exactly the same reply which I had been given by Himmler. He said, “I shall later on decide where these Jews will be taken and in the meantime they are being housed there."

If the deaths of jews in Romania are a lesson about the failure of socialist economic policies; the mass uprisings in Germany are a lesson about the failure of using intimidation as your sole means of diplomacy.



Reading through some things revisionists say in response, what I find to be convincing is that the Germans originally intended to settle the Jews in Poland ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nisko_Plan ) But eventually decided to settle the jews further east. We can see that, yes, there were transports to the occupied USSR territories carrying jews, settling them to ghettoes, and yes, we do see jews the Germans had handed off to the Romanians to settle in Transnistria. (I've posted these already). At least in the early stages, this appears to be a legitimate resettlement. The jews in German-occupied territory were put into ghettoes which were rather crappy, these ghettoes were requied to have a council, which would be responsible for meeting German demands (of industrial products, and manpower) and able-bodied men and women were frequently requested for forced labor. It doesn't appear like the Germans intended to create rural villages like the Romanians were doing, rather they preferred to keep them centralized.

At some point though, the resettlement effort seemed to slow down massively, In mainstream sources, I can't find very many population influxes to the east occurring in or after 1943. Probably due to the fact that the Germans didn't want to develop eastern regions after suffering so many military losses, which meant the soviets might capture the regions they intended to settle. So instead, the jews remained in Poland, in massive camps, where disease swept through, causing huge amounts of deaths. The camps were supposed to be a temporary solution, at least until the resettlement east could resume, but this never happened because the war only got worse for the Germans.

Nuremberg quote that corroborates this:
Trials of War Criminals Before the Nuremberg Military Tribunals Under Control Council Law No. 10, Nuernberg, October 1946-April 1949, Volume 13, p. 416 (https://books.google.com/books?id=gcIcA ... &lpg=PA416):

Hans Lammers (Chief of the Reich Chancellery): [Hitler] said, pretty clearly, that he wished that an end might be put to all these Jewish affairs, once and for all. He added that after the war he would make a final decision as to where the Jews were to go. I remember he said that then there would be enough room in the East or in other places where the Jews could be taken."

Q. How did you interpret Hitler's remark that after the end of the war he would decide where the Jews were to go?

A. I thought it was a reference to the various projects concerning the setting up of a separate territory for the Jews, a sort of autonomous Jewish state, or reservation, or whatever you want to call it. There was a lot of talk about such projects at the time."
Another quote:
"The principle of the German Jewish policy after the seizure of power consisted in promoting with all means the Jewish emigration...

The present war gives Germany the opportunity and also the duty of solving the Jewish problem in Europe. In consideration of the favorable course of the war against France, D III proposed in July 1940 as a solution - the removal of all Jews from Europe and the demanding of the Island of Madagascar from France as a territory for the reception of the Jews... The Madagascar plan was enthusiastically accepted by the RSHA...

The Madagascar plan in fact had been outdated as the result of the political development.

The fact that the Führer intends to evacuate all Jews from Europe was communicated to me as early as August 1940 by Ambassador Abetz after an interview with the Führer (compare D III 2298).

Hence, the basic instruction of the Reich Foreign Minister, to promote the evacuation of the Jews in closest cooperation with the agencies of the Reichsführer-SS, is still in force and will therefore be observed by D III...

4. In his letter of June 24, 1940 - Pol XII 136 - SS Lieutenant General Heydrich informed the Reich Foreign Minister that the whole problem of the approximately three and a quarter million Jews in the areas under German control can no longer be solved by emigration - a territorial final solution would be necessary...

5. On the basis of the Führer's instruction mentioned under '4' (above), the evacuation of the Jews from Germany was begun...

The number of Jews deported in this way to the East did not suffice to cover the labor needs there. The RSHA therefore, acting on the instruction of the Reichsführer-SS, approached the Foreign Office to ask the Slovak Government to make 20,000 young, strong Slovak Jews from Slovakia available for deportation to the East...

The intended deportations are a further step forward on the way of the total solution and are in respect to other countries (Hungary) very important. The deportation to the Government General is a temporary measure. The Jews will be moved on further to the occupied Eastern Territories as soon as the technical conditions for it are given."

- Translation of Document No. NG-2586 (J), "Memorandum, from Luther, Under Secretary of State, Berlin, August 21, 1942"



Well that is all a coverup, right? The Germans gassed non-workers at Auschwitz on arrival, right? Well... no... and I even have picture proof:

children at auschwitz.jpg
Auschwitz children 2.png

Children at Auschwitz were not gassed on arrival. In fact, many children are testified to have been born there, they even had dedicated midwives.

Joseph G Burg, Maria Abrams, Benedikt Kautsky are 3 jewish witnesses (Kautsky spent three years at Auschwitz and Joseph G Burg spoke to hundreds of people including crematory staff, and would later go on to become a prominent revisionist) who all testified in court that there were no gas chambers. I could go into this in more detail if necessary, but that's an entirely different rabbit hole.

So there you have it, the resettlement was carried out in the early phases of the war, then was put on hold and jews were amassed in Poland waiting for the opportunity for it to resume, which never arrived for the Germans. Meanwhile, in the east, the jews were engaging in mass uprisings and the Germans were putting them down with extreme brutality, which utterly devastated the populations of jews in the east.
 

Attachments

Last edited:
@Rapechu

before your "big post" let me make two corrections

you said:

So there you have it, the resettlement was carried out in the early phases of the war, then was put on hold and jews were amassed in Poland waiting for the opportunity for it to resume, which never arrived for the Germans.
The "resettlement" stopped because there were no more Jews in Poland except for ones attached to concentration camps or ones still working in the ghettos. The non-working Jews (the ones who historians believe were mass murdered) were gone

This spelled out in the Korherr report. If you're not familiar with it, you should do so now. I think it's the single most important "Holocaust" document

This table dispels your argument

1639283859982.png


There were only 300k Jews in Poland, most of which can be accounted for in specific ghettos and camps.

We also see this--("Russian East" phrasing was originally "special treatment" but Himmler changed it)

1639284011772.png


Revisionists understand "general government" camps to be Belzec Sobibor Treblinka and Warthegau to be Chelmno

Your views here are not in concord with what the leading revisionists believe

Meanwhile, in the east, the jews were engaging in mass uprisings and the Germans were putting them down with extreme brutality, which utterly devastated the populations of jews in the east.

If you cannot show evidence of non-working Jews being maintained in German controlled USSR into 1943, are you saying they all pretty much died through famine/disease/suicide attacks against German army, and survivors scattered and hid?
 
If you cannot show evidence of non-working Jews being maintained in German controlled USSR into 1943, are you saying they all died through famine/disease/suicide attacks against German army?
We do have records of large numbers of jews arriving in eastern ghettoes (not just forced labor). Your counterargument was that the ghettoes they stayed in were all eventually liquidated (or mostly-liquidated), so they must have all been killed or else transferred to some internment camp which does not exist on official records, and I agree with this assertion. So they were probably killed. But I don't think this was an organized genocide, but rather that Himmler realized the situation was out of control, so he took extreme measures to halt the rebellion.
 
We do have records of large numbers of jews arriving in eastern ghettoes (not just forced labor). Your counterargument was that the ghettoes they stayed in were all eventually liquidated (or mostly-liquidated), so they must have all been killed or else transferred to some internment camp which does not exist on official records, and I agree with this assertion. So they were probably killed. But I don't think this was an organized genocide, but rather that Himmler realized the situation was out of control, so he took extreme measures to halt the rebellion.
Possible reason they were interned in ghettos in the first place was due to uprisings and communist movements that were attempted before the war started. The bolshevik civil wars and communist uprisings were attempted in more then just Russia, but we only hear about the successful one (USSR) and not the ones other governments stomped out. Sadly these were very poorly documented, and I don't have a solid source that's trust worthy to lay out everything that happened.
 
6 gorillion kikes is a statistic.

Won't someone think of (or at least mention) the 12 million other people murdered by Socialist Germany?
 
Your counterargument was that the ghettoes they stayed in were all eventually liquidated (or mostly-liquidated), so they must have all been killed or else transferred to some internment camp which does not exist on official records, and I agree with this assertion. So they were probably killed. But I don't think this was an organized genocide, but rather that Himmler realized the situation was out of control, so he took extreme measures to halt the rebellion.
So earlier you said more than half the resettled Jews died of hunger and disease, and we can add to that these large scale killings, which increase the number of dead further into the millions?

It seems like your views are pretty far from typical revisionism. According to metapedia, total deaths are likely between 250k and 750k

1639308216815.png


Now you are closer (maybe much closer) to Holocaust believers in terms of death toll though you still reject the main thesis of organized genocide, instead saying it was a justified response to mass rebellions.

We can test the two hypotheses against available evidence to see which one fits best. Earlier you presented trial testimony from Hans Lammers, an official who seems to have had very little to with the Holocaust or resettlement. Better to go as close to the source as possible

Here Mattogno quotes a report from the governor of Belarus 'Combating Partisans and Aktion Against Jews in the Generalbezirk of Byelorussia' which also talks about the near total planned reduction of Jews in the area. What do you make of it?

btw, the liquidations he is talking about are clearly shootings--see Mattogno's comments at the bottom

1639309154865.png


These shootings don't seem to be in response to uprisings in ghettos. This isn't mentioned once--rather the report concludes on this note: "the danger that the partisans will, in future, derive any important support from the Jews will then have ceased to exist"

According to German records for the same time period (August 1942) , Minsk ghetto had been reduced (by perhaps 90% )to 9,000 Jews. The ghetto was not fully liquidated until October 1943.

EDIT: Forgot that the report continues actually, with Mattogno omitting an important line (different translation here)

There will then be no further danger that the partisans can still rely to any real extent on Jewry. Naturally I and the SD would like it best if Jewry in the Generalbezirk of Byelorussia was finally eliminated after their labor is no longer required by the Wehrmacht. For the time being the essential requirements of the Wehrmacht, the main employer of Jewry, are being taken into consideration.
 
Last edited:
Sooooo......what's the verdict?
Did it happen or not?
Happened, but what has been put in the books is mostly fantasy for political and sympathetic gain. No gas chambers, no gas trucks, no murder coasters. Just starvation, shootings, and disease. The contents of this thread and cited articles are more then enough to prove that.

Unproven part here is if they deserved it or not. I have far less sympathy for people who took part in the communist revolutions because of how many innocent people required to be killed in the process. Maybe they were less brutal then their Russian counterparts, that I don't know.
 
Happened, but what has been put in the books is mostly fantasy for political and sympathetic gain. No gas chambers, no gas trucks, no murder coasters. Just starvation, shootings, and disease. The contents of this thread and cited articles are more then enough to prove that.

Unproven part here is if they deserved it or not. I have far less sympathy for people who took part in the communist revolutions because of how many innocent people required to be killed in the process. Maybe they were less brutal then their Russian counterparts, that I don't know.
I read that most of the ire Nazis had for juice was mainly caused by the rich ones(which were most of them) in Germany. Polish Jews in comparison didn't really do much. They were also apparently poorer than their German counterparts
 
Back