Russian Invasion of Ukraine Megathread

[Butter Lover]

I think you'll find they can
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It doesn't really matter what the governments of Russia, or Ukranine, or the US, or whoever say. That's just for public consumption by dumbass voters. The guys in charge all wanted this war and did what they could do to make it happen.

Like in WW1, where the official explanations were about defending poor little Serbia (lol) or Britain's "commitment" to defend France (double lol), or the Lusitania (underwater lol). None of that stuff caused the war, the war happened because powerful men on all sides wanted it to happen, and whipped their respective publics into a frenzy of patriotic let's-go-die-ism thru excuses and wacky tales about how Germans were cutting the hands off babies, bombing hospitals and trying to take over the world somehow. Nothing has changed since 1914 except you can put a gay little flag on your social media avatar now, instead of having to put a gay little flag on your house or whatever.

all this talk of ww1 had me all nostalgic

 

[Based Boy]

Okay, but now imagine the legitimate Canadian PM Justin Trudeau had ordered the police to crack down on the trucker protesters, and their course of action was to fire steel slugs meant to disable engine blocks into the crowd rather than bean bags or rubber bullets. Castro Trudeau then decides to flee to Cuba for fear of being prosecuted, along with some of his ministers and attorney general. Without a PM, the still legitimate parliament votes to relieve him of his duties.
Maricon Macron floods Quebec with weapons and equipment to fight a separatist war, to the point that a French Roland missile system shoots down an airliner. Quebecois even post their cheers on social media not knowing it was a civilian flight, assuming it was a Canadian air force transport aircraft.
Canada gets buttmad about the French separatism and removes French as an official language.
France cannot concern-troll about French-Canadians getting slaughtered when in this case France wanted this civil war to happen to justify French invasion. It's not a question of sitting there and watching, it's actively supporting the existence of the conflict.

But what threat France alone can be to the USA. The problem is France does not have whole of West under it's belt, US does. That's why i proposed Comintern as alternative to NATO and not just single nation. If Ukraine openly proclaimed their neutrality (No NATO) and gave special status to DNR/LNR, there would not be a war (and if there was one, it would be very unpopular one.)
Also, the whole ordeal about protests and who shot who is simply a matter of who you support. It might be simple orange revolution, might be genuine pro-western protest . Though it is strange that Zelensky just "lost" all documents pertaining to sniper fire at Maidan.
The same deal is with separatists - were they founded by Kremlin beforehand, were they organic or is it a mix of the two? If you have pro-Western views - they are nothing more than Putin puppets even before 2014. If you are pro-Russian - they are nothing more than true Russian patriots who seek to reunite with greater motherland, abused and killed by Ukrainian regime. I assume both of those are true to some extent, but how much there is one over the other is hard for me to determinate.
About wanting war - i know there was two Minsk agreements that wasn't followed, Putin has putdown most rabid pro-unification officials from LNR/DNR, Zelensky tried to pull out forces from DNR/LNR, but was threatened with coup by solders. So i don't know who wanted this war. Overall Russian plan was to force special status for DNR and LNR and have it's influence on Ukraine through them.(Though it's kind of hearsay, so you can discard talk "about war" if you have something more solid, i can't provide any sources for my claims).
And why war could not be avoided in 2022 is simple. If Putin let DNR/LNR die out, he will lose all political capital and would look weak. Also, Russians would not understand why he let people of LNR and DNR die for nothing. It might have been the end for him, if he would do nothing in this situation.

 

[Pocket Dragoon]

Sabaton song about DPR when?

It must happen. It will happen.

@A_throwaway_name62919
I'd wager on them writing a song about Ukraine long before the DPR. But I doubt they'd write a song about either side until the dust has settled one way or another.

Not Sabaton; but DakhaBrakha/Dakh Daughters did one on the subject a few years ago.

 

[kuuu]

Ukrainian POWs writing a request to the head of DPR about giving them Russian citizenship.

 

[DumbDude42]

This social lift collapsed with the USSR. After Yeltsin and his cronies replaced planned economy with laissez-faire capitalism, a fresh crop of oligarchs emerged by robbing and murdering their way through the nineties. The initial stage of accumulation of capital is never pretty, and the criminal situation in Russia back then can attest to that, but by 2000 the dust settled, Putin came and restored a semblance of order and the new aristocracy entrenched its positions.

the thing about this situation in 90s russia is that basically nothing like it has ever happened before, anywhere.

in 'normal' market economies, accumulation of capital was a process that happened slowly and gradually, over the course of many decades, sometimes centuries, with many large capital owners coming into their position by slowly growing an initially small business until it becomes very large, and their wealth grows along with it.
this is how the big industrialists of the 19th and 20th century came to dominate the economy in those times, and this is still how men like bezos, gates or musk came to dominate it today.

but soviet communism outlawed that process, for over half a century all economic activity was state owned and state controlled, business ownership did not exist, being an entrepreneur was illegal.
so when yeltsin decided he wanted a market eceonomy - well how do you get that when every person in the country has only ever known a communist command economy? who will run things, who will do business?
the idea of bringing in a bunch of foreign capitalists to take over and run shit was obviously not appealing to anybody, but no private person inside russia had any free market business experience either, nor any capital to get something started, so due to a lack of alternatives, things eventually just ended up falling into the hands of well connected members of the former soviet political and bureaucratic class, resulting in oligarchy to the extreme.

looking back, the idea that russia could simply skip past the slow, century long buildup that brought the capitalist states of the west to where they are today was pretty naive and obviously doomed to fail.
but on the other hand, i don't really see what yeltsin and his pals could have done differently to make things go smoother, he was in a pretty impossible situation all things considered.

 

[Borscht]

but on the other hand, i don't really see what yeltsin and his pals could have done differently to make things go smoother, he was in a pretty impossible situation all things considered.

Take a page out of China's book and transition to capitalist economy without demolishing the existing one? Not an economist, but it seems to me that we have a successful example of that happening in China.

 

[Kane Lives]

Take a page out of China's book and transition to capitalist economy without demolishing the existing one? Not an economist, but it seems to me that we have a successful example of that happening in China.

China did have the advantage of not having oligarchs trying to steal and sell everything that isn't nailed down in order to enrich themselves. (Also helps that they didn't inherit an already brittle economy that was stretched thin, since they started with practically nothing.)

 

[White_N]

"Our wounded will die, those alive will die fighting. Civvies are dying with us here in bunkers, in private houses, multi-story buildings, where they are being shot to death."

"My main message today:

 

[DumbDude42]

Take a page out of China's book and transition to capitalist economy without demolishing the existing one? Not an economist, but it seems to me that we have a successful example of that happening in China.

china succeeded at this yes, but china was intact at the time. russia on the other hand had just lost a huge chunk of territory, population and industrial capacity to the ussr breakup, along with its vassal states in eastern europe that used to be major trade partners.
china also still had a totalitarian political system in place, a state apparatus that was powerful enough to exercise absolute control over any aspect of society it wanted, while post soviet russia was very chaotic and state power was at an all time low.

if anything, it was during gorbachevs time that the USSR maybe still had an opportunity to do china style economic reforms while keeping the social and political aspects of society locked down and under control. but they basically did the opposite: the eceonomy continued to stagnate and deteriorate, while the social and political situation was opened up to dissent and opposition, which ended up ripping the union apart.

 

[Based Boy]

@Borscht

 

[White_N]

Dude, they didn't ban all opposition parties They banned 11

Your honor, I didn't genoside any Jews. I killed only six million of them.

 

[Elbereth]

Your honor, I didn't genoside any Jews. I killed only six million of them.

Of 11, one was in parliament.

One. The same one which was lead by russian oligarch

 

[Uncle Buck]

Of 11, one was in parliament.

One. The same one which was lead by russian oligarch

If you actually believed in what you call democracy, one voice being silenced - no matter how much that voice offends you - is one too many.

And by the way, Medvechuck is not Russian.

 

[White_N]

@Borscht
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Stability will be protected thanks to Leonardo.

 

[Elbereth]

If you actually believed in what you call democracy, one voice being silenced - no matter how much that voice offends you - is one too many.

The horror of banning Putin puppet while his army invaded your country

Vatnik cries in pain as he strikes you

 

[Uncle Buck]

The horror of banning Putin puppet while his army invaded your country

Vatnik cries in pain as he strikes you

The Ukrainian politician you incorrectly refer to as Russian - because you're a maleducated, propaganda-pimping, subhuman p[r]olish dunce - was banned along with numerous others from participating in your favored Ukroswine DUHmocracy long before the events of February 2022.

 

[Elbereth]

The Ukrainian politician you incorrectly refer to as Russian - because you're a maleducated, propaganda-pimping dunce - was banned along with numerous others from participating in your favored Ukroswine DUHmocracy long before the events of February 2022.

You mean Viktor Medvedchuk? He was removed from positon of co-chairman in his party 8 of march 2022

https://lb.ua/news/2022/03/08/508614_boyko_stav_golovoyu_politradi_opzzh.html

 

[Ward]

It takes only one a&n retard to turn three pages of this thread into shit

 

[Elbereth]

There is a lot to complain in Ukraine and their respect for rule of law and so forth, but complying that they ban russian agents during war with russia is next level, mind bending stupidity

 

[White_N]

Of 11, one was in parliament.

One. The same one which was lead by russian oligarch

OK, with what kind of logic do you throw away 10 political parties out of your mind and declare there is no ban on them?