Grace Lavery / Joseph Lavery & Daniel M. Lavery / Mallory Ortberg - "Straight with extra steps" couple trooning out to avoid "dwindling into mere heterosexuality"

[Allo Vera]

So the main problem with the review is that Sarah Ditum conflated miscarriage and abortion, and that is offensive and distressing?



Considering Joe seemed to want the reader to imagine his flaccid penis as like a dead foetus in his hand (because… edgelord?), it seems bizarre to split hairs about using miscarriage and abortion interchangeably. I know which passage I find more offensive, and it isn’t Sarah Ditum’s.

 

[Prescription Bugs]

Joe should never have used the word miscarriage in the first place. A man using miscarriage in describing his penis is like spitting on the grave of a freshly buried child. You effing don’t do it.

Miscarriage is incredibly triggering for so many women. A woman who had a miscarriage (and that’s a lot of women) would never do anything like this, unless she herself was broken or mentally ill. It’s against the unspoken female code of honor. You don’t flippantly mention miscarriage. And about your dick? Good golly.

You will never be accepted among women. Give it up, you absolute ass.

What next, making jokes about cancer, slavery, and the Holocaust? There are some lines you don’t cross, and he’s hell bent on crossing them. If it makes a woman cry or feel sad, even better.

Put your penis away, we are tired of hearing about it. Tired of picturing you with your penis in your hand. Literally stop, shut up.

If you wanted to be a woman then you would just go be one. You might even successfully live as a homely, happy woman if you didn’t constantly do this attention seeking behavior that only shows again and again how you are a man.

 

[Mayhem]

Seeing portions of what he actually wrote has confirmed what we all already knew: he is a disgusting pervert, women’s lives are a joke to him, and he has no business at all calling himself a woman and demanding we all respect it.

Give me top hats. I hate goddamned troons.

Jos, take my advice and cancel your book tour. It won’t be pleasant for you once the British terven get involved, and they will. Stay home, teach your courses on Zoom, and behave yourself because if you lose your job at Berkeley, your career is over. No one else is going to pay you six figures a year to write this drivel and keep you in the Derelicte style to which you’ve become accustomed.

My female life may be boring and worthless but at least I’m not a miserable troon.

 

[Potatis Salad]

So the main problem with the review is that Sarah Ditum conflated miscarriage and abortion, and that is offensive and distressing?

View attachment 2964399

Considering Joe seemed to want the reader to imagine his flaccid penis as like a dead foetus in his hand (because… edgelord?), it seems bizarre to split hairs about using miscarriage and abortion interchangeably. I know which passage I find more offensive, and it isn’t Sarah Ditum’s.

It's "rather embarrassing" that Joe doesn't seem to be aware that "spontaneous abortion" is a synonym for "miscarriage."

It's unclear whether his original text said "miscarried fetus" or "aborted fetus." If the original text said "miscarried," then Sarah Ditum may correctly call it an "erection-abortion."

(If the original text said "aborted," then I'd argue that Sarah Ditum should not have used the word "miscarried" because "abortion" may also refer to non-spontaneous, aka medical or surgical, abortions.)

EDIT: Hol up, Joe already addressed this, or tried to. "Actually painful," what a piece of shit this guy is.


Couldn't agree more:

 

[Prescription Bugs]

At last we agree on something.






We make Dr. Lavery write about his penis. We MAKE him do it! He would never need to write about his penis if we weren’t obscene people. Rapey.

“You made me do it. You made me talk about my penis because you are obscene!”

 

[Allo Vera]

We make Dr. Lavery write about his penis. We MAKE him do it! He would never need to write about his penis if we weren’t obscene people. Rapey.

“You made me do it. You made me talk about my penis because you are obscene!”

It really is a DARVO masterclass. Bravo.

 

[Mellow Malevolent]

when I was assaulted as a girl is.

Exhibit a) as to why troons (AGP in particular) who claim to experience misogyny just like women are lying. They fucking fetishize it, they treat it as an exciting thing, they define womanhood by it. I doubt the actually care about it stopping, because for them it's validation.

 

[Constellationzero]

Seeing portions of what he actually wrote has confirmed what we all already knew: he is a disgusting pervert, women’s lives are a joke to him, and he has no business at all calling himself a woman and demanding we all respect it.

Give me top hats. I hate goddamned troons.

Jos, take my advice and cancel your book tour. It won’t be pleasant for you once the British terven get involved, and they will. Stay home, teach your courses on Zoom, and behave yourself because if you lose your job at Berkeley, your career is over. No one else is going to pay you six figures a year to write this drivel and keep you in the Derelicte style to which you’ve become accustomed.

My female life may be boring and worthless but at least I’m not a miserable troon.

Nope, I'm right there with you. Years ago, when I was in college (pre-ClownWorld), we had a short window where a professor like SideShow could not only be reported to the department head or dean, but the complainer would be LISTENED TO and TAKEN SERIOUSLY because colleges and community colleges took THEMSELVES SERIOUSLY as places for academic learning, discussion, and growth.

This EMM AYY ENN in a goofy thrift store dress from Salvation Army is D-I-S-G-U-S-T-I-N-G.
I thought places like Rutgers really lost it by hiring the likes of Kevin "tard scribbles" Allred. But they actually redeemed themselves by doing the RIGHT thing and firing him. Just wondering when Berkeley will start getting sick and tired of being sick and tired.

 

[Twiggez-Vous]

Comments. It seems the good denizens of terf island -the times readers at least- are having none of Lavery's 'shite'.

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Frankly the timing of the Joe-Joyce debate (if it goes ahead) in the light of the publication of his crass, stupid memoir couldn't be better.

 

[pursuitsnail]

Maybe people wouldn't have to use stilted language like 'people with penises' that directly reference anatomy and bodily functions if others weren't playing games redefining women, eh Joe?

i'm probably reading too much into it, but his dumb definition that seems to suggest that women only exist during sex and in the relative safety and leisure of capitalist economies reminds me a bit of MRA logic. It implies that rather than being a description of material reality for adult human females, that it's a role that only exists because society requires fuckholes and sammich-makers. That in pre-agricultural communities and in post-apocalyptic end times women simply do not exist.

Woman is turned into what one does rather than what one is. Woman is a service one performs. A cultural artifact. It's like seeing 'woman' as the same as 'eunuch', or even 'accountant'. Sows, cows, and hens exist without societies and economies to define them into reality. Women.. not so much in Joe's mind. Like, I get the desire to try to dodge biological essentialism to advance women's rights. But this is where you end up when you try to pretend it's all arbitrary social structures. And Joe (maybe intentionally) misses that by claiming simple minds want simple definitions and divorces himself from reality.

 

[Mellow Malevolent]

Maybe people wouldn't have to use stilted language like 'people with penises' that directly reference anatomy and bodily functions if others weren't playing games redefining women, eh Joe?

i'm probably reading too much into it, but his dumb definition that seems to suggest that women only exist during sex and in the relative safety and leisure of capitalist economies reminds me a bit of MRA logic. It implies that rather than being a description of material reality for adult human females, that it's a role that only exists because society requires fuckholes and sammich-makers. That in pre-agricultural communities and in post-apocalyptic end times women simply do not exist.

Woman is turned into what one does rather than what one is. Woman is a service one performs. A cultural artifact. It's like seeing 'woman' as the same as 'eunuch', or even 'accountant'. Sows, cows, and hens exist without societies and economies to define them into reality. Women.. not so much in Joe's mind. Like, I get the desire to try to dodge biological essentialism to advance women's rights. But this is where you end up when you try to pretend it's all arbitrary social structures. And Joe (maybe intentionally) misses that by claiming simple minds want simple definitions and divorces himself from reality.

You're being far too charitable. I guarantee you he doesn't have as pithy a definition for men ready to deploy. There's no easy way to sum up all economic roles men are assumed to occupy, yet I doubt Jo would say that therefore, men don't exist. You could say that they are the presumed active partner in sex I guess, but in terms of the labor they produce or the positions the occupy, only women can be summed up as dismissively as Jo is doing. And it is meant to be dismissive of women, not empowering. It is literally a definition of womanhood that is all about being vessels for male sexuality, and literally nothing else.


Troons turning "women are other things that just birthing machines" into "birth is irrelevant to womanhood" is part of the fucked up post-modernism we live in. You don't have to be some sort of radical feminazi misandrist to think that society should consider more than just male perspectives in terms of how it plans itself, or that women can be more than just wives and mothers. But 51% of the human population has almost every aspect of the biology evolved for or affected by the fact that they will carry children, something that is fundamentally required for humanity as a whole to continue existing. Trying to shear away womanhood from that reality if fucking perverse, and really could only come from a fucked-up coombrained man. Womanhood and motherhood are inextricably linked. Even women who are unable to have children are affected and judged by that, as are women who choose to terminate pregnancies. It's pretty amazingly misogynistic when you realize that troons are essentially making it impossible for a majority of humanity to advocate for themselves without twisting into linguistic pretzels.

 

[Boris Blank's glass eye]

Maybe people wouldn't have to use stilted language like 'people with penises' that directly reference anatomy and bodily functions if others weren't playing games redefining women, eh Joe?

i'm probably reading too much into it, but his dumb definition that seems to suggest that women only exist during sex and in the relative safety and leisure of capitalist economies reminds me a bit of MRA logic. It implies that rather than being a description of material reality for adult human females, that it's a role that only exists because society requires fuckholes and sammich-makers. That in pre-agricultural communities and in post-apocalyptic end times women simply do not exist.

Woman is turned into what one does rather than what one is. Woman is a service one performs. A cultural artifact. It's like seeing 'woman' as the same as 'eunuch', or even 'accountant'. Sows, cows, and hens exist without societies and economies to define them into reality. Women.. not so much in Joe's mind. Like, I get the desire to try to dodge biological essentialism to advance women's rights. But this is where you end up when you try to pretend it's all arbitrary social structures. And Joe (maybe intentionally) misses that by claiming simple minds want simple definitions and divorces himself from reality.

Maybe Joe fell in love at first sight with a woman he saw on the internet. After all, her most famous words sum up Joe's kind of postmodernism perfectly:

Sounds like Joe's kind of poetry as well.
I WANT TO BELIEVE

All jokes aside Joe's retardation circles right back into the bioessentialism feminists of old fought against. Now instead of being seen solely as breeders he wants women purely as fetish fuel for and accessories to his degeneracy - kind of like most AGPs. The language some current guidelines are pushing seem to be taken straight out of The Handmaid's Tale, something women were told would become reality under Drunalt-right Drumpft and his Right-Wing Death Squads - instead the very "side" that claimed to be defending them is throwing every woman under the AGP train and is gaslighting them into submission. (I'll take your Moais gracefully)

 

[Swimminglanes]

Maybe Joe fell in love at first sight with a woman he saw on the internet. After all, her most famous words sum up Joe's kind of postmodernism perfectly:

Sounds like Joe's kind of poetry as well.
I WANT TO BELIEVE

All jokes aside Joe's retardation circles right back into the bioessentialism feminists of old fought against. Now instead of being seen solely as breeders he wants women purely as fetish fuel for and accessories to his degeneracy - kind of like most AGPs. The language some current guidelines are pushing seem to be taken straight out of The Handmaid's Tale, something women were told would become reality under Drunalt-right Drumpft and his Right-Wing Death Squads - instead the very "side" that claimed to be defending them is throwing every woman under the AGP train and is gaslighting them into submission. (I'll take your Moais gracefully)

Frankly the timing of the Joe-Joyce debate (if it goes ahead) in the light of the publication of his crass, stupid memoir couldn't be better.

There are tickets available free for his Exeter event. Shame if there's a load of no shows.

 

[pursuitsnail]

You're being far too charitable. I guarantee you he doesn't have as pithy a definition for men ready to deploy. There's no easy way to sum up all economic roles men are assumed to occupy, yet I doubt Jo would say that therefore, men don't exist. You could say that they are the presumed active partner in sex I guess, but in terms of the labor they produce or the positions the occupy, only women can be summed up as dismissively as Jo is doing. And it is meant to be dismissive of women, not empowering. It is literally a definition of womanhood that is all about being vessels for male sexuality, and literally nothing else.


Troons turning "women are other things that just birthing machines" into "birth is irrelevant to womanhood" is part of the fucked up post-modernism we live in. You don't have to be some sort of radical feminazi misandrist to think that society should consider more than just male perspectives in terms of how it plans itself, or that women can be more than just wives and mothers. But 51% of the human population has almost every aspect of the biology evolved for or affected by the fact that they will carry children, something that is fundamentally required for humanity as a whole to continue existing. Trying to shear away womanhood from that reality if fucking perverse, and really could only come from a fucked-up coombrained man. Womanhood and motherhood are inextricably linked. Even women who are unable to have children are affected and judged by that, as are women who choose to terminate pregnancies. It's pretty amazingly misogynistic when you realize that troons are essentially making it impossible for a majority of humanity to advocate for themselves without twisting into linguistic pretzels.

He needs our charity. How else is he going to get that next must-have fashion disaster?

They need to shear biology away from social roles in order to create a womanhood men can take for their own. In a way, it's kind of surprising we haven't seen Joe writing about his periods (or rather when he had too much Taco Bell), because the whole uterus implantation thing is just so, so much grosser. Maybe it's just better for the fetish and attention.

Maybe Joe fell in love at first sight with a woman he saw on the internet. After all, her most famous words sum up Joe's kind of postmodernism perfectly:

Sounds like Joe's kind of poetry as well.
I WANT TO BELIEVE

All jokes aside Joe's retardation circles right back into the bioessentialism feminists of old fought against. Now instead of being seen solely as breeders he wants women purely as fetish fuel for and accessories to his degeneracy - kind of like most AGPs. The language some current guidelines are pushing seem to be taken straight out of The Handmaid's Tale, something women were told would become reality under Drunalt-right Drumpft and his Right-Wing Death Squads - instead the very "side" that claimed to be defending them is throwing every woman under the AGP train and is gaslighting them into submission. (I'll take your Moais gracefully)

It's moai I'm sure, but both are interested in hierarchies. One wants to return people to their proper place within them, the other to place their favored groups on top in order to rectify past oppression. Between them both, we keep ending up at fuckholes and sammich-makers. And Joe. We end up with Joe. I'd say he wants to be on top, but he brags about being pegged.

 

[Mayhem]

Nope, I'm right there with you. Years ago, when I was in college (pre-ClownWorld), we had a short window where a professor like SideShow could not only be reported to the department head or dean, but the complainer would be LISTENED TO and TAKEN SERIOUSLY because colleges and community colleges took THEMSELVES SERIOUSLY as places for academic learning, discussion, and growth.

This EMM AYY ENN in a goofy thrift store dress from Salvation Army is D-I-S-G-U-S-T-I-N-G.
I thought places like Rutgers really lost it by hiring the likes of Kevin "tard scribbles" Allred. But they actually redeemed themselves by doing the RIGHT thing and firing him. Just wondering when Berkeley will start getting sick and tired of being sick and tired.

A few things are certain, or near-certain:

1. His department chair and dean are not pleased with his sideshows on social media, particularly his openly fucking a former student. (Lily had better watch her ass, too, as students really love to see their professors nude on social media. I’m being sarcastic here.)
2. Even elite liberal arts universities like Berkeley are feeling pressure to produce graduates that will enter the workforce quickly and make a lot of money, which will produce solid numbers for the state legislature and a large pool of potential alumni donors. That means less opportunity for Joe to teach seminars on gay poetry.
3. Tenure doesn’t make him invincible. There are a million young people in America right now who have not enrolled in a college or university who would normally be there. Humanities departments all over the country are being contracted or even eliminated in response to student demands — or lack thereof. Again, even less opportunity for Joe to teach seminars on gay poetry.
4. Joe’s Substack has been an utter failure and it looks like he has spent most of his advance money. It also doesn’t look like he and Mallory made the decision to invest their money into real estate, but instead squandered it on consooming designer clothing, pets, and tea kettles like a common nouveau riche.
5. The New York Review of Books doesn’t need another troon (they have their token with Andrea Long Chu, who is also a Troon of Color), and he’s not nearly as good a writer as he thinks he is. So where is he going to go when teaching the great unwashed masses at Berkeley becomes beneath him?

I can just imagine Joe and Mallory, reading the manuscript for Please Miss in their apartment that once had the potential to be an eclectic meeting place for the artists of Carroll Gardens but is now becoming a sad, messy, fading hovel, like Baby Jane or Madonna. The smell of kombucha and dog shit reigns. Mallory assures him that his novel is deeply clever and makes her want to fuck him in extremely gay ways, but neither of them can perform sexually because they have been poisoning their bodies with artificial sex hormones. They are also both fat now, and aging, and before long, they will be old, melted queers who are snickered at by the young club kids with stars in their eyes, the ones who think they invented how to be gay. Eventually they go to bed, loveless and lonely, and think of Grey Gardens.

I’d feel sorry for them. But I don’t. Neither of them are nearly as clever, interesting, or kind as they think they are. New York City is not a real place, just like Twitter, to quote Dave Chapelle, is not a real place.

I take back my effort to convince Joe not to do his book tour. (By the way, is he teaching this semester? Or is he drawing a salary for doing nothing at all, unlike the working classes he thinks he has solidarity with? I thought he had just taken sabbatical to work on this book.) Jos, please do the book tour. I am looking forward to the manna from cow heaven, sweet honey for my ugly soul, that will come when you are destroyed by the terfs you despise in the debates you foolishly agreed to do. The cope and seethe will be of epic proportions.

 

[FarmVille]

Nope, I'm right there with you. Years ago, when I was in college (pre-ClownWorld), we had a short window where a professor like SideShow could not only be reported to the department head or dean, but the complainer would be LISTENED TO and TAKEN SERIOUSLY because colleges and community colleges took THEMSELVES SERIOUSLY as places for academic learning, discussion, and growth.

This EMM AYY ENN in a goofy thrift store dress from Salvation Army is D-I-S-G-U-S-T-I-N-G.
I thought places like Rutgers really lost it by hiring the likes of Kevin "tard scribbles" Allred. But they actually redeemed themselves by doing the RIGHT thing and firing him. Just wondering when Berkeley will start getting sick and tired of being sick and tir

Yea you’re seeing through some thick rose colored goggles. Tenured profs have always gotten away with dogshit behavior, the only difference is they weren’t on twitter.

Most people commenting in this thread have a really bizarre idea about how higher ed works. No one at Berkeley gives a fuck about Joe. Joe is a teeny tiny little fish in the UC system. English departments bring in no money, they’re usually lucky if they get housed in a building with running water.

Berkeley is known for computer science and engineering, those departments are the ones that get grants, tuition, names on fancy new buildings, etc. PhDs from these schools are the ones who get funded and hired. It’s understood terminal degrees in social studies will lead to an adjunct position at a community college if you’re lucky.

But holy fuck how is this guy 38? If you held a gun (or a limp dick) to my head and asked me to be polite I would have said "53"

The troon life is some hard living

Quite.
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What in the farm fresh fuck is he wearing in that last one?

I know I am autisting up this thread, but I have seen this dude's antics on Twitter and I am shook to my core that this is the face of someone under 50.

If I remember my episodes of Wishbone correctly there's probably a portrait of him in some attic getting younger.

 

[Dromedary]

Buy this chica and her 884 heart-likers all the drinks. Interesting thread!

https://twitter.com/therestofus5/status/1490696379899035650

Is Joe retconning that he never claimed to be a woman or got mad when people refused to use female pronouns for him?

Edit: Okay, whoa I have been incredibly out of the loop today. I read Sarah Ditum's excellent review and the scathing reactions to Joe on Twitter have been most gratifying, like young Joe felt wearing his mum's stolen panties, but different. I can't agree with Ditum that the "staggering penis" subtitle is something genius she wishes she had come up with. But I suppose it's better than Joe's previous subtitle luridly mocking Anne Frank's death in the Holocaust.

-Ditum's review seems to be peaking a lot of people, mostly women naturally and it's all a great thing. All she had to do was quote Joe's absolutely fucking revolting comparison of his limp dick with a dead fetus and so many peakenings. Joe took umbrage and had a hissy over how he wrote about his dick as a miscarried fetus not an aborted one, completely oblivious to how insane and vile and disgusting it still sounds.

-These are early days, I hope many more reviews are to come. If I were a book reviewer, I'd love the chance to review honest-to-god messy piece of shit by a pretentious self-declared pervert who has no sense of boundaries and is also a raging misogynist. Joe is taking Ditum's review badly, despite his ha-ha I'm FINE with this posture on Twitter. I hope as bad reviews trickle or pour in that he realizes his jerk-off lazy deluded ideas about everything will smack up against reality and the world (beyond his cooing no-hoper fans on Twitter ) really gives him the scrutiny and attention he craves. It's gonna be ugly and I m here for it.

-One of his Twitter groupies the other day said, "Oh Grace, I bet you'd be a GREAT parent!!" because they're all mental patients. Seriously, in what WORLD, what sort of FREAK would think that Joe "Children aren't innocent." Lavery would be a great parent?

- FTM Troonies are flailing to discredit Sarah Ditum. A hive mind all writing the same thing. She writes that FTM's don't write their transition stories in such a nakedly sexual pornographic way as MtF perverts like Joe do. So these dullards take that to mean Sarah Ditum is saying, "FtMs never get horny." Hopeless cases.

 

[Law]

The overwhelming majority of miscarriages are basically extra-heavy periods, not a penis-sized baby you can hold in your hand to score metaphor points. They're also very common, with 1 in 4 pregnancies ending in a miscarriage.

What next, making jokes about cancer, slavery, and the Holocaust?

That's why I made an account here.

 

[Mayhem]

Yea you’re seeing through some thick rose colored goggles. Tenured profs have always gotten away with dogshit behavior, the only difference is they weren’t on twitter.

Most people commenting in this thread have a really bizarre idea about how higher ed works. No one at Berkeley gives a fuck about Joe. Joe is a teeny tiny little fish in the UC system. English departments bring in no money, they’re usually lucky if they get housed in a building with running water.

Berkeley is known for computer science and engineering, those departments are the ones that get grants, tuition, names on fancy new buildings, etc. PhDs from these schools are the ones who get funded and hired. It’s understood terminal degrees in social studies will lead to an adjunct position at a community college if you’re lucky.

Social media has changed a lot. Yes, Joe is still an adult and is free to display his hedonistic lifestyle openly on his Instagram (which he links to on his faculty webpage) and no, he is unlikely to get fired for anything he posts there unless he makes the university look really bad (i.e. “children aren’t innocent”). But there are other ways to force people out, and folks in the Humanities are masters at passive-aggression. Everyone in his department knows about what he’s up to, and guaranteed, very few, if any, of them approve.

Personally, I think Jos will get bored of teaching pretty soon. I took a look at his classes for this semester and the fall, and they are soft. “Introduction to the Study of Drama” is a typical second or third-year course for lit or drama majors. His course on sitcoms doesn’t appear to have a lot of rigor, even for a humanities course; he doesn‘t mention a theoretical framework or additional readings unless that’s in the actual syllabus. And besides, why should he make the cross-country flight to sit in a shitty classroom in Berkeley to teach undergraduates when glamorous book tours and terf debates await him?

 

[homewayhalf]

Has Joe ever posted about, say, women in Iran getting jailed for not wearing hijab or that tennis player in China who got memoryholed after accusing her coach of rape? He goes around calling himself a feminist but the real plights of women (besides his abortion fixation) seem completely removed from his awareness.