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Grace Lavery / Joseph Lavery & Daniel M. Lavery / Mallory Ortberg - "Straight with extra steps" couple trooning out to avoid "dwindling into mere heterosexuality"
Seriously could this have worked out better for his superiors at Berkeley? If you were a full-on conspiracy theorist, you'd nearly think his removal had been engineered. I know that it hasn't, but how very convenient for them.
We don't want him btw. Couldn't the Republic of Ireland have him, he sounds Irish and you only need one grandparent to claim a passport.
Seriously could this have worked out better for his superiors at Berkeley? If you were a full-on conspiracy theorist, you'd nearly think his removal had been engineered. I know that it hasn't, but how very convenient for them.
We don't want him btw. Couldn't the Republic of Ireland have him, he sounds Irish and you only need one grandparent to claim a passport.
Eh thanks, but no. I think Ireland has suffered enough from the rest of the world's discarded "problem priests" to be getting your surplus troons, too.
Interestingly I don't care; Off Twitter where he is not spreading his bad takes I am happy for him to live his boringly fucked up life, bathe in his own incompetency - but I have no desire to join him.
Lavery knows he will never have a vagina, but a pussy? That pornified vision of the vagina? That reductive view of women as holes that need filling? That he can have.
I was tempted to refer to Lavery as the Rachel Dolezal of transgenderism. But actually, he’s far worse than Dolezal. To be like Lavery, Dolezal would need to go on endlessly about the glistening skin of blacks, and how she longs to achieve their full-lipped look, and how she longs to see and grasp those famous full-bodied black cocks. If Dolezal did any of that, we would recognise it instantly as vile racism. So why are so few people willing to call out the sexism of trans activists who believe that blokes can become women simply by announcing that they are women, simply by imagining that they have a pussy, simply by taking some titty skittles so that they can look like those sluts in porn films? Ms Dolezal is white, and Mr Lavery is a man. We just have to start saying this now, out loud.
This is brilliant. Everything that no-one in the U.S. is allowed to say, all laid out unabashedly. Starts funny, stays funny but ramps up the seriousness of the implications of all this trans bullshit.
It's hilarious to me that Joe is in the U.K. just as the tide seems to be sharply turning: yesterday the Health secretary announced an investigation into the 'treatment' of 'trans children'. O'Neill chooses this moment to destroy his book, and he can't even complain on twitter to rally all the U.S. ideologues because he wished death on the queen.
Hopefully he's busy enjoying the Jubilee while he's basking in the esteem of his compatriots, what ho.
Regrettably, I think Joe will love it too. I suspect this is exactly the sort of response he was looking to inspire, where he gets to sit back with his nose in the air acting put-upon and superior in the face of terven opprobrium. But at least we get some laughs in the process.
Regrettably, I think Joe will love it too. I suspect this is exactly the sort of response he was looking to inspire, where he gets to sit back with his nose in the air acting put-upon and superior in the face of terven opprobrium. But at least we get some laughs in the process.
He and the terminally online TRAs love to do this to WOMEN. Women are easy to dismiss and make fun of. I don't think he was expecting a full on beardy man to write the most scathing of his reviews.
Here's Helen Joyce, the sort of person he likes to yell about (but will not actually debate):
She's even smiling, because if she doesn't, she knows everyone will dismiss her as a massive vindictive bitch.
Now here's who actually rocked up to call Joe a porn-addled misogynist:
I disagree that he will love it. The review is brutal, and it's coming from another man, which means that he can't mentally dismiss it as easily. It strips through all of his pretensions and shows him for what he is: a sad, mediocre, pornsick man.
You love to see it.
Edit: A few more thoughts after reading the takedown.
1. It's hilarious that out of all the people in this thread--a collection of autists who pay more attention to Joe than anyone else on the internet--no one could even bring themselves to read his shitty book all the way through. Hell, even Manhunt has its own discussion thread. The power of autism lost out to the sheer tedium of Joe's writing.
2. The part about Mumsnet was really enlightening. There's such seething rage and hatred among troons for motherhood, and such a push to destroy it and remove all words referring to it. The rage of the worst of r/childfree has nothing on MtF seething. Maybe because the production of children reminds these men that they are simulacra: there is no function behind the form they are imitating, and they don't even have the system that could potentially support that function. Motherhood constantly reminds them that the female sex has what they do not have.
3. Joe doesn't know how vaginas work. Not surprising, I guess.
You see a fat guy tarding out in public. Joe sees a shocking and dangerous artist intellectual defying the morals and mores of his time. I really do think his self-concept is some kinda Oscar Wilde meets Lord Byron literary demigod.
He and the terminally online TRAs love to do this to WOMEN. Women are easy to dismiss and make fun of. I don't think he was expecting a full on beardy man to write the most scathing of his reviews.
Here's Helen Joyce, the sort of person he likes to yell about (but will not actually debate):
View attachment 3211659 She's even smiling, because if she doesn't, she knows everyone will dismiss her as a massive vindictive bitch.
Don’t underestimate Helen Joyce: she recently admitted that when she agreed to debate Lavery, she’d got her Twitter transwomen mixed up and thought she was agreeing to debate Katy Montgomery. Which is so deliciously savage. One of my top tier TERFs.
Joe is having a seething meltdown at Brendan O'Neill in the comments of Instagram. It's a pain in the ass to document a conversation like this from Instagram. I'll try to make it easy to read with two options.
would @burntoakboy care to respond to the accusation that he skimmed the index of please miss, but didn’t in fact read it cover to cover, or even read most of it beyond the keywords he found in the index at which he wanted to feign an apoplectic, patrician outrage? 4h
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@grace.lavery.pangolin Hello! I read every page of it, right from where you describe your dick as feeling like a dead fetus and a baby’s spine through to your rumination on the “sourness” of the leaky-boobs who criticise trans ideas, and all of the pseudo-shocking, sub-Warhol porn-lite stuff in between. Five hours of my life I’ll never get back 3h
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@burntoakboy oh hi, simpleton! could you please explain (1) why you seem to think that the book’s narrator demands to be addressed as “miss lavery,” when in fact various people who do so are swiftly repudiated; (2) why you think the passage on Austin Powers you quote refers to Mars Attacks!, a movie which does not include any femmebots, but which I refer to at the beginning of the Austin Powers passage to make a link to a much earlier discussion; (3) what you thought of “The desire to turn into a woman proves that you aren’t one; desire and identity are antithetical principles.” on p.4, and how it squares with your self-pitying complaint that “woe betide those who refuse to bow down to the idea that this dick obsessed with his dick is in fact a woman.” I’m also interested to hear more of your claim that “women don’t refer to their breasts as titties,” but I’ll leave that matter to my more qualified colleagues. But thank you, in any case, for amply exemplifying both the literal and political illiteracy of the laughable “anti-woke left” from which you have profited so impressively. One for the scrapbook. 3h
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@grace.lavery.pangolin Hey! No need for name calling, surely? You’re quite right, you do ironically criticise people who call you Miss Lavery and insist — like a “cunt”: your word — that they call you Dr Lavery . To my simpleton working-class mind, this suggests you exhibit class privilege as well as the other privilege, which I shan’t name on here. I have to be careful what I say, given that the capitalist oligarchies who run these websites are entirely on your side, and they will giddily crush people like me for committing certain speechcrimes against the new managerial and cultural elites. And yes, I should have made clear that the women *I* know and associate with — who tend to be working-class women — never, ever say the word “titties”. I accept that the more hyper-online, ironic women you mix with might be different. That’s cool. 3h
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@burntoakboy Ah, you remember! Or did you flick through the review copy in the last ten minutes? We’ll never know—sadly you’d already committed the error in print and there’s no turning back. You must be kicking yourself! Anyway—of course you’re right, *working class* women are famous for referring to their bodies in only the most austere, guileless ways. I grew up on an estate, as you doubtless recall from having read my memoir, so I can do the special-boy routine just as well as you can. But just as a matter of interest, these offline working-class women who are often talking to you about their breasts, but only using the word “breasts” to refer to said breasts, do they have anything else in common? Asking in case there might be another vector here that we’re just not accessing—working class lads made good though we are… 3h
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@burntoakboy and i’m sure you’ll want to make the appropriate corrections to the article in re. my cuntiness, and of course to modify your claim—would you mind it I called it preposterous?—that working class women don’t refer to their breasts as “titties.” Do you know, Brendan, even now I believe there are plenty of working-class women compiling databases of other members of their class doing exactly that. Wouldn’t it be a wonderful think to have one’s own stupid opinions of the world overturned, here on instagram of all places! 3h
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@burntoakboy the choice to make the broad assumption that all cis women who believe in and support @grace.lavery.pangolin 's work are not working class and are "hyper online" and "ironic" and clearly cannot think for themselves kind of goes against your whole speaking for feminism thing I'm not entirely sure what you think you're accomplishing in the greater scheme of "capitalist oligarchs" but I can promise you that you'd be doing far better work to contribute to society by volunteering at your local soup kitchen. 3h
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@kit.schh oh yes, of course the ideology that dominates *literally every legacy media outlet*, the *UK government*, and the *BBC*, despite comprising fewer than four thousand people, is the brassy insurgent class war, and the actual lives of working people (a disproportionate number of whom—gasp!—are in fact trans ourselves) hardly merit discussion when there’s a culture war to be won. 3h
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@grace.lavery.pangolin I actually referred to my notes, which are copious and depressing. There is much I did not include in the review, primarily to spare you severe criticism, if I am to be soppily honest. This includes the three instances (I believe) in which you compare your penis to a baby’s anatomy. I knew this would bring you extraordinary amounts of abuse, so I left it out. It might be true that you and I both started out as working class lads, but I think it’s fair to say that one has gone that way, and one the other way. I did not say working class women refer to their bodies in an austere, *guileless* way — I simply said they do not say “titties”. How revealing that you would interpret a refusal to say titties as representative of a lack of guile. I just respect the words women use, especially the words used by women who, unlike you, do not enjoy the extraordinary privileges of academic life and a severe protection from criticism enforced by capitalist oligarchies. Those are the women I know best. 3h
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@burntoakboy “I just respect the words that women use, and it just so happens that working class women never say “titties,”” is your argument? Well, as the extremely online kids say: big if true. As for sparing me the abuse—what a boner on your part! You must be devastated to see your own followers calling me a pedophile and a rapist on your thread. I can see now that your opportunistic, dishonest, and—as your hilariously inadequate attempts to wriggle in this thread have proven—utterly patriarchal bollocks has, in fact, been merely misappropriated by the bigots who happen to follow you and pay your bills. *You’re* a sweetheart, Brendan—don’t let those capitalist oligarchs (whose dicks, if I may, you might consider sucking) kick you in the arse on the way out. 2h
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@grace.lavery.pangolin Grace, stop. We cannot have an honest discussion on here because of the censorship enforced by, yes, *capitalist oligarchs*. If I am not mistaken, you have marshalled the power of these capitalist oligarchies to punish speechcriminals, including Graham Linehan, right? You have the upper hand here, because capitalism’s prejudices coalesce with yours. So there is no scope for a free, honest discussion. THIS is the problem. It’s even worse for women than it is for me, of course. So, my honest opinions are on spiked — a completely free zone — while on here I will always be restrained by the fact that my views run counter to those of the boss class, while yours marry with them beautifully. You have reverted to your church and lured me in for discussion, which is unfair because I am a heretic in the eyes of the capitalists who support you. 2h
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@grace.lavery.pangolin it's also interesting how @burntoakboy rages against the capitalist oligarchs that run these websites but not those that run mainstream media (as THOSE capitalist oligarchs are on "his side", of course), as he fanboys over Elon Musk (who is definitely known as an ally to working class people lol) on Instagram and suggests that Elon would do a better job of "returning free speech" to Twitter (by allowing him to continue anti-trans rhetoric and silencing those who are trans, no doubt). This co-opting of leftist and feminist language by those who purport to be working class allies and yet in all their actions align themselves so clearly with Conservatives and hate groups makes me a little ill, but I suppose we on the left have our own lessons to learn about language vs intention vs action. Loved your book btw! 2h
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@burntoakboy would love a direct response to myself, as a "cis feminist working class woman", as to why my supporting @grace.lavery.pangolin is somehow supporting the boss class! That's wild news to me! Quickly, without telling me I'm brainwashed or in a cult, or in some other way suggesting I'm crazy or hysterical or can't think for myself- talking points that have NEVER been used against women before 2h
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@burntoakboy ah, you can’t call me a man? which is what you are aching to do. what hope is there for honesty without that? what hope is there—for example—for an answer to a question like “how much were you paid to pretend to have read my book?” but never mind. it is, nonetheless, rather odd, don’t you think, that all the *actual* bosses seem to support you? I wonder if you’re aware, for example, that you’re talking to someone who was kicked off twitter not—like those whose tears have been licked up by the BBC and the Mail recently—for randomly accusing educators of being pedophiles and mocking the appearance of teenagers—but for stating an opinion on Her Maj that was, once a time, shall we say, mainstream? Of course we all know what you really mean by “boss class,” and we all know it has as little to with Marxism as Bruno Bauer had to do with the critique of the Gotha Program. Be that as it may, please: feel free to call me a man here, and I will ask that others not report you for doing so, and let’s see the great honest truth of which you are clearly throbbing to unburden yourself. (Sorry, Brendan, that’s a dick joke. I know working class lads like you don’t like them, but here on Instagram… oh I can’t even be bothered to pander to your simpering any more.) But please: the floor is yours. 2h
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@kit.schh (could also add that claiming that feminists are defacing or undermining the sacred concept of womanhood—which is the lad’s move here—is the signature strategy of patriarchy.) 2h
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@grace.lavery.pangolin I love a dick joke. When I was growing up, people with dicks told dick jokes all the time (we grew out of them around the age of 21 or 22). I absolutely refute your invitation to say “you are a man”, because I know what the capitalist oligarchs’ response will be. You have no idea of the privilege you enjoy. Class wise, identity wise, capitalism wise — privilege upon privilege. The privileged are always the last to clock their privilege. You carry on talking about your dead-fetus penis, and I’ll carry on challenging the new structures of capitalism and censorship. Good luck to you, Grace. 2h
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@burntoakboy ironically, my reply to your comment was indeed censored by instagram. let me rephrase:
ah, we end on a phantom. thank you, Brendan, for proving in a single clause that your ridiculous movement’s passionate defense of free speech stops at the edge of your very narrow, very silly ideology. (“state licenses for lesbians? sounds like a great idea. we’re left wing. ”). i can’t think of a more discrediting set of defenses of your shoddy position than these replies—piling lie on classist, patriarchal lie—all in order to avoid answering a direct question: why did you pretend to read my book, and attribute to it not one but several positions that it criticizes from the diametrical opposite position? but who cares. enjoy the (i assume substantial) wealth you have extracted out of the disgusted of tunbridge wells whom you have, rather brilliantly, persuaded are a revolutionary class. i bet you have a very nice car. 2h
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@burntoakboy so no response or engagement with me? bummer you can carry on those delusions of being a beaten-down working class hero for ~women~ against those ~scary trans monsters~ for a little bit longer I suppose! 2h
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@kit.schh he only talks to women if they are (1) working class; (2) offline; (3) speaking respectfully about their breasts; (4) transphobic. so i fear you may be waiting a while 2h
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@grace.lavery.pangolin I read your book cover to cover. I disliked it immensely. I thought it was narcissistic and sexist. I’ve made this clear. One is permitted to express these opinions in the free-ish world outside of social media — numerous working people died for our right to do so. I consider myself a class-based leftist, which means I prioritise class over identity, class over sex, class over race. Old fashioned, I know. What animates me is social revolution, not self reinvention. I think we have reached the end of what we can legitimately say on here, a sphere always being policed by the capitalist oligarchs — and, no, I do not consider Musk, a rival capitalist oligarch, to be the saviour of freedom. You have me mixed up with 4Chan. If you want to carry on the discussion elsewhere, let me know. Good luck Grace 2h
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@burntoakboy you’ve made your positions clear—and if anyone thinks you have the first idea what “class” is, they could do a lot worse than read you here. (“the working class is where people say breasts, not titties.”) you claim to have read the book—well, i’m sorry, Brendan, but i don’t believe you, and your sudden, self-serving pivot to a Jesse Singal-style more-in-sorrow-than-anger pout doesn’t persuade me. Your readers will decide, of course. And of course it goes without saying that plenty of people have read my book and absolutely hated it! You’re just not one of them. 1h
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@grace.lavery.pangolin all I know about class is being brought up by working class Irish immigrants in a working class Irish immigrant community in London. Beyond that, nothing! Never even done Class Studies x 1h
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@burntoakboy very odd perspective. but there’s an old idea—probably too “university” for the likes of you—i’m sure you’re more “school of hard knocks!”—called “class consciousness.” you might be interested! but then, i suppose, if being a thing is the only thing that entitles one to talk about a thing, perhaps not. i feel like there’s a name for that kind of “identity-based” politics—tip of my tongue… 1h
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@grace.lavery.pangolin is it racism? I encounter so many over educated people who think I’m racist because I’m working class. So rad. Yeh I’ve read Lukacs, I joined the Revolutionary communist party, I know about class consciousness lol. And it definitely doesn’t involve saying “working class women DO call their breasts titties bro”. 1h
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@burntoakboy i mean i think you’re racist because of that deranged and lurid paragraph with which you ended your review of my book. i believe that you’re working-class, but you write like boris johnson. in re. the absolutely insane question you’ve tried to raise of what working class women call their breasts, how about this: working class women call their breasts whatever they want to, because what someone calls their breasts has absolutely nothing to do with their relationship to labor or proximity to capital. and it’s both creepy and patriarchal to try to imply that women should adhere to your approved vocabulary if they want their class position to be legible. like, this is very elementary, and i doubt there’s anyone reading this who would agree with you. which is why you need to scream GRACE LAVERY IS A MAN in order to feel comfortable talking about feminism. you’ve got nothing to say, you’re just trying to discredit me. well, good luck—those trolls you were trying to placate seem very pleased with your work. Helen Joyce is wringing her hands about my book on Twitter, etc etc. 1h
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@grace.lavery.pangolin you think I’m racist because of a paragraph in which I called out racism? The working class community I come from opposed racism in every form it was presented to us, and that inspired my politics throughout my life. That might be hard for a tenured, anti-Brexit, well-paid academic like you to believe, but there were are. I’m against racism for the same reason I’m against the kind of sexism I believe your book expresses — because I believe everyone is deserving of humanity. I think we’re done now. Good luck! I hope you are happy. 1h
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@grace.lavery.pangolin I really did not know that people with this argumentative style existed beyond eighth grade jesus fuck how can there be this much bad faith in one sitting... Like honestly... It's mind boggling... I prefer the open transphobes their diatribes are easier to parse 1h
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@trains_trans i don’t know if it’s bad faith or just intellectual weakness. but in any case, i think this has been a really instructive failure-to-have-a-conversation and i’m grateful to brendan for coming and shitting the bed so thoroughly over here. 1h
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Typical Joe meltdown: sarcastic or imperious tone, shrieking over one tiny and irrelevant error, accusing O'Neill of not having read the book when it is abundantly clear from the detail in O'Neill's review that O'Neill did read it.
Meanwhile I didn't screencap this shit but handmaids are responding to O'Neill's (valid) critique that women do not refer to their breasts as "titties" by shrieking, "I call mine funbags!!!!" "I call mine titties!" etc. Idiots.
Moving on:
One of Joe's school friends is a playwright. Joe went to see his play and hilariously takes credit for inspiring the dude.
Best for last, this incredible Instagram story. "My characteristic refusal to acknowledge need."
This fiercely independent queen who never takes help from no one can't get himself to the Post Office?
Re: the "medicine" that he's running out of: could be titty skittles, could be a prescription to treat his gout, or could be something else entirely.
Roundup of Joe continuing to absolutely seethe in Instagram stories (black text is screenshots from O'Neill's review, pink text is Joe's response):
Re the "slutty skirt" thing, you can read it right there in the screenshot that O'Neill does not say "all women are sluts." He's pointing out that Joe revels in applying a sexist term like "slutty" to himself (which he definitely does--see the previous 200 pages of this thread with Joe stroking his wiener while calling himself "bitch," "cunt," "milf," "slut," etc etc). This is not difficult to understand; Joe willfully misunderstanding is a classic hallmark of his arguments.
Ah yes, now the hanger-on is identifying as not merely a woman but a working-class woman, who would totally use working-class woman words for woman things.
I probably will read it, this summer, when I get more time. I downloaded it using the link that somebody provided many pages back. I'll provide a book report if anyone still cares by then, with choice quotes, though it'll be hard to match O'Neill.
Yes, he's been extremely cautious never to make that specific claim, and keeps challenging a variety of people for "receipts" when they (reasonably) assume that he takes the TWAW line as most TW do, or at least the ones that make a big public squawk. Joe has been walking a very careful rhetorical line whenever he talks about his own identity. I think it's a long-term debate strategy on his part. He's setting up this trap for the unwary to fall into so he can crow about how unsophisticated they are, and by contrast how magnificently consistent and nuanced his own positions are. Unlike many on this site, I don't think Joe lacks intelligence. Intelligent people are perfectly capable of being wrong about many moral and factual matters, because intelligence is not the only factor involved in coming to decent/accurate conclusions. Joe is, among other things, meaner than shit, and he dresses the meanness up as righteousness. Any dispute between him and someone else *must* be down to bad faith or stupidity on their part. Oddly enough, although he always interprets criticism or counterargument in the least charitable way possible, I actually don't think he's doing that in bad faith himself. I think it's perfectly sincere delusion (another thing which is entirely compatible with intelligence). He really, really believes he's on the side of the angels. This is what I find so fasincating about both him and Mallory.
Wow, Joe is fucking seething hard today. Kudos to O'Neill for triggering him this hard, it must be like trying to have a conversation with the embodiment of this guy:
Also, you'd think that someone as educated (albeit beyond the capacity of their actual intellect) as Joe would know that absolutely no-one outside of a faculty meeting cares about your PhD, and insisting on random people using it outside of a professional/academic context just makes you the kind of wildly insecure retard that other PhDs laugh at.
No-one cares, Joe, stop embarrassing yourself. The only reason you're even trying to insist that he call you by your title - and to be fair to him, O'Neill gets this on the nose in one immediately - is class privilege.
Joe knows that his arguments and the contents of his toilet paper novella are much too flimsy to stand on their own merits, so he has to resort to the most transparent argumentum ad authoritatem imaginable. Thanks for compiling it for us @Potatis Salad - he's so assblasted about it, it's hysterical to watch. It's easy to see why he turned down the UnHerd debate with Helen Joyce, although it makes his refusal even more disappointing for TERFs. If he gets this far up his own ass in a frothing rage about one scathing review online, and feels to need to go on pages-long demented tirades in the comments section where we get to see him type "GRACE LAVERY IS A MAN" in caps lock himself, just imagine what he'd be like trying to keep his shit together in a live debate with an actual woman. He'd probably shit himself in sheer rage and start flinging lumps of it at her like a rabid chimp. It would be so, so, sooo easy to goad him into saying all kinds of shit that would be so far beyond the pale I wouldn't be surprised if he got fucking sectioned, or whatever the equivalent is in Bongland. At the very least, he would be so utterly deranged that the resulting footage would provide enough pro-TERF propaganda for the next decade at least.
I'm not entirely sure what you think you're accomplishing in the greater scheme of "capitalist oligarchs" but I can promise you that you'd be doing far better work to contribute to society by volunteering at your local soup kitchen.
”). i can’t think of a more discrediting set of defenses of your shoddy position than these replies—piling lie on classist, patriarchal lie—all in order to avoid answering a direct question: why did you pretend to read my book, and attribute to it not one but several positions that it criticizes from the diametrical opposite position? but who cares. enjoy the (i assume substantial) wealth you have extracted out of the disgusted of tunbridge wells whom you have, rather brilliantly, persuaded are a revolutionary class. i bet you have a very nice car.
you can carry on those delusions of being a beaten-down working class hero for ~women~ against those ~scary trans monsters~ for a little bit longer I suppose!
