Russian Invasion of Ukraine Megathread

How well is the war this going for Russia?

  • ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ Blyatskrieg

    Votes: 249 10.6%
  • ⭐⭐⭐⭐ I ain't afraid of no Ghost of Kiev

    Votes: 278 11.8%
  • ⭐⭐⭐ Competent attack with some upsets

    Votes: 796 33.7%
  • ⭐⭐ Stalemate

    Votes: 659 27.9%
  • ⭐ Ukraine takes back Crimea 2022

    Votes: 378 16.0%

  • Total voters
    2,360
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Here's a minute of funny.

>Basically, we're out of money
>we send 33 billions dollars to Ukraine anyway


To every single american that voted for pedo joe and still believe they matter. :suffering: You're just liretal subhumans to them and a fuel for meat grinder, mark my words.
injecting the money into ukraines defense budget is unironically a better use for it than at least 95% of the other shit the burger govt does with money tbh
same with military hardware, sending rocket launchers and vehicles to ukraine is a better use for them than anything else they could realistically be used for

this applies even more to european countries. like, what else are they gonna do with their tanks and guns? only reason these countries even have standing armies and operational equipment at all is to guard against a potential russian invasion, and that's currently happening, so might as well use all that stuff to fight russians in ukraine today rather than let it sit in storage for another year and then have to use it to fight russians anyway, only this time in estonia/poland/finland instead of in ukraine.
 
Charles du Gaulle was not adamant France should not be in NATO. He didn't even pull France out of NATO, per se. He withdrew from NATO's unified military command in 1966. This was done to maintain sole French control over France's military. There were various other tensions at the time as well, like French suspicions of the Anglo-US alliance, French refusal to allow foreign nuclear weapons on French soil, and France's early recognition of the People's Republic of China. Anyways you're dead wrong. The whole point of NATO was collective defense as a deterrent to World War 3. If nothing else the current war has revitalized NATO in ways even the bombing of Yugoslavia or the 9/11 attacks never could.
The three points of NATO as articulated by the British, were "keep the Americans in, the Soviets out, and the Germans down".

All the propaganda about NATO focused mostly on the "keep the soviets out" part of the equation, and to a lesser extent "the Americans in". The whole part about "Keep[ing] the Germans Down" was left unmentioned, but that was a critical part of the NATO tripod. The entire post war European order was not just built on defending against the commies, it was also built on making sure European countries that were not Commie didn't get involved in fights with each other. The Greeks and Turks are patient zero for this one it should be noted. If not for NATO those two would have gone at it years ago. There are other issues out there too though. Hungary and Romania? Spain and Britain? Lots of Frozen conflicts in Europe that America is presently sitting on.

The French (correctly) saw NATO as a British plot to upend the entire concert of Europe. They eventually came around to the idea, but only after Algeria handed them their ass and they realized the days of Empire were done.
 
this is dumb cause yugoslavia/serbia was never part of or associated with nato

but it makes me wonder: imagine if pre collapse yugoslavia had joined nato, how would nato have handled the breakup? how would nato deal with things like rebellions, civil wars, and separatist uprisings inside of a nato member state? have the americans ever stated a position on this?
 
this is dumb cause yugoslavia/serbia was never part of or associated with nato

but it makes me wonder: imagine if pre collapse yugoslavia had joined nato, how would nato have handled the breakup? how would nato deal with things like rebellions, civil wars, and separatist uprisings inside of a nato member state? have the americans ever stated a position on this?
As far as I know there's not been much publicly released about such situations. As to Yugoslavia being able to join NATO though, I doubt it would have happened. That region breaking up wasn't a complete surprise, you can actually find old intelligence assessments that relatively accurately predicted how a breakup of the country would go. The US considered it a major victory that yugoslavia chose its own third position. Cold war nato wouldn't have wanted to bother with the troubles that came along with admitting them.
 
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The three points of NATO as articulated by the British, were "keep the Americans in, the Soviets out, and the Germans down".

All the propaganda about NATO focused mostly on the "keep the soviets out" part of the equation, and to a lesser extent "the Americans in". The whole part about "Keep[ing] the Germans Down" was left unmentioned, but that was a critical part of the NATO tripod. The entire post war European order was not just built on defending against the commies, it was also built on making sure European countries that were not Commie didn't get involved in fights with each other. The Greeks and Turks are patient zero for this one it should be noted. If not for NATO those two would have gone at it years ago. There are other issues out there too though. Hungary and Romania? Spain and Britain? Lots of Frozen conflicts in Europe that America is presently sitting on.

The French (correctly) saw NATO as a British plot to upend the entire concert of Europe. They eventually came around to the idea, but only after Algeria handed them their ass and they realized the days of Empire were done.
Basically this, NATO was mostly to ensure Western Europe was a "No Commies" club, and in the collapse of the Soviets and Warsaw Pact was to try and keep peace in Europe. Given how Europeans sperging out lead to two wars lasting a total of barely a decade that killed close to 100 million combined at the bare minimum, that's probably a good thing.
 
The entire point of NATO is to freeze the borders of Europe
Are you fucking serious? Have you ever heard of Yugoslavia? Serbia? If the point of NATO was to actually freeze the borders of Europe, why didn't they help the side that actually controlled Kosovo before the war? Instead they just bombed the shit out of them and aided a seperatist movement, fucking up their borders.

If Russia was to join NATO, it would have had to settle all its outstanding border disputes. ALL of them. The one with Japan, the one with Georgia, the one with Moldova, the one with Poland and Lithuania (lets not forget Konigsberg here), the ones with Ukraine, etc etc etc. Was it honestly possible for Russia to give up ALL its extant territorial claims and submit itself to the American hammer to keep it within its borders?
So that's why Turkey relinquished all control of Cyprus when they joined, right? Or why they were kicked out when they invaded in 1973? Or why Spain is still disputing Gibraltar? The French immediately going to war with Vietnam not even two years after the end of WW2?

To America, Russia was not the primary target
This is patently untrue. Post-WW2 there was cooperations but both sides fundamentally hated each other, do you think vehemenet anti-communist sentiment was for the hell of it? Do you think the US supplied the Mujahideen because they were free and democratic people who respected human rights? You could try to slither your way out of it by saying "Oh the USSR is technically not Russia", but for any American who has been alive for the last 100 years it has always been Communism=USSR=Russia.

And lets also not forget the final part of this. Membership in NATO requires an open referendum (supervised by the USA) to approve membership. Would the RUSSIAN people have accepted these terms? Would they have accepted American monitors to oversee their own vote? And then being bottled into the broken shell of their former empire by American fiat? Of course not.
Considering that Yelstein and Putin (very early) were pro-western, I would say there could have been a very reasonable compromise. The Russian people at that point were particularly vuneralble given their entire fucking government collapsed, quality of life deteriorated quickly, and many former states had declared soverignty, so yes, I would think they would be open so long as concessions were made reasonable for both sides. They just wouldn't want to be treated like any other member dependent because they still had a military and a vast supply of weaponry.

only in as much as it wanted to alter the boundaries of Europe.
I don't think I understand what you are trying to imply here? That the United State's involvement with NATO is purley reactionary to Russia trying to expand its borders?

The USA is basically NATO in Europe, it may not be considered its official territory, but that does not mean that the abundant military presence combined with its expansion east post-soviet collapse implies that the USA thought of NATO as purely defensive against Russia's expansionism.

The reason EU federalists want their own army is because they know they are under the USA's discretion. Countries voluntarily join not because they love NATO and America's military industrial complex so much, but because it's the only other option. An offer that they cannot refuse.
 
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Brand new store opened in Melitopol, Zaporozhskaya province. Not really, there was a Ukrainian brand ATB there previously.
Prices are in both rubles and hrivnas.
Dude didn't comment on the prices being higher or lower much so I guess they are kept on the same level. He only mentioned price for cheese seemingly being cheaper in rubles, but that's it.

Nice beer, Very fitting.
Screenshot (120).png

Found a longer vid from a different author.
Comments are saying that prices are higher, but there are those shitting on the store along the lines of "convenience store built on blood and shieeet" so comment section is seemingly compromised.
 
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Basically this, NATO was mostly to ensure Western Europe was a "No Commies" club, and in the collapse of the Soviets and Warsaw Pact was to try and keep peace in Europe. Given how Europeans sperging out lead to two wars lasting a total of barely a decade that killed close to 100 million combined at the bare minimum, that's probably a good thing.

I think NATO and the EU are just "rings" in the "One Ring to Jew them all" strategy.
 
The goal is making Europe, Americas bitch. Russia could have, and still can, join NATO if it wants to be Americas bitch.

We all know that is not going to happen. So the entire argument over mean America not letting Russia into NATO is false. Russia is welcome to join anytime it wants.
So a country not wanting to be a bitch to America is not considered an unfair, hypocritical, and egregious proposition? I don't understand how that doesn't make the USA wrong. A country thousands of miles away being the de facto continental police would not appeal to anyone who is self-sufficient enough to maintain its own military and nuclear arsenal. There is this abstract concept called diplomacy for a reason that isn't to be used for blackmail or unconditional surrenders.

This may be hard to understand, but being uncompromising is seen as unwarranted disrespect when your entire country just collapsed. Saying that Russia can join at any time is misleading at best and malicious at worst. If you want to actually achieve peace, the first step is to get your head out of your rectal cavity. It's the same reason that the dumbass Americans want the complete denuclearization of North Korea even though it isn't the 1990s anymore. You can't expect every country to be subservient if there are differeing militaristic capabilities, that definitely makes America the shithead. The arrogance and incapability of understanding nuance is astounding.

Basically this, NATO was mostly to ensure Western Europe was a "No Commies" club, and in the collapse of the Soviets and Warsaw Pact was to try and keep peace in Europe. Given how Europeans sperging out lead to two wars lasting a total of barely a decade that killed close to 100 million combined at the bare minimum, that's probably a good thing.
I don't think NATO's presence has subsided western European conflict as much as nuclear war, and the lack of incentive due to a strong economic union. Plenty of Non-NATO members have had peace, including some post soviet states. Not because they were afraid the big bad USA was watching over their every move, but that it is more beneficial to trade with your neighbors as it exponentially increases economic development. In modern day, economies are more important than ever due to the interconnectivity of the world. Technological innovation is key in ensuring your relevance.
 
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I don't think NATO's presence has subsided western European conflict as much as nuclear war, and the lack of incentive due to a strong economic union.
Now yes, but in the early to mid cold war? Not so much. NATO could probably stop existing today without too many major conflicts breaking out, but early on was an entirely different story.
 
So a country not wanting to be a bitch to America is not considered an unfair, hypocritical, and egregious proposition? I don't understand how that doesn't make the USA wrong. A country thousands of miles away being the de facto continental police would not appeal to anyone who is self-sufficient enough to maintain its own military and nuclear arsenal. There is this abstract concept called diplomacy for a reason that isn't to be used for blackmail or unconditional surrenders.

This may be hard to understand, but being uncompromising is seen as unwarranted disrespect when your entire country just collapsed. Saying that Russia can join at any time is misleading at best and malicious at worst. If you want to actually achieve peace, the first step is to get your head out of your rectal cavity. It's the same reason that the dumbass Americans want the complete denuclearization of North Korea even though it isn't the 1990s anymore. You can't expect every country to be subservient if there are differeing militaristic capabilities, that definitely makes America the shithead. The arrogance and incapability of understanding nuance is astounding.
Only in as far as what America wants in exchange for peace is unreasonable. As has been pointed out consistently, America happily makes nice with dictators who tow the line. America is not an expansionist superpower, which is a unique aberration of history. Its not interested in invading and taking over territory, nor engaging in regime change with countries that get along with it. Canada and Mexico certainly can't step too far outside the American sphere of influence, and do something like host a Chinese airbase. But beyond that they are not in any danger of the US sending tanks over their border either.

American leaders have too a large extent huffed their own product on this front. America is the agent of peace in Europe after thousands of years. Pax Americana has restored the western world to order for the first time since the Goths sacked Rome. Anyone who wants to upset that apple cart is a barbarian. There are no doubt nuances too this, but at a fundamental level it HAS worked. The French in Strasbourg don't go to sleep every night worrying about Germans going over the border while they are asleep. The Danes are not worried about the Swedes sweeping in from the north for whatever reason, and even tiny Luxembourg is safe and sound with no worries at all.

I suppose its all a matter of perspective. Is America a shit head for presiding over the longest period of peace in Europe, ever? Maybe. But it does have its perks.
I don't think NATO's presence has subsided western European conflict as much as nuclear war, and the lack of incentive due to a strong economic union. Plenty of Non-NATO members have had peace, including some post soviet states. Not because they were afraid the big bad USA was watching over their every move, but that it is more beneficial to trade with your neighbors as it exponentially increases economic development. In modern day, economies are more important than ever because of the interconnectivity of the world. Technological innovation is key in ensuring your relevance.
Now this is not true at all. Actually quite the opposite. Nuclear war is a dead mans switch, and game theory is very clear that the more players in the game, the more unstable it is. That is why the US has been adamant against nuclear proliferation. Another unstated goal of NATO is to make sure the nuclear club is not expanded. Germany, Spain and Italy could develop nukes. But they won't. Because America won't let them .
 
We all know that is not going to happen. So the entire argument over mean America not letting Russia into NATO is false. Russia is welcome to join anytime it wants.

That's like saying that Russia would have been Napoleon's ally forever when that's just not true since Napoleon created a Polish puppet state and the continental system severely harmed Russia's economy.

These kind of issues would have popped up if Russia joined NATO since the U.S. would eventually encroach into Russia's sphere of influence (Russia has never relinquished it's sphere of influence) and the subsequent independent action of Russia against that encroachment means that the authority of the alliance over Russia would have been nominal at best and would eventually end up in Russia leaving NATO.

It's just a fact that Russia's relation with NATO is always going to be either hostile or strained.
 
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It's a great breaching tool, and if you're suddenly one-one it can come in handy, but its use as an offensive weapon is not recommended by anyone.

It's not a "big ass axe", it's lighter, smaller and easier to wield. It's for killing for when people need killing. It's not for sneaking up on someone.
you mean to tell me mel gibson lied to me? :(
Mel Gibson.jpg
 
Now yes, but in the early to mid cold war? Not so much. NATO could probably stop existing today without too many major conflicts breaking out, but early on was an entirely different story.
NATO peace only works because it is a defensive alliance with nukes, not just a defensive alliance. Later comes lack of economic incentive, but it's important that the former begets the latter. A non-nuclear NATO would have fail miserably, see: the League of Nations

As has been pointed out consistently, America happily makes nice with dictators who tow the line.
Except that the standard is that they are completely subservient to America, even if it means the decimation of quality of life. This was most apparent as in Cuba and Vietnam. It is not just a risky move to implement a puppet government, it is completely idiotic if you are ignorant of country and its people. Not only will there be extraordinary resentment about the populace towards already being exploitative, but also towards who is sponsoring and controlling them. This is why sanctions fail to work on the likes of North Korea, Venezuela, and Cuba like the US intended. The regime may be oppressive and exploit its people, but debilitating sanctions give a perfect scapegoat to propagate as to why shit is bad.

Canada and Mexico certainly can't step too far outside the American sphere of influence, and do something like host a Chinese airbase. But beyond that they are not in any danger of the US sending tanks over their border either.
Canada is basically the US culturally, not really anything insightful. To spoil the relationship entirely would be to embargo their oil imports, or some unthinkable form of sabotage. Mexico and the US have had a tumultuous relationship especially in regards to border disputes, their alliance is vastly different in that 81% of all their exports come from America. Mexico has also remained neutral in the sanctioning of Russia in the Ukraine war, and has been tying itself closer with china in recent years.

Only in as far as what America wants in exchange for peace is unreasonable.
You are not at liberty™ to dicate what is unreasonable and isn't for other countries. That is a fundamental misunderstanding of diplomacy.

America is not an expansionist superpower, which is a unique aberration of history. Its not interested in invading and taking over territory, nor engaging in regime change with countries that get along with it.
Oh my god :story:

American leaders have too a large extent huffed their own product on this front. America is the agent of peace in Europe after thousands of years. Pax Americana has restored the western world to order for the first time since the Goths sacked Rome. Anyone who wants to upset that apple cart is a barbarian. There are no doubt nuances too this, but at a fundamental level it HAS worked. The French in Strasbourg don't go to sleep every night worrying about Germans going over the border while they are asleep. The Danes are not worried about the Swedes sweeping in from the north for whatever reason, and even tiny Luxembourg is safe and sound with no worries at all.
I think you're deterring for the point I was trying to make. I'm not insinuating that NATO did not help at all in the facilitation of peace among the Western European countries, in fact the Marshall plan was the most helpful piece of legislation given to the decimated post war economies of Europe. I'm saying that it is more complex than you suggesting that it was only done through the US's presence within NATO. It wouldn't have worked had it not been for the aforementioned reasons I stated of economic development and Nukes

Now this is not true at all. Actually quite the opposite. Nuclear war is a dead mans switch, and game theory is very clear that the more players in the game, the more unstable it is. That is why the US has been adamant against nuclear proliferation. Another unstated goal of NATO is to make sure the nuclear club is not expanded. Germany, Spain and Italy could develop nukes. But they won't. Because America won't let them .
At no point in my argument did I mention unfettered distribution of nukes. When I refer to nuclear war, I mean mutually assured destruction. I agree that current NATO with its alliance has maintained peace, just not the fact it's because NATO exists. Here's what I mean by that: NATO is essentially another League of Nations or historical defensive coalition if not for nukes.

There would be no peace in Europe. Two military superpowers that fundamentally oppose each other, coming off a victory without nuclear weapons and their consequences would almost immediately lead to WW3 post-WW2. It is highly likely that the war would take place in Europe. The former incentive of fear begets the latter incentive of economic development.

However, America's paranoid and aggressive attitude about nuclear proliferation has counterintuitively lead to nations out of it's sphere of influence to have a nuclear program of their own, ie. North Korea. They now have a bargaining chip but the US is too arrogant to negotiate anything less than the complete disassembly of their Nuclear Program. If you think saying "Tough shit, I don't trust you with anything less", then you have failed as a diplomat. You cannot be an enforcer everywhere, and think what you define as reasonable is something that they have to confide to. In order for it to be successful that has to be mutually agreed upon.
 
@Givi i base my opinions off of maps, and the simple truth is the glorious Russian victories on the Khersom and Kharkiv front have been moving towards and away from both city centers respectively, for the last month. Is Ukraine losing soldiers? yes. Is Ukraine losing soldiers in towns further and further away from Russian offensive objectives? Also yes. Has Russia advanced into ANY portion of the pre-2014 Donbass front other Izium? No.

So we can argue over videos and overall statements all we want. I am looking at the map, and the Map says Russia has failed to take any major objective and is losing ground. We can write entire paragraphs to try and explain why or why not this is true, but at the end of the day the map does not lie.
You keep embarrassing yourself I your "analysis", little doggy. Shu.

Also, you do realize that maps of combat engagements might be highly biased, not correct or simply out of date?

Of course you don't.
 
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