Islam

[melty]

From what I've seen here, a lot of people are opposed to Muslim immigrants. I don't know much about this ideology. All of the Muslims I have met have seemed moderate.
Why is there such opposition to muslim immigration in Europe? Is Islam really a problem or is it just like any other religion?

 

[Doctor Professor Timon]

From what I've seen here, a lot of people are opposed to Muslim immigrants. I don't know much about this ideology. All of the Muslims I have met have seemed moderate.
Why is there such opposition to muslim immigration in Europe? Is Islam really a problem or is it just like any other religion?

Because in countries where they make up more than 10% of a populace or a ruling class, there's usually a great deal of violence, with exceptions such as Syria and Libya - where the leaders were of more, well, 'tolerant' sects of Islam. Wahhabists are usually the more violent sect and the Shiites and Sunnies (sc) are constantly fighting each other.

A Muslim can actually use quotes from their holy book to advocate violence and killing others who don't believe in their faith.

Most other belief systems cannot.

Justifiable is justifiable, even if there are apologeticists trying to say they are extreme and that the holy book in question is peaceful (Islam means Submission - not peace).

 

[AnOminous]

Because in countries where they make up more than 10% of a populace or a ruling class, there's usually a great deal of violence, with exceptions such as Syria and Libya - where the leaders were of more, well, 'tolerant' sects of Islam. Wahhabists are usually the more violent sect and the Shiites and Sunnies (sc) are constantly fighting each other.

A Muslim can actually use quotes from their holy book to advocate violence and killing others who don't believe in their faith.

Most other belief systems cannot.

Almost all other belief systems can. The Bible, for example, is full to the brim of bloody-minded genocidal nonsense.

The difference is Islamists actually do these things. The other religions are mostly composed of members who interpret their religion in a way that doesn't lead to chaos and homicide. (That doesn't mean secular states don't do terrible things, too, but they generally have secular rather than religious justifications for it.)

Islam insists on being at the head of the state, and in every case where there actually is a theocracy based on Islam, it is a shithole.

Like other religions, it is reasonably tame in a secular state, such as Turkey, or where it is definitively in the minority. Individual Muslims are no more inherently violent or "evil" than members of any other religion.

The problem is that much of the Islamic world is still in the same mindset as Christianity was during the Crusades. This just won't fit in in a modern, secular world and pretty much has to be eliminated. It would be preferable for this process to be as peaceful as possible, but submission to it is intolerable and coexistence with it may be impossible.

 

[millais]

Because Merkel herself has admitted that fifty years of multiculturalist social policy have failed to integrate Muslim immigrant communities. When Turkish guest workers first arrived in large numbers in the '60s and '70s, policymakers figured it would only take a decade or two to assimilate them, but instead the immigrant communities ended up self-isolating and rejecting European social norms by and large.

Even more importantly, Europeans are worried about the financial burden of accepting so many migrants during such a poor economic phase for the Eurozone. Although many of the Syrian and Iraqi migrants are middle to upper class with professional training and higher education, on arrival in Europe, most of them require significant job training and education to bring their skillsets up to the standards of the European job market, so almost all of them will be an economic burden reliant on the social service of the state for years to come before they can start paying back into the system. Migrants from places like Somalia, Eritrea, Afghanistan, and Libya have zero marketable skills to begin with and are even more of a burden to European countries.

 

[autisticdragonkin]

All the muslims I have met were upper middle class professionals and quite secular

 

[Joan Nyan]

If you take all the violent or hateful passages out of the bible you're left with a few pages of good messages.

If you take out all the violent or hateful passages out of the koran you're left with nothing.

Honestly I'd like to be proven wrong, if anyone can find anything good in the koran please show me.

 

[autisticdragonkin]

If you take all the violent or hateful passages out of the bible you're left with a few pages of good messages.

If you take out all the violent or hateful passages out of the koran you're left with nothing.

Honestly I'd like to be proven wrong, if anyone can find anything good in the koran please show me.

“Do not invalidate your charities by reminders of your generosity or by injury.”

“Do not mix Truth with falsehood, nor knowingly conceal the Truth.”

“Whoever does an atom’s weight of good will see it,

And whoever does an atom’s weight of evil will see it.”

“Verily! Allah is with those who do good deeds.”

“Do not follow that of which you have no knowledge.

Indeed! The hearing, the sight and the heart — about each of these you will be questioned.”

“O ye who believe!

Do not consume each other’s wealth unjustly, but only in lawful business by mutual consent.

And do not kill yourselves, nor kill one another.

Surely, Allah is Most Merciful to you.”

“And walk not with arrogance.

Indeed, you can never tear the earth apart, nor can you surpass the mountains in height.”

“Do not approach the property of an orphan, except with good intentions.

And keep your promises, for you will be questioned about every promise you make.”

 

[grilledcheesesandwich]

Muslims get a bad rep because their extremists are so batshit but they also have power. Compare them to, say, the Westboro Baptist Church, who has no political power and is mocked by everyone.

 

[Cosmos]

The biggest problem with Islam itself is how intricately tied to politics it is. Islam is both a religion and a political system.

We can talk all day about how other religions (especially Christianity) have been tied to politics, but there's nothing in the doctrines themselves that advocate taking control of politics. Islam has from the very start been intensely political. Ideally, Muslims should live in a country ruled by Sharia law, which is enforced by a Caliph. Obviously, saying that every Muslim wants this is moronic and blatantly untrue. But that doesn't change how it was established by Muhammad himself. From the beginning, Islam has been a “total way of life.” It has provided guidance in every sphere of life, from individual cleanliness, rules of trade, to the structure and politics of society. In other words, it doesn't just provide guidance for one's personal life and affairs, but rather society as a whole. I can't think of any other major religion that's like this.

Personally, I believe that Islamic extremism won't die down (mind you, not disappear entirely) until Islam itself establishes a separation between mosque and state. Christianity became much more benign and more focused on Jesus' actual teachings after the rise of secularism. But the problem is that Jesus never actually said anything about Christians needing to attain power in the first place; quite the opposite, actually (what with the whole "the meek shall inherit the earth" thing and all). Muhammad himself was an intensely political figure and constantly emphasized how important it was for Muslims to establish their own laws. He also constantly asserted the supremacy of Muslims and how they needed to overtake the kaffirs (non-believers) and impose Islamic order.

Anyone who says that politics don't play an important role in Islam is either delusional or a liar.

Again, I don't think all Muslims are evil terrorists who want to murder Christians and drink their blood. In fact, most Muslims you'll talk to have no desire to live in a theocracy and love democracy just like the rest of us. But I think that Islam itself is in serious need for a reformation and is long overdue for one.

 

[KingGeedorah]

I'm sure with 1.6 Billion people in the faith, you're gonna have more then a fair amount of shit heads who try and mess it up.

 

[SpessCaptain]

Apologies for interrupting but a few posts here have been deleted for shallow posting.

Imho I think in any situation a person will use their religious text to justify what they do. There's a lot of other examples of extremist attacks from other religious groups.

 

[Magpie]

My experience with Islam in general is rather minimal, but I am glad I had an opportunity to visit a mosque when I was younger. It was part of a confirmation course I got shoehorned into so a lot of it was mostly discussing the similarities between Christianity and Islam. We also learned about the general culture, rules, and prayers among other things. I cannot quite remember the precise details as this was several years ago, but all and all it was a really pleasant and informative experience. Was a vastly different perspective of Islam that Post 9/11 America really did not offer. Any demographic of people is capable of committing atrocities, religious or not. Saying it's a uniquely Islamic thing is, frankly, disgusting.

Also when I went to go pull up similarities between the Bible and the Qur'an in Google I got this.

When it comes to the specific refugee crisis I don't feel brushed up enough on the subject to speak on it.

 

[MrTroll]

Apologies for interrupting but a few posts here have been deleted for shallow posting.

Imho I think in any situation a person will use their religious text to justify what they do. There's a lot of other examples of extremist attacks from other religious groups.

It's a shame we can't all have extremely deep, profound and insightful thoughts like "people use religious texts to justify bad stuff". Really, really thought-provoking post.

 

[StupidSexyFlanders]

From what I've seen here, a lot of people are opposed to Muslim immigrants. I don't know much about this ideology. All of the Muslims I have met have seemed moderate.
Why is there such opposition to muslim immigration in Europe? Is Islam really a problem or is it just like any other religion?

They don't integrate and actively resist european/western culture. There's alot of muslim segregation in the European capitals because of it which rightly enrages the local population who live there. You'll find that almost all of the support for the immigration comes from communities that are barely affected by it, like the middle class living in suburbs.

 

[MrTroll]

They don't integrate and actively resist european/western culture. There's alot of muslim segregation in the European capitals because of it which rightly enrages the local population who live there. You'll find that almost all of the support for the immigration comes from communities that are barely affected by it, like the middle class living in suburbs.

On the bright side, at least you can get some pretty good falafel in Stockholm now.

 

[DuskEngine]

I think that religion works like any other ideology in that it will say what it needs to say at a given point.

People like to point out that some of ISIS' practices, like the infidel tax and the trading of slaves, have pretty significant precedents in Islamic jurisprudence (which is true) but shariah also, for example, forbids the torture or unlawful execution of prisoners of war, which I'm pretty sure ISIS doesn't give a fuck about.

That's a pretty minor example but it illustrates my point. Even violent fundamentalists need to ignore or distort the bits that don't conform to their goals.

The problem is that much of the Islamic world is still in the same mindset as Christianity was during the Crusades.

I think the Wars of Religion would be a better analogy for where the Islamic world is now.

but there's nothing in the doctrines themselves that advocate taking control of politics.

It was definitely a thing before popular politics took off in Western countries. Monarchs ruled by divine right and all that.

Though as far as I'm aware, the idea of an explicitly religious democracy is pretty specific to Islam. I know some European countries have Christianity as their state religion but afaik that doesn't have a significant influence on policy, unlike places like Iran.

 

[Bertram]

I'm not at all fond of Islam as a religion or as an ideology. All Abrahamic religions (Christianity, Judaism and Islam) incorporate many ancient teachings which amount to "kill people who disagree with _____" where "_____" is either God or his prophet(s). Christianity and Judaism have, in general, become liberal, almost to a point where they're more tradition than religion.
Islam instead chooses to embrace its most barbaric aspects. It is largely for this reason that Islam is overrun with zealots, in my opinion.
Not all Muslims adhere to the more extreme aspects of Islam, but most do. That makes Islam and Islamic migration very dangerous to secular, liberal Europe.
Having established that Islam and the culture which surrounds it are not the friendliest bunch, Islamic migration to Europe has another dangerous potential: reviving the long dormant extreme far right within Europe. We're already seeing Nationalist groups thrive throughout much of eastern Europe (Jobbik comes to mind), who's to say similar groups couldn't catch on in the West? Islamic migration and an economy buckling under the weight of said migration could lead to some unsavory events occurring.
In summary, both Islam and the reactionary far right are bad; the two groups feed into each other endlessly until someone goes about the process of ethnic cleansing.

 

[BT 075]

I have no problem with Muslims as long as they don't tell me my dog, my bacon or my beer is haram. If they want to be traditional, fine with me. If they want to wear funny clothes or have long beards, fine with me. If they want to talk funny languages, fine with me. Just don't tell me what to do. I like their food, love baklava, falavel, shoarma and I understand the anger of some of them at the West, seeing as the West (America and the UK in particular) have fucked their shit up for ages. Still, rightful as their anger may be I'd prefer the angry ones to stay in the desert.

Also, with the birth rates of countries such as Germany being as low as they are, Muslims are the only thing preventing their country from turning into a barren wasteland with no one to eat their giant schnitzels.

 

[Null]

Muslims get a bad rep because their extremists are so batshit but they also have power. Compare them to, say, the Westboro Baptist Church, who has no political power and is mocked by everyone.

Except the Westboro Baptist Church is a legal picketing entity. They do not rebel against the system and work with it because they understand it protects them and they honor that treaty. Muslims want to instate Sharia everywhere they go and are beholden to no laws of man.

 

[BILLY MAYS]

Coming from a place where Islam is the majority (and being Islam myself), I can honestly see the point that Islam can be extreme.

Where I come from, there are groups that, in saying Islamic government is the be all and end all, actually permits at the very least intolerance against other religions, and most interestingly, against other Muslims that are more 'moderate', as these groups also believe that the 'moderates' are tainted by the West (their words) and deemed that they're not true believers, ignoring the fact that Muslims shouldn't judge other Muslims for being unbelievers.